Georgia Changes for Flavour and Accuracy

[Delurker]

I’d like to make some suggestions for how to improve Georgia in the game.


First I’d like to suggest some dynamic province names:

Spoiler

12 Sjælland - Zelandia


41 Koenigsberg – Kenigsbergi


50 Berlin – Berlini


85 Koeln - K'elni


97 Holland - Holandia


101 Genoa - Genua


102 Nice – Nitsa


110 Trent - Trento


112 Venezia – Venetsia


113 Ferrara - Ferara


115 Pisa - Piza


116 Firenze -Florentsia


118 Roma – Romi


121 Napoli – Neapoli


134 Wien - Vena


144 Epirus – Epiri?


146 Athens – Ateni


147 Thessaly – Tesalia?


148 Macedonia - Mak'edonia


149 Edirne – Adrianopoli


150 Tarnovo – Tirnovo?


151 Constantinople - (Istanbul = Stanbuli; Constantinople = K'onst'ant'inop'oli)


153 Pest – Peshti?


163 Crete - Kreta


183 Paris – P’arizi


236 London - Londoni


257 Warszawa – Varshava


262 Krakow - Krakovi


280 Kiev - Kievi


284 Crimea – Qirimi


286 Azov – Azovi (I think)


287 Kuban – Jiketi


(N.B. Kuban should have alternative name if Circassia takes it - Pshyze)


295 Moskva – Mosk’ovi


310 Novgorod – (Didi) Novgorodi – “Didi” means “The Great”, like “Velikiy Novgorod” in Russian


317 Hüdavendigar – Bursa (or Brusa)


319 Mentese – Menteshe?


320 Rhodes – Rodosi


321 Cyprus - K'vip'rosi


327 Adana - Adana


328 Sinop – Sinopi


329 Sivas - several options – Sebastia probably best


330 Trebizond - T'rap'izoni


331 Erzurum - Karnu-Kalaki is probably the best choice


365 Sinai - Sinai


379 Jerusalem – Ierusalimi


382 Damascus - Damask'i


410 Baghdad - Baghdadi


411 Mosul – Mosuli

Edit to add: 416 Tabriz - Tavrizi

418 Diyarbakir - Diarbakiri


419 Yerevan – Erivani/Erebuni


421 Shirvan = Shirvani


424 Ardabil - Ardebili


428 Teheran - Teirani


429 Isfahan – Ispaani


442 Bukhara - Bukhara


445 Merv - Mervi


454 Samarkand - Samarqandi


462 Mingrelia – Samegrelo - Mingrelia is the Russian name, not the Georgian one. EDIT: on further reading actually Odishi is an even better choice for the name of the province than Samegrelo, which was only really used in the 19th century. Definitely not Mingrelia though.


463 Circassia – Cherkezeti


464 Astrakhan - Ast'rakhani


475 Bashkortostan - Bashk'ireti


522 Delhi – Deli


1765 Sofia – Sofia


1773 Achaea - Akaia


1816 Beijing - P'ek'ini


1855 Sidon - Sidoni


2205 Nakhchivan – Nakhichevani


2208 Terek – Tergi


2218 Shiraz - Shirazi


2306 Mush - Mushi


2307 Van – Vani


2313 Antioch - Ant'iokia


2331 Jeddah – Jida


2348 Chios - Kiosi

Other changes:

My major source for all this is Edge of Empires: a History of Georgia by Donald Rayfield, which as far as I can tell is the most comprehensive study available in English. All the events apart from the baths one are featured in that text. Many of these ideas have been suggested before on these forums but I wanted to collate and polish them a bit, as well as back them up a bit more with sources so they seem more credible to those who don’t know this region very well.

The Darial Pass

The South Caucasus should have a break in the middle for the Darial Pass. It should link Kartli to Alania. The Darial Pass was very important in the history of the region. In the period roughly 1000-1400 the fact that the pass was controlled by Georgians or their allies (the Ossetians) was crucial in stopping Georgia being invaded by the steppe peoples to the North. Later, when Russia finally decisively invaded Georgia at the end of the 1700s, they did so through the Darial Pass. The current situation is ahistorical and encourages powers in the Northern Caucasus to attack via Abkhazia, which was famously difficult and swampy terrain in real life and so was only subdued by the Russian Empire later.

Darbazi

Very minor, but if possible it would be nice to change the “Call Diet” action in the estates tabs to “Call Darbazi”, since that was the name of the roughly equivalent Georgian institution (it was basically the King’s council.) For added flavour, it could increase the influence of the clergy as well as the nobility, as the key religious figures were also invited to darbazis.

Noble influence

A small change that I don’t know how easy it would be to modify, but the common thread for Georgia in this period is a strong and disloyal nobility. It would be good to have higher noble influence as a result, to make it harder to manage that estate. I think there’s a reasonable case for making Georgia a Feudal Monarchy rather than a Despotic Monarchy.

Events:

Currently, Georgia has no events of its own at all. I am aware that it's a bit difficult to create events for Georgia because it spent most of the period hopelessly split, with the West under the thumb of the Ottomans and the East the Persians. For this reason I've gone for cultural achievements because 1) they're not railroady and 2) they are not dependent on the overall geopolitical situation to the same extent. Here are my suggestions. I'm flexible on the effects they have - the aim is to provide flavour for a tag that has no flavour of its own beyond being Orthodox at the moment, not to turn Georgia into some kind of superpower.

Spoiler

Zaza Panaskerteli-Tsitsishvili’s Karabadini


Conditions:


Year = 1486 or so


http://www.medgeo.net/2009/12/25/სამკურნალო-წიგნი-კარაბად/ (kinda has picture – but could just use generic manuscript pic)


(In 1486) Eristavi Zaza Panaskerteli-Tsitsishvili wrote and compiled an important collection of Georgian medical knowledge. Drawing on Galenic and Sumerian ideas, as well as local remedies, the two volumes of the Karabadini describe methods of identifying diseases and how to examine patients. The Karabadini examines both physical and mental illnesses. Mental illnesses are said to be a product of physical issues in the brain, and therefore they require medication, not magic rituals. In Panaskerteli-Tsitsishvili’s opinion, it is necessary to heal the patient using accurate knowledge based on rational methods of treatment.


Our people shall benefit greatly from this work!


Effects:


+10% population growth (same as Medical Evolution event) for 500 days or whatever (maybe lower but for longer?)


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Sayat-Nova

Sayat-Nova was a renowned ashugh (troubadour) singer in the 18th century. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayat-Nova). He was ethnically Armenian but came from Tbilisi and King Erekle II of Georgia patronised him.


The event should fire from 1740 to 1765


"A wandering ashugh who calls himself Sayat-Nova has come to our court singing songs of love and merriment in all the languages of the South Caucasus. Shall we patronise him?"


YES > pay x money, gain prestige


NO > lose prestige


Note: Since Sayat-Nova was ethnically Armenian, it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that if an Armenian state had existed at the time he would have tried to gain patronage there, especially after being banished from Erekle II's court. Therefore I propose this event be assigned to Armenia as well. These days he seems to be more famous in Armenian circles than Georgian ones anyway, thanks to being in The Colour of Pomegranates.

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Year is at least 1675. Year is before 1715



Sulkhan-Saba Orbeliani

Sulkhan-Saba Orbeliani (1658-1725) was a Georgian polymath. He wrote Georgia's first dictionary, wrote a classic of Georgian literature called A Book of Wisdom and Lies when he was only in his 20s, and later was sent as a diplomat to France to try to create an alliance with Louis XIV (Louis died and it came to nothing.) He was also a Catholic monk for a while. Interesting guy. I want to leave the diplomatic stuff out of the blurb because it feels a bit railroady.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulkhan-Saba_Orbeliani


"Sulkhan-Saba Orbeliani (1658-1725) was a Georgian polymath. He wrote A Book of Wisdom and Lies (Tsigni Sibrdzne Sitsruisa), a classic of Georgian literature that uses fables to explore human folly and how to live a more moral life. He also wrote the first Georgian dictionary and was instrumental in the development of printing and literacy in the country."


We are fortunate to have such a talent in our realm.


Effects:

Gain 50 Admin

Gain 10 prestige

(I'd be tempted to have something about increasing institution spread speed here.)


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This event is not *quite* historical. Due to Eastern Georgia's subjugation to the Persians, there was rather little development of urban and social infrastructure there until Vakhtang VI. However, in the game Georgia would almost inevitably have to be independent or they wouldn't be being played, so I think there's a case to be made that they would have invested in this area if they'd had the wherewithal. And there is historical evidence that the baths were being used more by common people in the 17th century. And the oldest still existing bathhouse is from 1726, so well within the timeframe. (http://www.eurasianet.org/node/64912)


Year is at least 1650.


Develop the Tbilisi Baths

We Georgians have been bathing in public baths since the days of the Roman Empire. Indeed our capital Tbilisi was built on hot springs by Vakhtang Gorgasali in the 5th century CE. Since then, we have enjoyed the warm sulphurous waters there. Now, under the cultural influence of the Islamic Empires to our south, the common people and our soldiers have become ever more keen to wash their cares away. We should build more bathhouses to satisfy public demand and show our munificence.


Yes, let us provide for our people in this way.

Pay x money, gain 10 prestige.


No, our people have no need of such amusements.

Lose 5 prestige.

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Growth of Armenian Diaspora

Triggers: Armenia does not exist

Year is at least 1600

“Our fellow Christians the Armenians have begun settling in our fair land. They are bringing prosperity to our capital, but some of our people are uneasy at the presence of so many foreigners in our midst.”


Let them stay!

+2 base tax, +1 unrest in Kartli


We have no need of these interlopers!

Lose 5 prestige?


Context: there were a lot of Armenians in Tbilisi and they actually formed the vast majority of the population in the 19th century.

Finally, I’d like to discuss Georgia’s National Ideas.

Spoiler

Georgia’s current National Ideas:

Traditions:

Traditions:

+50% Hostile core-creation cost on us

−10% Shock damage received



Chance of new heir.png Bagrationi Dynasty

+50% Chance of new heir



Improve relations.png Georgian Isolation

+30% Improve relations



Construction cost.png Restoration of Fortresses and Churches

−10% Construction cost



Income from vassals.png Georgian Protectorates

+20% Income from vassals



Stability cost modifier.png Samouravo Counties

−10% Stability cost modifier



Manpower recovery speed.png Sadrosho Districts

+20% Manpower recovery speed



Diplomatic reputation.png Georgian Embassies

+1 Diplomatic reputation



Idea bonus.png Ambition:

−20% Infantry cost



My comments:

There are a couple of these that stick out as being unfitting. First is Georgian Protectorates. Simply put, during the time period of the game, Georgia basically never had any vassals so I have no idea why this is part of the National Ideas. The Georgia of the Golden Age had some vassal states e.g. Ganja for brief periods, the Ossetians/Alans were kind of vassals for a bit in the same time period, and there was the historic relationship to Trebizond. But Trebizond is the only one of these which might be applicable in game terms from 1444 onwards and they only existed until 1461! The constituent parts of Georgia were vassals of other powers (the Ottomans and the Persians) but that does not make this idea make any more sense. I note that I’m not the only person on these forums to have made this point (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...erhaul-suggestion.979905/page-3#post-22755127).

The other one of these that I’m not keen on is Samouravo Counties. Although these were indeed created by Giorgi VIII/I of Kakhetia in the late 1400s, 1) that was only in part of the territory of Georgia and more importantly 2) Georgia afterwards, particularly in the West, was an absolute nest of snakes basically until King Vakhtang VI or so, so reducing stability cost really doesn’t fit the times. (Referring to a slightly more restricted period, Rayfield says “The story of western Georgia between the death of King Alexandre [i.e. 1660] and the accession of King Solomon I [i.e. 1752] is a confusing vortex of internecine war, depositions and restorations, abduction, adultery, mutilation, murder and treachery. The only consolation for the student of Imeretian-Gurian-Mingrelian history is that it was even more terrible to endure in reality than to read about in retrospect.”) Plus to be honest -10% stability cost modifier is pretty boring and limited.


Instead I would like to suggest some alternatives that seem much more suitable. The first of these is an idea for reduced war exhaustion. Again, this is not an original idea on these forums http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...erhaul-suggestion.979905/page-3#post-22755127). One of the key threads of Georgian history in this period is that they just kept fighting and resisting (particularly the Muslim empires – not Russia quite so much), even though they usually lost in the end. King Teimuraz I spent 50 years resisting the Persians in the first half of the 1600s, losing and regaining his throne repeatedly in the process. Later, the 300 Aragvians would become famous for their last stand (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Hundred_Aragvians). When Georgians weren’t fighting the empires that had vassalised them they were fighting one another. The principalities of Western Georgia in particular fought each other over and over again in this period.


Resistance to Foreign Domination

“In spite of our small size compared to the mighty empires around us, we defend our land against all-comers. Our tenacity in the face of adversity has kept the idea of Georgia alive even through our darkest hours as a nation.”

-0.02 monthly war exhaustion

(If anyone can come up with a better name for this idea I’m all ears. I would call it Legacy of the 300 Aragvians but since they come up at the end of the period rather than the beginning it would seem a bit odd.)


The second is something relating to Georgia’s Orthodox faith. Georgia was a very early adopter of Christianity (they tend to say the second after Armenia but I understand there’s a bit of dispute about that) and Orthodoxy has remained a central part of Georgian identity since the 300s. Indeed, in the tenth century, Giorgi Merchule defined Georgia as anywhere where Mass was said in Georgian. Also, unlike say the Russians, who had a variety of sects split off from the main church, as far as I know this never really happened in Georgia. Moreover, their Orthodoxy was crucial to their foreign policy in this period. They kept trying to draw closer to Russia because Russia, unlike the Ottomans and the Persians, was an Orthodox power. Even when some of the rulers of Kakheti, Kartli and Imereti converted to Islam, this was always under strong pressure from the imperial power and usually just for show. Samtskhe was a bit of an exception admittedly, and became rather Muslim under the Ottomans.

So my suggestion for this would be:

St Nino’s Cross

“In the 4th century, St Nino cured Queen Nana of Iberia of a mortal illness. As a result, her husband, King Mirian, made Christianity our state religion. Since that time, we Georgians have tightly held on to our Christian faith. As one of the first Christian nations, it is crucial for us to maintain our faith against all others. May we one day once again have the strength to aid our brethren in Jerusalem!”

Tolerance of the True Faith +2

OR

Something that increases the new Patriarch Authority from Third Rome.

(Note: once again, this is not an original idea: (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...e-of-new-effects.1031640/page-2#post-23034910))

Note: St Nino was the one who converted Georgia to Christianity. Her cross, made of vine branches, is a symbol of Georgian Christianity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grapevine_cross). The Georgians set up a monastery in Jerusalem long before 1444 but had increasingly little power to protect their clergy and so on, hence the last line.

I would suggest making this an early idea, possibly even a tradition, but certainly one of the first 2 ideas.


There are four other elements of Georgian history that I think would be particularly appropriate for National Ideas, but I haven’t totally fleshed them out yet. Those are the history as being possibly the birthplace of wine; Vakhtang VI’s code the dasturlamali (a late idea which would reduce unrest in some way) and relatedly the institution of serfdom, or patronqmoba, which was extremely persistent and created a society of nobles and peasants; and something relating to fort maintenance (there are castles all over Georgia, and in particular Svaneti deserves a mention as a place where every single family had their own defensive tower https://www.georgianjournal.ge/pictures/image2/5498601486b096ab6031b59ef9f73764.jpg.) As for which ideas would be eliminated, I know many people find Hostile Core Creation Cost boring, although I understand the gameplay reasons for why that might be necessary. Controversially, since it seems like a bit of a nerf, I’d be tempted to get rid of one of the two diplomatic ideas. Georgia absolutely did send out emissaries throughout the period, but they were notably unsuccessful in gaining support from larger powers, whether they be the Pope, France, or indeed Russia under Peter the Great, who promised support and didn’t show up in 1722. The one exception is the Traktat they signed with Russia under Catherine the Great, which the Russians promptly broke and led to them being annexed. I’m also not particularly keen on the Ambition being reduced infantry cost but I don’t have a strong idea of what to replace it with.

There are obviously lots of more fundamental changes that could be made to Georgia too (a complicated event chain to simulate its breakup in the late 1400s, the introduction of Ossetian and Abkhaz cultures to the game, and so on) but this is long enough already. Thank you if you’ve read to the end. I don’t speak Georgian sadly (although I do speak some Russian) so I’m sure I’ve made plenty of mistakes - please pick me up on them.
I'd like to credit the participants on these threads: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/rome-by-the-euxine.980305/ https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ion-comprehensive-overhaul-suggestion.979905/ as being particularly helpful.

 

[Delurker]

Machabeli you dont get my point, i just showed where exatly is located Kars. In your maps Kars included Artaani... Kars must be exluded from Samtskhe.

Delurker
Well you are right about Odishi and Akaltsikh.

Demigraphics of Hereti changed after XVIII century to Dagestani culture, so i think Dags must have access on Shaki province instead.

Çildir derives from Chrdili lake area in Samtskhe and it means Shadow in georgian. Ahiska is just turkish version for Akhaltzikh or Akhaltsikhe, which literaly means new castle in Georgian. White castle would be "Ak-kale" not Ahis-ka tho. It's some kind nationalistic propaganda to find out for certain regions turkish meanings to justify pseudo historic claims. Some Turk even said that Adjara derives from Açar, which means "key" or "gates" in Turkish lol. Actyually Achara was known even during Byzantine period. Racha and Achara both are regions in western Georgia and their etymology has ties with Tzan/Chan aka Colchis culture.

----

Spoiler

here are all my suggestions

Kingdom of Imereti:
current: Abkhazia, Odishi, Imereti and Guria
suggested: Svaneti and Adjara

Samtskhe:
current: Tao, Lomsia (ru. akhaltzikh, tr. ahiska)
suggested: Kars

Georgia:
current: Kartli, Kakheti and Tbilisi
suggested: Mtianeti

Trebizond:
current: Trebizond
suggested: Lazia (tr. Lazistan, ge. Lazeti)

total new provinces: 5

i can explain what are basis for all those new provinces if it's necesary.

and it would be cool to split Caucasus mountains to add Dariali pass in center of it.

The Darial originates from Dar-i Alān (در الان) meaning "Gate of the Alans"

it must connect Alania and Mtianeti regions.
Mtianeti must get extra fortifications or bonus defenses during siege

Spoiler

like every settlements in Mtianeti had it's own unique defensive towers

I'd sign on to that suggestion. Sounds perfect.

 

[Delurker]

I don't really understand adding historical advisors to the list in the files - do they need an event to appear too? Anyway, here's a few people who probably don't really deserve a DHE but were genuine historical characters. I used a pointlessly high advisor id number because I don't know what the numbers will be in the next patch. I don't really think these guys particularly deserve a discount for the player so I said discount=no but the other ones in the file all seem to be yes, which I don't really get.

Spoiler

advisor = {
advisor_id = 3000
name = "Timote Gabashvili" #Diplomat for Imereti
location = 422 #Imereti
discount = no
skill = 2
type = diplomat
date = 1730.1.1 #27 years old, joins Imereti court
death_date = 1764.1.1
}
advisor = {
advisor_id = 3001
name = "Zakaria Gabashvili" #Clergyman and calligrapher
location = 422 #Imereti
discount = no
skill = 1
type = artist
date = 1771.1.1 #joins Imereti court
death_date = 1780.1.1
}
advisor = {
advisor_id = 3002
name = "Rafael Danibegashvili" #Diplomat and merchant for Kartli-Kakheti in India
location = ? #Tbilisi - can't put the location here because the province id hasn't been revealed yet.
discount = no
skill = 2
type = diplomat #could also be a trader
date = 1795.1.1 #unknown years old, first goes to India as a diplomat
death_date = 1821.1.1
}

 

[Machabeli]

Machabeli you dont get my point, i just showed where exatly is located Kars. In your maps Kars included Artaani... Kars must be exluded from Samtskhe.

Delurker
Well you are right about Odishi and Akaltsikh.

Demigraphics of Hereti changed after XVIII century to Dagestani culture, so i think Dags must have access on Shaki province instead.

Çildir derives from Chrdili lake area in Samtskhe and it means Shadow in georgian. Ahiska is just turkish version for Akhaltzikh or Akhaltsikhe, which literaly means new castle in Georgian. White castle would be "Ak-kale" not Ahis-ka tho. It's some kind nationalistic propaganda to find out for certain regions turkish meanings to justify pseudo historic claims. Some Turk even said that Adjara derives from Açar, which means "key" or "gates" in Turkish lol. Actyually Achara was known even during Byzantine period. Racha and Achara both are regions in western Georgia and their etymology has ties with Tzan/Chan aka Colchis culture.

----

here are all my suggestions

Kingdom of Imereti:
current: Abkhazia, Odishi, Imereti and Guria
suggested: Svaneti and Adjara

Samtskhe:
current: Tao, Lomsia (ru. akhaltzikh, tr. ahiska)
suggested: Kars

Georgia:
current: Kartli, Kakheti and Tbilisi
suggested: Mtianeti

Trebizond:
current: Trebizond
suggested: Lazia (tr. Lazistan, ge. Lazeti)

total new provinces: 5

i can explain what are basis for all those new provinces if it's necesary.

and it would be cool to split Caucasus mountains to add Dariali pass in center of it.

The Darial originates from Dar-i Alān (در الان) meaning "Gate of the Alans"

it must connect Alania and Mtianeti regions.
Mtianeti must get extra fortifications or bonus defenses during siege

Spoiler

like every settlements in Mtianeti had it's own unique defensive towers

Hey that's pretty good!

 

[Reavici]

for more accuracy, we need detailed Caucasus to represent some realistic atmosphere of game timeline era.

every historic events which includes Caucasus, it will definetly include Georgia as well. during game timeline period Georgia was one of the populous and influential state in region. even after thousands of muslim invasions and massacres, Georgia still managed to keep leading positions by population destinety. roughly 54% of total population of Caucasus were Georgians, so I think it deserves some more accuracy.

along with new province suggestions, for gameplay purposes I will suggest some new tags too

we need Guria and Odishi tag as a vassal states of Imereti

Imereti had nominal suzerainty over western Georgian independent principalities, so it's inaccurate to show it as it's now.
we need more balkanized Georgia, so uniting it would be real achievement, which were never done by any Georgian tag

i have seen how Georgia invades north Caucasus and annexes Astrakhan, it's really ridiculous, if we want to avoid ahistoric expansions rival Georgian principalties are the only solvation.

add Kartli/Kakheti tag and remove Georgia tag from the start of the game and leave it as formable country.

 

[Machabeli]

for more accuracy, we need detailed Caucasus to represent some realistic atmosphere of game timeline era.

every historic events which includes Caucasus, it will definetly include Georgia as well. during game timeline period Georgia was one of the populous and influential state in region. even after thousands of muslim invasions and massacres, Georgia still managed to keep leading positions by population destinety. roughly 54% of total population of Caucasus were Georgians, so I think it deserves some more accuracy.

along with new province suggestions, for gameplay purposes I will suggest some new tags too

we need Guria and Odishi tag as a vassal states of Imereti

Imereti had nominal suzerainty over western Georgian independent principalities, so it's inaccurate to show it as it's now.
we need more balkanized Georgia, so uniting it would be real achievement, which were never done by any Georgian tag

i have seen how Georgia invades north Caucasus and annexes Astrakhan, it's really ridiculous, if we want to avoid ahistoric expansions rival Georgian principalties are the only solvation.

add Kartli/Kakheti tag and remove Georgia tag from the start of the game and leave it as formable country.

Bravo it looks perfect! but didn't Odishi own Svaneti? and you gave Mtianeti to Kakheti huh? yeah that looks pretty reasonable to me good job m8. though if you ask me Georgia should start as a unified kingdom with high autonomy.(and maybe Imereti as a vassal or something)

 

[Delurker]

add Kartli/Kakheti tag and remove Georgia tag from the start of the game and leave it as formable country.

Yeah, in my opinion either they should write a "Breakup of Georgia" disaster for the region (which is my preferred option), in which case they should start with Georgia, Imereti as its vassal and Samtskhe as independent, or if they don't do that they should just start it with Kartli, Kakheti, Imereti and Samtskhe as separate principalities and pretend we're starting in the late 1460s and have Georgia as a formable.

 

[Kiyant]

One question i have is ,would it even make sense that Samtskhe could form Georgia?
From what Delurker wrote it seems fairly obvious that the Atabegs tried to cut themselves off Georgia , like for example starting an own church.

 

[Delurker]

One question i have is ,would it even make sense that Samtskhe could form Georgia?
From what Delurker wrote it seems fairly obvious that the Atabegs tried to cut themselves off Georgia , like for example starting an own church.

Interesting question! Imereti set up the own church too (successfully, unlike in Samtskhe) and I'd be happy with Imereti forming Georgia. But I do see what you mean. Samtskhe fought over a bit of land in the Kingdom of Imereti (around Guria IIRC) but mainly tried to expand to the south. Saying that, the Jaqelis were Georgian and probably wouldn't have been against taking over the whole of Georgia if they could I guess? Anyone else want to comment?
Also FWIW Bagrat III, who first united Georgia, was from Tao (and Abkhazia) so it had *kind of* happened in the past.

 

[Delurker]

I wanted to practise image manipulation, so I made an image for the Giorgi Saakadze events that can be used in-game. I originally made it in GIMP but I can't upload files in .xcf format so I converted it to a .jpg. If anyone would like to have the original with its layers, let me know and we can figure out how to do that.

 

[Reavici]

Ireland has like 5 tags and detailed regions, while it had around 1 million population in game timeline period. Georgia had around 3-4 million population, so our suggestions about new provinces and tags are very reasonable. Both Georgia and Ireland are local powers, but unlike Ireland, Georgia had relevance in different regions: eastern europe and middle east, also interactions with different empires.

worth to note
Treatry of Iverian princes and kings, signed by Kartli-Kakheti, Imereti, Guria and Odishi rulers, in 1790. According to treartry Georgian princes formed alliance against common enemies.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Krtsanisi

 

[Delurker]

Ireland has like 5 tags and detailed regions, while it had around 1 million population in game timeline period. Georgia had around 3-4 million population, so our suggestions about new provinces and tags are very reasonable. Both Georgia and Ireland are local powers, but unlike Ireland, Georgia had relevance in different regions: eastern europe and middle east, also interactions with different empires.

worth to note
Treatry of Iverian princes and kings, signed by Kartli-Kakheti, Imereti, Guria and Odishi rulers, in 1790. According to treartry Georgian princes formed alliance against common enemies.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Krtsanisi

Just checked and Ireland has 9 provinces, each with 1 tag i.e. 9 tags. (Meath is English territory at the start but is releasable). Plus there's the Ireland tag itself.

 

[Machabeli]

Ireland has like 5 tags and detailed regions, while it had around 1 million population in game timeline period. Georgia had around 3-4 million population, so our suggestions about new provinces and tags are very reasonable. Both Georgia and Ireland are local powers, but unlike Ireland, Georgia had relevance in different regions: eastern europe and middle east, also interactions with different empires.

worth to note
Treatry of Iverian princes and kings, signed by Kartli-Kakheti, Imereti, Guria and Odishi rulers, in 1790. According to treartry Georgian princes formed alliance against common enemies.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Krtsanisi

When i think about it king Erekle II had a legitimate chance of uniting Georgia didn't he?

 

[Reavici]

Delurker
I wish mods will fix Georgia as accurately as they did for Ireland

btw only kings of Imereti, Kakheti and Kartli had legitimate claims on Georgian realm, rest of principialities were not bothering to unite it. Atabegs of Samtskhe, as Princes of Guria and Odishi were just ambitious separatists feudals, who tried to create their own independent kingdoms.

Machabeli

When i think about it king Erekle II had a legitimate chance of uniting Georgia didn't he?

unfortunately he refused to do so... Ottomans were guaranteeing independence of western Georgian states so they would not allow Erekle to inherit Imereti and unite realm.
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Muslim Georgian prince from the province of Samtskhe. A sketch by the Catholic missionaire Don Cristoforo De Castelli

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Prince Levan II Dadiani by Teramo Castelli

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Prince Mamia Gurieli of Guria, 17th century. by Don Christoforo de Castelli.
Historic maps:
1340 and 1453

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1450 - 1515

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ca. 1762

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my suggestion provicnes represented on historic map

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_of_Amasya
Amasya treatry 1555

By this treaty, Armenia and Georgia were divided equally between the two, with Western Armenia, western Kurdistan, and western Georgia (incl. western Samtskhe) falling in Turkish hands while Eastern Armenia, eastern Kurdistan, and eastern Georgia (incl. eastern Samtskhe) stayed in Iranian hands.

in 1625 it was finnaly annexed by Ottomans, who made out of it Eyalet of Childir.

it was governed by islamified Jakeli's until the mid-18th century.

overall Ottomans managed to annex several Georgian provinces: Tao, Adjara and Meskheti

 

[Machabeli]

unfortunately he refused to do so... Ottomans were guaranteeing independence of western Georgian states so they would not allow Erekle to inherit Imereti and unite real.

That damn Ottoblobe ruined it all huh? but at the very least the treaty of iverians recognized Erekle II as the 'father of Georgia' so that's something i guess.

 

[Machabeli]

I really like the way Imereti is shaped and that Adjara looks great.

 

[Delurker]

Delurker
I wish mods will fix Georgia as accurately as they did for Ireland

btw only kings of Imereti, Kakheti and Kartli had legitimate claims on Georgian realm, rest of principialities were not bothering to unite it. Atabegs of Samtskhe, as Princes of Guria and Odishi were just ambitious separatists feudals, who tried to create their own independent kingdoms.

Yeah I guess. Levan II Dadiani tried to take over Imereti as a whole though so I'd read Odishi as being opportunistic and realising they usually didn't have the military might to take over rather than totally opposed to the idea of uniting Georgia. And the princes of Guria were always too weak to have got anywhere near uniting even Imereti. I don't know if it matters too much in the game either way - from what I understand forming Georgia would require owning certain provinces (presumably at least Tbilisi) anyway.

Machabeli

unfortunately he refused to do so... Ottomans were guaranteeing independence of western Georgian states so they would not allow Erekle to inherit Imereti and unite realm.
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Yeah - Donald Rayfield actually says that Erekle II had a possible chance to become Shah of Persia (presumably incorporating Kartli-Kakheti) but uniting K-K with western Georgia was never really possible because they'd have had to fight the Ottomans (and the Persians, who were okay with some Georgian autonomy but didn't want them to get so powerful that they could have broken away.)

Bravo it looks perfect! but didn't Odishi own Svaneti? and you gave Mtianeti to Kakheti huh? yeah that looks pretty reasonable to me good job m8. though if you ask me Georgia should start as a unified kingdom with high autonomy.(and maybe Imereti as a vassal or something)

IIRC there were actually three polities in Svaneti - one owned by one of the local lords, one owned by Odishi, and one without an overall lord, "Free Svaneti". So a separate Svaneti is fair enough IMO.

 

[Delurker]

my suggestion provicnes represented on historic map

Spoiler

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_of_Amasya
Amasya treatry 1555


in 1625 it was finnaly annexed by Ottomans, who made out of it Eyalet of Childir.

it was governed by islamified Jakeli's until the mid-18th century.

overall Ottomans managed to annex several Georgian provinces: Tao, Adjara and Meskheti

The map looks great - didn't we decide that Lazistan's northern border should be a bit further up though? And I love Castelli's drawings - they're fascinating and aren't that far from the art design already used in-game.

 

[Delurker]

As for adding Odishi, Abkhazia and Guria, I'm semi-supportive to adding Odishi in particular since they were very powerful at times and had some interesting and colourful princes, but 1) you have to draw the line somewhere, or we'll wind up with a tag for the Duchy of Aragvi and 2) it runs into the vassal of a vassal problem - maybe EU4 should just allow that but at the moment Odishi etc. could only be a revolter tag at the start unless you start with Georgia already totally broken up, which is pretty dubious historically as we've discussed. I'm very keen for the devs to put in the Levan I Dadiani, Levan II Dadiani and Mariam Dadiani events in particular precisely so that Odishi gets some representation.

Also, in terms of available sources, I have a family tree of the Gurielis, Dadianis and Shervashidzes, but I don't have anything for Svaneti and I know very very little about the characters of the Gurelis or the Shervashidzes in particular so their stats would probably just have to be random. Likewise I couldn't even begin to write any DHEs for them apart from *possibly* more for Odishi. Not saying the information isn't out there, mind you (although I don't think there's anything in English.)

 

[Machabeli]

IIRC there were actually three polities in Svaneti - one owned by one of the local lords, one owned by Odishi, and one without an overall lord, "Free Svaneti". So a separate Svaneti is fair enough IMO.

You misunderstood me I meant that the province of Svaneti should've been owned by the principality of Odishi not Imereti.

 

[Delurker]

You misunderstood I meant that the province of Svaneti should've been owned by the principality of Odishi not Imereti.

Oh I see! Well then yeah you're right. Or it could be owned by nobody - either would be fine.