Georgia Changes for Flavour and Accuracy

[Delurker]

I’d like to make some suggestions for how to improve Georgia in the game.


First I’d like to suggest some dynamic province names:

Spoiler

12 Sjælland - Zelandia


41 Koenigsberg – Kenigsbergi


50 Berlin – Berlini


85 Koeln - K'elni


97 Holland - Holandia


101 Genoa - Genua


102 Nice – Nitsa


110 Trent - Trento


112 Venezia – Venetsia


113 Ferrara - Ferara


115 Pisa - Piza


116 Firenze -Florentsia


118 Roma – Romi


121 Napoli – Neapoli


134 Wien - Vena


144 Epirus – Epiri?


146 Athens – Ateni


147 Thessaly – Tesalia?


148 Macedonia - Mak'edonia


149 Edirne – Adrianopoli


150 Tarnovo – Tirnovo?


151 Constantinople - (Istanbul = Stanbuli; Constantinople = K'onst'ant'inop'oli)


153 Pest – Peshti?


163 Crete - Kreta


183 Paris – P’arizi


236 London - Londoni


257 Warszawa – Varshava


262 Krakow - Krakovi


280 Kiev - Kievi


284 Crimea – Qirimi


286 Azov – Azovi (I think)


287 Kuban – Jiketi


(N.B. Kuban should have alternative name if Circassia takes it - Pshyze)


295 Moskva – Mosk’ovi


310 Novgorod – (Didi) Novgorodi – “Didi” means “The Great”, like “Velikiy Novgorod” in Russian


317 Hüdavendigar – Bursa (or Brusa)


319 Mentese – Menteshe?


320 Rhodes – Rodosi


321 Cyprus - K'vip'rosi


327 Adana - Adana


328 Sinop – Sinopi


329 Sivas - several options – Sebastia probably best


330 Trebizond - T'rap'izoni


331 Erzurum - Karnu-Kalaki is probably the best choice


365 Sinai - Sinai


379 Jerusalem – Ierusalimi


382 Damascus - Damask'i


410 Baghdad - Baghdadi


411 Mosul – Mosuli

Edit to add: 416 Tabriz - Tavrizi

418 Diyarbakir - Diarbakiri


419 Yerevan – Erivani/Erebuni


421 Shirvan = Shirvani


424 Ardabil - Ardebili


428 Teheran - Teirani


429 Isfahan – Ispaani


442 Bukhara - Bukhara


445 Merv - Mervi


454 Samarkand - Samarqandi


462 Mingrelia – Samegrelo - Mingrelia is the Russian name, not the Georgian one. EDIT: on further reading actually Odishi is an even better choice for the name of the province than Samegrelo, which was only really used in the 19th century. Definitely not Mingrelia though.


463 Circassia – Cherkezeti


464 Astrakhan - Ast'rakhani


475 Bashkortostan - Bashk'ireti


522 Delhi – Deli


1765 Sofia – Sofia


1773 Achaea - Akaia


1816 Beijing - P'ek'ini


1855 Sidon - Sidoni


2205 Nakhchivan – Nakhichevani


2208 Terek – Tergi


2218 Shiraz - Shirazi


2306 Mush - Mushi


2307 Van – Vani


2313 Antioch - Ant'iokia


2331 Jeddah – Jida


2348 Chios - Kiosi

Other changes:

My major source for all this is Edge of Empires: a History of Georgia by Donald Rayfield, which as far as I can tell is the most comprehensive study available in English. All the events apart from the baths one are featured in that text. Many of these ideas have been suggested before on these forums but I wanted to collate and polish them a bit, as well as back them up a bit more with sources so they seem more credible to those who don’t know this region very well.

The Darial Pass

The South Caucasus should have a break in the middle for the Darial Pass. It should link Kartli to Alania. The Darial Pass was very important in the history of the region. In the period roughly 1000-1400 the fact that the pass was controlled by Georgians or their allies (the Ossetians) was crucial in stopping Georgia being invaded by the steppe peoples to the North. Later, when Russia finally decisively invaded Georgia at the end of the 1700s, they did so through the Darial Pass. The current situation is ahistorical and encourages powers in the Northern Caucasus to attack via Abkhazia, which was famously difficult and swampy terrain in real life and so was only subdued by the Russian Empire later.

Darbazi

Very minor, but if possible it would be nice to change the “Call Diet” action in the estates tabs to “Call Darbazi”, since that was the name of the roughly equivalent Georgian institution (it was basically the King’s council.) For added flavour, it could increase the influence of the clergy as well as the nobility, as the key religious figures were also invited to darbazis.

Noble influence

A small change that I don’t know how easy it would be to modify, but the common thread for Georgia in this period is a strong and disloyal nobility. It would be good to have higher noble influence as a result, to make it harder to manage that estate. I think there’s a reasonable case for making Georgia a Feudal Monarchy rather than a Despotic Monarchy.

Events:

Currently, Georgia has no events of its own at all. I am aware that it's a bit difficult to create events for Georgia because it spent most of the period hopelessly split, with the West under the thumb of the Ottomans and the East the Persians. For this reason I've gone for cultural achievements because 1) they're not railroady and 2) they are not dependent on the overall geopolitical situation to the same extent. Here are my suggestions. I'm flexible on the effects they have - the aim is to provide flavour for a tag that has no flavour of its own beyond being Orthodox at the moment, not to turn Georgia into some kind of superpower.

Spoiler

Zaza Panaskerteli-Tsitsishvili’s Karabadini


Conditions:


Year = 1486 or so


http://www.medgeo.net/2009/12/25/სამკურნალო-წიგნი-კარაბად/ (kinda has picture – but could just use generic manuscript pic)


(In 1486) Eristavi Zaza Panaskerteli-Tsitsishvili wrote and compiled an important collection of Georgian medical knowledge. Drawing on Galenic and Sumerian ideas, as well as local remedies, the two volumes of the Karabadini describe methods of identifying diseases and how to examine patients. The Karabadini examines both physical and mental illnesses. Mental illnesses are said to be a product of physical issues in the brain, and therefore they require medication, not magic rituals. In Panaskerteli-Tsitsishvili’s opinion, it is necessary to heal the patient using accurate knowledge based on rational methods of treatment.


Our people shall benefit greatly from this work!


Effects:


+10% population growth (same as Medical Evolution event) for 500 days or whatever (maybe lower but for longer?)


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Sayat-Nova

Sayat-Nova was a renowned ashugh (troubadour) singer in the 18th century. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayat-Nova). He was ethnically Armenian but came from Tbilisi and King Erekle II of Georgia patronised him.


The event should fire from 1740 to 1765


"A wandering ashugh who calls himself Sayat-Nova has come to our court singing songs of love and merriment in all the languages of the South Caucasus. Shall we patronise him?"


YES > pay x money, gain prestige


NO > lose prestige


Note: Since Sayat-Nova was ethnically Armenian, it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that if an Armenian state had existed at the time he would have tried to gain patronage there, especially after being banished from Erekle II's court. Therefore I propose this event be assigned to Armenia as well. These days he seems to be more famous in Armenian circles than Georgian ones anyway, thanks to being in The Colour of Pomegranates.

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Year is at least 1675. Year is before 1715



Sulkhan-Saba Orbeliani

Sulkhan-Saba Orbeliani (1658-1725) was a Georgian polymath. He wrote Georgia's first dictionary, wrote a classic of Georgian literature called A Book of Wisdom and Lies when he was only in his 20s, and later was sent as a diplomat to France to try to create an alliance with Louis XIV (Louis died and it came to nothing.) He was also a Catholic monk for a while. Interesting guy. I want to leave the diplomatic stuff out of the blurb because it feels a bit railroady.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulkhan-Saba_Orbeliani


"Sulkhan-Saba Orbeliani (1658-1725) was a Georgian polymath. He wrote A Book of Wisdom and Lies (Tsigni Sibrdzne Sitsruisa), a classic of Georgian literature that uses fables to explore human folly and how to live a more moral life. He also wrote the first Georgian dictionary and was instrumental in the development of printing and literacy in the country."


We are fortunate to have such a talent in our realm.


Effects:

Gain 50 Admin

Gain 10 prestige

(I'd be tempted to have something about increasing institution spread speed here.)


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This event is not *quite* historical. Due to Eastern Georgia's subjugation to the Persians, there was rather little development of urban and social infrastructure there until Vakhtang VI. However, in the game Georgia would almost inevitably have to be independent or they wouldn't be being played, so I think there's a case to be made that they would have invested in this area if they'd had the wherewithal. And there is historical evidence that the baths were being used more by common people in the 17th century. And the oldest still existing bathhouse is from 1726, so well within the timeframe. (http://www.eurasianet.org/node/64912)


Year is at least 1650.


Develop the Tbilisi Baths

We Georgians have been bathing in public baths since the days of the Roman Empire. Indeed our capital Tbilisi was built on hot springs by Vakhtang Gorgasali in the 5th century CE. Since then, we have enjoyed the warm sulphurous waters there. Now, under the cultural influence of the Islamic Empires to our south, the common people and our soldiers have become ever more keen to wash their cares away. We should build more bathhouses to satisfy public demand and show our munificence.


Yes, let us provide for our people in this way.

Pay x money, gain 10 prestige.


No, our people have no need of such amusements.

Lose 5 prestige.

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Growth of Armenian Diaspora

Triggers: Armenia does not exist

Year is at least 1600

“Our fellow Christians the Armenians have begun settling in our fair land. They are bringing prosperity to our capital, but some of our people are uneasy at the presence of so many foreigners in our midst.”


Let them stay!

+2 base tax, +1 unrest in Kartli


We have no need of these interlopers!

Lose 5 prestige?


Context: there were a lot of Armenians in Tbilisi and they actually formed the vast majority of the population in the 19th century.

Finally, I’d like to discuss Georgia’s National Ideas.

Spoiler

Georgia’s current National Ideas:

Traditions:

Traditions:

+50% Hostile core-creation cost on us

−10% Shock damage received



Chance of new heir.png Bagrationi Dynasty

+50% Chance of new heir



Improve relations.png Georgian Isolation

+30% Improve relations



Construction cost.png Restoration of Fortresses and Churches

−10% Construction cost



Income from vassals.png Georgian Protectorates

+20% Income from vassals



Stability cost modifier.png Samouravo Counties

−10% Stability cost modifier



Manpower recovery speed.png Sadrosho Districts

+20% Manpower recovery speed



Diplomatic reputation.png Georgian Embassies

+1 Diplomatic reputation



Idea bonus.png Ambition:

−20% Infantry cost



My comments:

There are a couple of these that stick out as being unfitting. First is Georgian Protectorates. Simply put, during the time period of the game, Georgia basically never had any vassals so I have no idea why this is part of the National Ideas. The Georgia of the Golden Age had some vassal states e.g. Ganja for brief periods, the Ossetians/Alans were kind of vassals for a bit in the same time period, and there was the historic relationship to Trebizond. But Trebizond is the only one of these which might be applicable in game terms from 1444 onwards and they only existed until 1461! The constituent parts of Georgia were vassals of other powers (the Ottomans and the Persians) but that does not make this idea make any more sense. I note that I’m not the only person on these forums to have made this point (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...erhaul-suggestion.979905/page-3#post-22755127).

The other one of these that I’m not keen on is Samouravo Counties. Although these were indeed created by Giorgi VIII/I of Kakhetia in the late 1400s, 1) that was only in part of the territory of Georgia and more importantly 2) Georgia afterwards, particularly in the West, was an absolute nest of snakes basically until King Vakhtang VI or so, so reducing stability cost really doesn’t fit the times. (Referring to a slightly more restricted period, Rayfield says “The story of western Georgia between the death of King Alexandre [i.e. 1660] and the accession of King Solomon I [i.e. 1752] is a confusing vortex of internecine war, depositions and restorations, abduction, adultery, mutilation, murder and treachery. The only consolation for the student of Imeretian-Gurian-Mingrelian history is that it was even more terrible to endure in reality than to read about in retrospect.”) Plus to be honest -10% stability cost modifier is pretty boring and limited.


Instead I would like to suggest some alternatives that seem much more suitable. The first of these is an idea for reduced war exhaustion. Again, this is not an original idea on these forums http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...erhaul-suggestion.979905/page-3#post-22755127). One of the key threads of Georgian history in this period is that they just kept fighting and resisting (particularly the Muslim empires – not Russia quite so much), even though they usually lost in the end. King Teimuraz I spent 50 years resisting the Persians in the first half of the 1600s, losing and regaining his throne repeatedly in the process. Later, the 300 Aragvians would become famous for their last stand (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Hundred_Aragvians). When Georgians weren’t fighting the empires that had vassalised them they were fighting one another. The principalities of Western Georgia in particular fought each other over and over again in this period.


Resistance to Foreign Domination

“In spite of our small size compared to the mighty empires around us, we defend our land against all-comers. Our tenacity in the face of adversity has kept the idea of Georgia alive even through our darkest hours as a nation.”

-0.02 monthly war exhaustion

(If anyone can come up with a better name for this idea I’m all ears. I would call it Legacy of the 300 Aragvians but since they come up at the end of the period rather than the beginning it would seem a bit odd.)


The second is something relating to Georgia’s Orthodox faith. Georgia was a very early adopter of Christianity (they tend to say the second after Armenia but I understand there’s a bit of dispute about that) and Orthodoxy has remained a central part of Georgian identity since the 300s. Indeed, in the tenth century, Giorgi Merchule defined Georgia as anywhere where Mass was said in Georgian. Also, unlike say the Russians, who had a variety of sects split off from the main church, as far as I know this never really happened in Georgia. Moreover, their Orthodoxy was crucial to their foreign policy in this period. They kept trying to draw closer to Russia because Russia, unlike the Ottomans and the Persians, was an Orthodox power. Even when some of the rulers of Kakheti, Kartli and Imereti converted to Islam, this was always under strong pressure from the imperial power and usually just for show. Samtskhe was a bit of an exception admittedly, and became rather Muslim under the Ottomans.

So my suggestion for this would be:

St Nino’s Cross

“In the 4th century, St Nino cured Queen Nana of Iberia of a mortal illness. As a result, her husband, King Mirian, made Christianity our state religion. Since that time, we Georgians have tightly held on to our Christian faith. As one of the first Christian nations, it is crucial for us to maintain our faith against all others. May we one day once again have the strength to aid our brethren in Jerusalem!”

Tolerance of the True Faith +2

OR

Something that increases the new Patriarch Authority from Third Rome.

(Note: once again, this is not an original idea: (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...e-of-new-effects.1031640/page-2#post-23034910))

Note: St Nino was the one who converted Georgia to Christianity. Her cross, made of vine branches, is a symbol of Georgian Christianity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grapevine_cross). The Georgians set up a monastery in Jerusalem long before 1444 but had increasingly little power to protect their clergy and so on, hence the last line.

I would suggest making this an early idea, possibly even a tradition, but certainly one of the first 2 ideas.


There are four other elements of Georgian history that I think would be particularly appropriate for National Ideas, but I haven’t totally fleshed them out yet. Those are the history as being possibly the birthplace of wine; Vakhtang VI’s code the dasturlamali (a late idea which would reduce unrest in some way) and relatedly the institution of serfdom, or patronqmoba, which was extremely persistent and created a society of nobles and peasants; and something relating to fort maintenance (there are castles all over Georgia, and in particular Svaneti deserves a mention as a place where every single family had their own defensive tower https://www.georgianjournal.ge/pictures/image2/5498601486b096ab6031b59ef9f73764.jpg.) As for which ideas would be eliminated, I know many people find Hostile Core Creation Cost boring, although I understand the gameplay reasons for why that might be necessary. Controversially, since it seems like a bit of a nerf, I’d be tempted to get rid of one of the two diplomatic ideas. Georgia absolutely did send out emissaries throughout the period, but they were notably unsuccessful in gaining support from larger powers, whether they be the Pope, France, or indeed Russia under Peter the Great, who promised support and didn’t show up in 1722. The one exception is the Traktat they signed with Russia under Catherine the Great, which the Russians promptly broke and led to them being annexed. I’m also not particularly keen on the Ambition being reduced infantry cost but I don’t have a strong idea of what to replace it with.

There are obviously lots of more fundamental changes that could be made to Georgia too (a complicated event chain to simulate its breakup in the late 1400s, the introduction of Ossetian and Abkhaz cultures to the game, and so on) but this is long enough already. Thank you if you’ve read to the end. I don’t speak Georgian sadly (although I do speak some Russian) so I’m sure I’ve made plenty of mistakes - please pick me up on them.
I'd like to credit the participants on these threads: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/rome-by-the-euxine.980305/ https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ion-comprehensive-overhaul-suggestion.979905/ as being particularly helpful.

 

[Machabeli]

Here's how i think devs should remake Georgian provinces.

I wanted to add Mtianeti and Adjara but i wasn't sure where i would put it so i left it as it is. as you can see my Kartli is shaped rather nicely isn't?

 

[Delurker]

I see in the latest dev diary that they've changed the name of Mingrelia to Odishi and spelled Tbilisi correctly - the system works.

Coming back to some of the earlier suggestions, I actually really like @Reavici 's idea of Mtianeti as an extra province - it'd be nice to represent the Khevsurs, Tush and so on and that's a good way of doing it without getting too fine-grained. Plus it means that Kakheti could have an extra province and would provide another province that could be attacked in the Lekianoba (perhaps the Caucasus could have a gap there - it's not totally accurate historically but it's not totally inaccurate either- the "Leks" did attack from Tusheti sometimes I believe.) Saying that, the Dukes of Aragvi and Ksani were subject to Kartli IIRC, not Kakheti, so... I doubt it'll be added to the patch at this late stage though, unfortunately. @Machabeli 's idea of Tusheti is also pretty solid. Not quite sure that the boundaries are correct though - did it go that far south? More than happy to be corrected on this. I don't think it'd make sense to have both Mtianeti and Tusheti though - they'd be a bit small IMO - probably best to just have one or the other.

I figure it's only fair to engage with @Zak Preston 's ideas but I have to say I disagree with his suggestions for the military NIs for basically the same reasons @durbal gave in the first thread he proposed them in - they're not historically fitting, plus my revised Georgian NIs (which I admit aren't particularly complete or polished) are actually pretty militaristic already. Georgia's military was decent, sure, but not world-beating. Plus they may have been heavily outnumbered versus the Ottomans, Persians and Russians, but at the end of the day they still lost - I mean, Brandenburg wasn't exactly big either but they expanded hugely, which is why they get all those military bonuses. In contrast, Georgia was split, parts were annexed and the remainder was vassalised. Incidentally this is why I still support having HCC in the Georgian NIs - I know it's a purely passive NI which doesn't feel as satisfying, but IMO one of the key trends for Georgia in this period is that they managed to maintain 1) their cultural distinctiveness (though with plenty of cultural exchange with the Persians in particular), 2) their faith and 3) the idea of a united Georgia, plus mostly they were vassalised rather than fully annexed. I don't know of a better way of representing that than with HCC.

As for the missionary strength idea, 1) Georgian missionaries were pretty marginal during the game's period as far as I know - a few wandered up to Chechnya and Dagestan and a few to the Khevsurs and as far as I know that's basically it - the clerics were mostly used as ambassadors rather than missionaries when they weren't doing their standard religious duties and 2) the examples given in the NI are all of missionaries who came *to* Georgia, not ones who left it. If this was Crusader Kings I could see the argument for missionary strength as during that period there were some significant Georgian missionaries, but not in EU4.

Georgian Wine and Mountain Keeps are reasonable suggestions, especially Georgian Wine, but I'd suggest "Cradle of Wine" and "Svan Towers" as more flavourful names for them. It's quite hard to fit them in though - I'm not sure which NIs should be taken out. Arguably neither of them is totally crucial because Georgia can get the trading-in-wine bonus and have high-level fortresses and so kind of get those bonuses by another route. Also maybe it's just me but I think it's a little strange to get a general trade efficiency bonus based on one particular crop - I would like to see Georgia get some kind of bonus based on wine production though! Conceivably, you might get rid of -10% shock damage, put +50% heir chance into the traditions, and make space for a wine NI there? Not at all sure that would be a good idea though - just musing now.

Anyway, I'm glad there are so many people interested in representing Georgia better and I'm really excited to see what the expansion will be like.

 

[Reavici]

Delurker
Both Ksani and Aragvi were mentioned in XIII century as a military based districts. They transformed into Saeristavo (dukedom) in XV century.

Lords of Aragvi were separatists, who tried to get full political independence from Kartli, they were planning to unify whole north east Georgia (they temporary even managed to do it.)
After peasant rebellion in Aragvi in 1742, local Aragvians ceded area to Taymuraz of Kakheti in 1743.

Mtianeti and Kartli are two different provinces, which never were associated to each other. Kartli is basically flatlands and its concentrated along Kura river, while Mtianeti is full of gorges and huge mountains. Also Kakheti is concentrated on Alazani valley, and neither is associated to Mtianeti. Its very unique area, with its own flavour, like unique miuntain laws, life style, architecture of defensive towers and so on...

Leks were poor since they were living in isolated mountains, so they were raiding neighbouring Azerbaijani and Georgian trade towns and pillaging everything around.

Quote from wiki. Lekianoba article:
In the late 16th century, part of Georgian marchlands in the Kingdom of Kakheti, later known as Saingilo, was given by the Persian shah Abbas I to his Dagestani allies, creating a base for subsequent invasions.

Zakatala or Saingilo district located in modern Azerbaijan, was stronghold of Leks. They were attacking Kartli and Kakheti through this area.

And I'm against separated Tusheti, it must be either part of Kakheti or merged to Mtianeti. Machabeli's suggested map is awful indeed

I'm still waiting for Lomsia to be divided into Meskheti (Lomsia) and Kars provinces, there are many reasons to do so.also It would solve demographic issue which were over single Lomsia province.

 

[Delurker]

Delurker
Both Ksani and Aragvi were mentioned in XIII century as a military based districts. They transformed into Saeristavo (dukedom) in XV century.

Lords of Aragvi were separatists, who tried to get full political independence from Kartli, they were planning to unify whole north east Georgia (they temporary even managed to do it.)
After peasant rebellion in Aragvi in 1742, local Aragvians ceded area to Taymuraz of Kakheti in 1743.

Mtianeti and Kartli are two different provinces, which never were associated to each other. Kartli is basically flatlands and its concentrated along Kura river, while Mtianeti is full of gorges and huge mountains. Also Kakheti is concentrated on Alazani valley, and neither is associated to Mtianeti. Its very unique area, with its own flavour, like unique miuntain laws, life style, architecture of defensive towers and so on...

Yeah I don't think we disagree - I was just thinking in terms of which Kingdom they should be part of in-game - Kartli or Kakheti. Since we're apparently starting with just Georgia in that area though I suppose that doesn't really matter. Obviously the province should have high autonomy either way.

Leks were poor since they were living in isolated mountains, so they were raiding neighbouring Azerbaijani and Georgian trade towns and pillaging everything around.

Quote from wiki. Lekianoba article:
In the late 16th century, part of Georgian marchlands in the Kingdom of Kakheti, later known as Saingilo, was given by the Persian shah Abbas I to his Dagestani allies, creating a base for subsequent invasions.

Zakatala or Saingilo district located in modern Azerbaijan, was stronghold of Leks. They were attacking Kartli and Kakheti through this area.

Yeah I know that was the main base of the "Leks" - I had it in my head that they'd come across the mountains in Tusheti too occasionally. This source gives an example from the 1500s:
"One of the demonstrative examples of gazavat, in the context of this study, is the campaign of the Hunzah gazeries under the leadership of Nutsal Tururava and his nephew Barty. In 1570 their army across the upper reaches of the river. Sharo-Argun raided the Caucasus Range in Tushetia. They were confronted by the combined forces of tushin, kakheti and tsova-tushin (batsbiytsev), who gained the upper hand in the battle of s. Girevi [1, p. 102; 2, p. 187-189]. Similar examples during the 16th-19th centuries, when in written sources (official correspondence, historical works) military campaigns are defined as gazavat, there are many. In their respect, this is used, in essence, a legal term."
(Google translated from the Russian here. Gazavat is of course fighting by ghazis i.e. the "Leks" often considered their raids to be part of a holy war.)

And I'm against separated Tusheti, it must be either part of Kakheti or merged to Mtianeti. Machabeli's suggested map is awful indeed

I'm still waiting for Lomsia to be divided into Meskheti (Lomsia) and Kars provinces, there are many reasons to do so.also It would solve demographic issue which were over single Lomsia province.

Yeah a separated Lomsia would be nice in gameplay terms too. Maybe it's just me but I quite like having countries that don't all have the ruling culture and religion at the start - it makes it more interesting!

 

[Machabeli]

The reason i added Tusheti was give to give kingdom of Kakheti another province so i thought it would work out just fine but oh well.

Yeah a separated Lomsia would be nice in gameplay terms too. Maybe it's just me but I quite like having countries that don't all have the ruling culture and religion at the start - it makes it more interesting!

Indeed Lomisa should definitely be separated in two(lomisa and kars) though i'm not so sure about Mtianeti and Adjara, hmm i guess it could kinda work? or not.

 

[Machabeli]

Also while we're talking about Kakheti i would like to mention that the province of Kakheti should be many times richer than any other Georgian province especially in that time period. Kakheti was the only the Georgian kingdom that was 'spared' from any major invasions for quite some time, not to mention Kakheti actively participated in Ghilan-Shemakha-Astrakhan 'silk route' which made Kakheti prosper and flourish.

 

[Delurker]

Also while we're talking about Kakheti i would like to mention that the province of Kakheti should be many times richer than any other Georgian province especially in that time period. Kakheti was the only Georgian kingdom that was 'spared' from any major invasions for quite some, not to mention Kakheti actively participated in Ghilan-Shemakha-Astrakhan 'silk route' which made Kakheti prosper and flourish.

Yeah I basically agree with that, although I think there's a case for Kartli and Tbilisi having similarly high levels of development but much more devastation at the start.

 

[Delurker]

The reason i added Tusheti was give to give kingdom of Kakheti another province so i thought it would work out just fine but oh well.


Indeed Lomisa should definitely be separated in two(lomisa and kars) though i'm not so sure about Mtianeti and Adjara, hmm i guess it could kinda work? or not.

I don't think Adjara's necessary - the Principality of Guria and a province of Lazeti would cover it fine. But I like the idea of Tusheti, don't get me wrong! I just thought amalgamating it with Pshavi and Khevsureti might be a good way to represent them all without having lots of really tiny provinces. Though I suppose provinces in the Caucasus are likely to be relatively small anyway because of the geography (all those mountain valleys!)

 

[Machabeli]

Yeah I basically agree with that, although I think there's a case for Kartli and Tbilisi having similarly high levels of development but much more devastation at the start.

Yes i'd say Tbilisi should have higher development overall but it should be devastated at the start.(because of 1440 Qara qoyunlu invasion)

 

[Machabeli]

I don't think Adjara's necessary - the Principality of Guria and a province of Lazeti would cover it fine. But I like the idea of Tusheti, don't get me wrong! I just thought amalgamating it with Pshavi and Khevsureti might be a good way to represent them all without having lots of really tiny provinces. Though I suppose provinces in the Caucasus are likely to be relatively small anyway because of the geography (all those mountain valleys!)

Yes that's exactly what i had in mind when i added Tusheti.

 

[Reavici]

I did all my best to redraw my suggested regions on google earth map

detailed map of Guria

 

[Machabeli]

Meskheti? wouldn't it be better to just have Lomisa and kars respectively? and isn't Guria holding a bit of too much land? i'm certain that Odishi held more land in the south, devs could add Hereti from Shaki though the problem with that is the fact that Kakheti province already kinda covers parts of Hereti and Kingdom of Kakheti(from what i remember) never really held land that east of its borders. http://www.conflicts.rem33.com/images/abkhazia/abkh_histr 3_files/image023.gif
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...r_dissolution_as_a_unified_state,_1490_AD.svg
(i did fuck up borders of Tusheti but i just wanted to combine all of the mountain Georgians into one province, i guess that wouldn't really work)

 

[Delurker]

I did all my best to redraw my suggested regions on google earth map

detailed map of Guria

Those maps are excellent, especially the top one. If the devs did the top one with Lazeti as a province of Trebizond and split Meskheti I'd basically say it'd be perfect (as I say, I might merge Mtianeti and Tusheti though just because Tusheti is so small. Also as you say Hereti isn't essential - it can be merged into Kakheti.)

 

[Reavici]

Lomsia is ex-name of Akhtaltsikhe, so i prefer Meskheti for region name. Samtskhe and Meskheti are different things tho. Kars was excluded from my map
Odishi is more like name of Dukedom but not region at all, it consisted not only Mingrelia but also Abkhazia and Guria. btw Guriels are offshot of Dadiani's

Tusheti was irrelevant as hell, it would be better to combine all these north-east mountaineers into one province commonly called Mtianeti (mountainous lands)

Guria holding a bit of too much land?

Guria even held Lazeti according to historic sources...

or it could be done like that:

Adjara can represent area which was constantnly changing between hands of Samtskhe, Guria and Ottoman Empire.
as far as Guria was never annexed by Ottomans unlike Adjara and most of southern provinces, we must keep Guria separately from it

Adjara can include neighbouring districts like northrn part of Lazistan and Klarjeti

history of Adjara:
XIII: part of Principialty of Samtskhe
1465: Qvarqvare II Jaqeli ceded it to Guriel for supporting him at battle against George VIII last king of United Georgia
XVI: retaken by Mzechabuk Jakeli
1535: part of Guria again
XVI: annexed by Ottomans
non game timeline periods:
1829: Ottomans reicorporated Adjara to Lazistan Sanjak
1878: liberated by Russian Empire, which made out of it Batumi Oblast

 

[Reavici]

Delurker
thanks for rating my maps
Lazeti would be nice addition for Trebizond and Georgia as well. we could boost Trebizond empire without making single province metropolite and it's kinda unfair to hide all traces of Georgians from Trebizond Empire. like half population of empire were Kartvelians (Laz speakers)...

rough map of detailed Samtskhe + sub-regions

I'm ok with current pdx Kakheti and Shaki borders tbh

 

[Machabeli]

Delurker
thanks for rating my maps
Lazeti would be nice addition for Trebizond and Georgia as well. we could boost Trebizond empire without making single province metropolite and it's kinda unfair to hide all traces of Georgians from Trebizond Empire. like half population of empire were Kartvelians (Laz speakers)...

rough map of detailed Samtskhe + sub-regions

I'm ok with current pdx Kakheti and Shaki borders tbh

They're no sub-regions in the game though so it would be better to simply leave at as Lomisa and kars.

 

[Delurker]

Lomsia is ex-name of Akhtaltsikhe, so i prefer Meskheti for region name. Samtskhe and Meskheti are different things tho. Kars was excluded from my map

Yeah I'm easy about calling it Lomsia or Meskheti. I think under the Ottomans it became referred to as Akhalzik Sanjak sometimes and the Bey of Akhaltsikhe was the key political player so maybe that's what the idea behind it is.

Odishi is more like name of Dukedom but not region at all, it consisted not only Mingrelia but also Abkhazia and Guria.

Are you sure? Vakhushti Bagrationi's map distinguishes Guria, Abkhazia and Odishi. I appreciate Odishi maybe has connotations of separateness, but I thought Sabediano was the term that specifically referred to the idea that they were a dukedom run by the Dadianis. These guys also seem to think it's an old name for Samegrelo. In any case I thought it might be a good idea to call it that since Georgia is split in the new patch and it's a bit of a nod to the regional autonomy there. I agree that Guria and Abkhazia were formally (though clearly not always in practice!) subordinate to Odishi though - it's a shame you can't do vassals of vassals in the game as far as I know.

btw Guriels are offshot of Dadiani's

Yep.

Tusheti was irrelevant as hell, it would be better to combine all these north-east mountaineers into one province commonly called Mtianeti (mountainous lands)

Agreed I think. The Caucasus needs a couple of passes for the Lekianoba since Gazikumukh and Avaria won't likely ever own Shaki in the current arrangement, but I suppose there could also be a pass further down in the South East of Kakheti...

Guria even held Lazeti according to historic sources...

or it could be done like that:

Adjara can represent area which was constantnly changing between hands of Samtskhe, Guria and Ottoman Empire.
as far as Guria was never annexed by Ottomans unlike Adjara and most of southern provinces, we must keep Guria separately from it

Yeah fair enough - I had in my head that that was just Lazeti but of course you're right that it was also Adjara.

 

[Kiyant]

Yeah I'm easy about calling it Lomsia or Meskheti. I think under the Ottomans it became referred to as Akhalzik Sanjak sometimes and the Bey of Akhaltsikhe was the key political player so maybe that's what the idea behind it is.

Are you sure? Vakhushti Bagrationi's map distinguishes Guria, Abkhazia and Odishi. I appreciate Odishi maybe has connotations of separateness, but I thought Sabediano was the term that specifically referred to the idea that they were a dukedom run by the Dadianis. These guys also seem to think it's an old name for Samegrelo. In any case I thought it might be a good idea to call it that since Georgia is split in the new patch and it's a bit of a nod to the regional autonomy there. I agree that Guria and Abkhazia were formally (though clearly not always in practice!) subordinate to Odishi though - it's a shame you can't do vassals of vassals in the game as far as I know.

Yep.

Agreed I think. The Caucasus needs a couple of passes for the Lekianoba since Gazikumukh and Avaria won't likely ever own Shaki in the current arrangement, but I suppose there could also be a pass further down in the South East of Kakheti...


Yeah fair enough - I had in my head that that was just Lazeti but of course you're right that it was also Adjara.

It was known in Turkish under the name Ahiska which means White Castle.
The Turks of the regions of Kars,Ardahan,Artvin and the Turks that were banished from Georgia still call themselves Ahiska Turks.

 

[Delurker]

It was known in Turkish under the name Ahiska which means White Castle.
The Turks of the regions of Kars,Ardahan,Artvin and the Turks that were banished from Georgia still call themselves Ahiska Turks.

Oh yeah good point! I think Ahiska (I think the I doesn't have a dot?) is the dynamic name at the moment. Mind you Cildir is also probably okay? These places have too many different names!

 

[Reavici]

Machabeli you dont get my point, i just showed where exatly is located Kars. In your maps Kars included Artaani... Kars must be exluded from Samtskhe.

Delurker
Well you are right about Odishi and Akaltsikh.

Demigraphics of Hereti changed after XVIII century to Dagestani culture, so i think Dags must have access on Shaki province instead.

Çildir derives from Chrdili lake area in Samtskhe and it means Shadow in georgian. Ahiska is just turkish version for Akhaltzikh or Akhaltsikhe, which literaly means new castle in Georgian. White castle would be "Ak-kale" not Ahis-ka tho. It's some kind nationalistic propaganda to find out for certain regions turkish meanings to justify pseudo historic claims. Some Turk even said that Adjara derives from Açar, which means "key" or "gates" in Turkish lol. Actyually Achara was known even during Byzantine period. Racha and Achara both are regions in western Georgia and their etymology has ties with Tzan/Chan aka Colchis culture.

----

here are all my suggestions

Kingdom of Imereti:
current: Abkhazia, Odishi, Imereti and Guria
suggested: Svaneti and Adjara

Samtskhe:
current: Tao, Lomsia (ru. akhaltzikh, tr. ahiska)
suggested: Kars

Georgia:
current: Kartli, Kakheti and Tbilisi
suggested: Mtianeti

Trebizond:
current: Trebizond
suggested: Lazia (tr. Lazistan, ge. Lazeti)

total new provinces: 5

i can explain what are basis for all those new provinces if it's necesary.

and it would be cool to split Caucasus mountains to add Dariali pass in center of it.

The Darial originates from Dar-i Alān (در الان) meaning "Gate of the Alans"

it must connect Alania and Mtianeti regions.
Mtianeti must get extra fortifications or bonus defenses during siege

Spoiler

like every settlements in Mtianeti had it's own unique defensive towers