Georgia Changes for Flavour and Accuracy

[Delurker]

I’d like to make some suggestions for how to improve Georgia in the game.


First I’d like to suggest some dynamic province names:

Spoiler

12 Sjælland - Zelandia


41 Koenigsberg – Kenigsbergi


50 Berlin – Berlini


85 Koeln - K'elni


97 Holland - Holandia


101 Genoa - Genua


102 Nice – Nitsa


110 Trent - Trento


112 Venezia – Venetsia


113 Ferrara - Ferara


115 Pisa - Piza


116 Firenze -Florentsia


118 Roma – Romi


121 Napoli – Neapoli


134 Wien - Vena


144 Epirus – Epiri?


146 Athens – Ateni


147 Thessaly – Tesalia?


148 Macedonia - Mak'edonia


149 Edirne – Adrianopoli


150 Tarnovo – Tirnovo?


151 Constantinople - (Istanbul = Stanbuli; Constantinople = K'onst'ant'inop'oli)


153 Pest – Peshti?


163 Crete - Kreta


183 Paris – P’arizi


236 London - Londoni


257 Warszawa – Varshava


262 Krakow - Krakovi


280 Kiev - Kievi


284 Crimea – Qirimi


286 Azov – Azovi (I think)


287 Kuban – Jiketi


(N.B. Kuban should have alternative name if Circassia takes it - Pshyze)


295 Moskva – Mosk’ovi


310 Novgorod – (Didi) Novgorodi – “Didi” means “The Great”, like “Velikiy Novgorod” in Russian


317 Hüdavendigar – Bursa (or Brusa)


319 Mentese – Menteshe?


320 Rhodes – Rodosi


321 Cyprus - K'vip'rosi


327 Adana - Adana


328 Sinop – Sinopi


329 Sivas - several options – Sebastia probably best


330 Trebizond - T'rap'izoni


331 Erzurum - Karnu-Kalaki is probably the best choice


365 Sinai - Sinai


379 Jerusalem – Ierusalimi


382 Damascus - Damask'i


410 Baghdad - Baghdadi


411 Mosul – Mosuli

Edit to add: 416 Tabriz - Tavrizi

418 Diyarbakir - Diarbakiri


419 Yerevan – Erivani/Erebuni


421 Shirvan = Shirvani


424 Ardabil - Ardebili


428 Teheran - Teirani


429 Isfahan – Ispaani


442 Bukhara - Bukhara


445 Merv - Mervi


454 Samarkand - Samarqandi


462 Mingrelia – Samegrelo - Mingrelia is the Russian name, not the Georgian one. EDIT: on further reading actually Odishi is an even better choice for the name of the province than Samegrelo, which was only really used in the 19th century. Definitely not Mingrelia though.


463 Circassia – Cherkezeti


464 Astrakhan - Ast'rakhani


475 Bashkortostan - Bashk'ireti


522 Delhi – Deli


1765 Sofia – Sofia


1773 Achaea - Akaia


1816 Beijing - P'ek'ini


1855 Sidon - Sidoni


2205 Nakhchivan – Nakhichevani


2208 Terek – Tergi


2218 Shiraz - Shirazi


2306 Mush - Mushi


2307 Van – Vani


2313 Antioch - Ant'iokia


2331 Jeddah – Jida


2348 Chios - Kiosi

Other changes:

My major source for all this is Edge of Empires: a History of Georgia by Donald Rayfield, which as far as I can tell is the most comprehensive study available in English. All the events apart from the baths one are featured in that text. Many of these ideas have been suggested before on these forums but I wanted to collate and polish them a bit, as well as back them up a bit more with sources so they seem more credible to those who don’t know this region very well.

The Darial Pass

The South Caucasus should have a break in the middle for the Darial Pass. It should link Kartli to Alania. The Darial Pass was very important in the history of the region. In the period roughly 1000-1400 the fact that the pass was controlled by Georgians or their allies (the Ossetians) was crucial in stopping Georgia being invaded by the steppe peoples to the North. Later, when Russia finally decisively invaded Georgia at the end of the 1700s, they did so through the Darial Pass. The current situation is ahistorical and encourages powers in the Northern Caucasus to attack via Abkhazia, which was famously difficult and swampy terrain in real life and so was only subdued by the Russian Empire later.

Darbazi

Very minor, but if possible it would be nice to change the “Call Diet” action in the estates tabs to “Call Darbazi”, since that was the name of the roughly equivalent Georgian institution (it was basically the King’s council.) For added flavour, it could increase the influence of the clergy as well as the nobility, as the key religious figures were also invited to darbazis.

Noble influence

A small change that I don’t know how easy it would be to modify, but the common thread for Georgia in this period is a strong and disloyal nobility. It would be good to have higher noble influence as a result, to make it harder to manage that estate. I think there’s a reasonable case for making Georgia a Feudal Monarchy rather than a Despotic Monarchy.

Events:

Currently, Georgia has no events of its own at all. I am aware that it's a bit difficult to create events for Georgia because it spent most of the period hopelessly split, with the West under the thumb of the Ottomans and the East the Persians. For this reason I've gone for cultural achievements because 1) they're not railroady and 2) they are not dependent on the overall geopolitical situation to the same extent. Here are my suggestions. I'm flexible on the effects they have - the aim is to provide flavour for a tag that has no flavour of its own beyond being Orthodox at the moment, not to turn Georgia into some kind of superpower.

Spoiler

Zaza Panaskerteli-Tsitsishvili’s Karabadini


Conditions:


Year = 1486 or so


http://www.medgeo.net/2009/12/25/სამკურნალო-წიგნი-კარაბად/ (kinda has picture – but could just use generic manuscript pic)


(In 1486) Eristavi Zaza Panaskerteli-Tsitsishvili wrote and compiled an important collection of Georgian medical knowledge. Drawing on Galenic and Sumerian ideas, as well as local remedies, the two volumes of the Karabadini describe methods of identifying diseases and how to examine patients. The Karabadini examines both physical and mental illnesses. Mental illnesses are said to be a product of physical issues in the brain, and therefore they require medication, not magic rituals. In Panaskerteli-Tsitsishvili’s opinion, it is necessary to heal the patient using accurate knowledge based on rational methods of treatment.


Our people shall benefit greatly from this work!


Effects:


+10% population growth (same as Medical Evolution event) for 500 days or whatever (maybe lower but for longer?)


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Sayat-Nova

Sayat-Nova was a renowned ashugh (troubadour) singer in the 18th century. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayat-Nova). He was ethnically Armenian but came from Tbilisi and King Erekle II of Georgia patronised him.


The event should fire from 1740 to 1765


"A wandering ashugh who calls himself Sayat-Nova has come to our court singing songs of love and merriment in all the languages of the South Caucasus. Shall we patronise him?"


YES > pay x money, gain prestige


NO > lose prestige


Note: Since Sayat-Nova was ethnically Armenian, it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that if an Armenian state had existed at the time he would have tried to gain patronage there, especially after being banished from Erekle II's court. Therefore I propose this event be assigned to Armenia as well. These days he seems to be more famous in Armenian circles than Georgian ones anyway, thanks to being in The Colour of Pomegranates.

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Year is at least 1675. Year is before 1715



Sulkhan-Saba Orbeliani

Sulkhan-Saba Orbeliani (1658-1725) was a Georgian polymath. He wrote Georgia's first dictionary, wrote a classic of Georgian literature called A Book of Wisdom and Lies when he was only in his 20s, and later was sent as a diplomat to France to try to create an alliance with Louis XIV (Louis died and it came to nothing.) He was also a Catholic monk for a while. Interesting guy. I want to leave the diplomatic stuff out of the blurb because it feels a bit railroady.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulkhan-Saba_Orbeliani


"Sulkhan-Saba Orbeliani (1658-1725) was a Georgian polymath. He wrote A Book of Wisdom and Lies (Tsigni Sibrdzne Sitsruisa), a classic of Georgian literature that uses fables to explore human folly and how to live a more moral life. He also wrote the first Georgian dictionary and was instrumental in the development of printing and literacy in the country."


We are fortunate to have such a talent in our realm.


Effects:

Gain 50 Admin

Gain 10 prestige

(I'd be tempted to have something about increasing institution spread speed here.)


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This event is not *quite* historical. Due to Eastern Georgia's subjugation to the Persians, there was rather little development of urban and social infrastructure there until Vakhtang VI. However, in the game Georgia would almost inevitably have to be independent or they wouldn't be being played, so I think there's a case to be made that they would have invested in this area if they'd had the wherewithal. And there is historical evidence that the baths were being used more by common people in the 17th century. And the oldest still existing bathhouse is from 1726, so well within the timeframe. (http://www.eurasianet.org/node/64912)


Year is at least 1650.


Develop the Tbilisi Baths

We Georgians have been bathing in public baths since the days of the Roman Empire. Indeed our capital Tbilisi was built on hot springs by Vakhtang Gorgasali in the 5th century CE. Since then, we have enjoyed the warm sulphurous waters there. Now, under the cultural influence of the Islamic Empires to our south, the common people and our soldiers have become ever more keen to wash their cares away. We should build more bathhouses to satisfy public demand and show our munificence.


Yes, let us provide for our people in this way.

Pay x money, gain 10 prestige.


No, our people have no need of such amusements.

Lose 5 prestige.

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Growth of Armenian Diaspora

Triggers: Armenia does not exist

Year is at least 1600

“Our fellow Christians the Armenians have begun settling in our fair land. They are bringing prosperity to our capital, but some of our people are uneasy at the presence of so many foreigners in our midst.”


Let them stay!

+2 base tax, +1 unrest in Kartli


We have no need of these interlopers!

Lose 5 prestige?


Context: there were a lot of Armenians in Tbilisi and they actually formed the vast majority of the population in the 19th century.

Finally, I’d like to discuss Georgia’s National Ideas.

Spoiler

Georgia’s current National Ideas:

Traditions:

Traditions:

+50% Hostile core-creation cost on us

−10% Shock damage received



Chance of new heir.png Bagrationi Dynasty

+50% Chance of new heir



Improve relations.png Georgian Isolation

+30% Improve relations



Construction cost.png Restoration of Fortresses and Churches

−10% Construction cost



Income from vassals.png Georgian Protectorates

+20% Income from vassals



Stability cost modifier.png Samouravo Counties

−10% Stability cost modifier



Manpower recovery speed.png Sadrosho Districts

+20% Manpower recovery speed



Diplomatic reputation.png Georgian Embassies

+1 Diplomatic reputation



Idea bonus.png Ambition:

−20% Infantry cost



My comments:

There are a couple of these that stick out as being unfitting. First is Georgian Protectorates. Simply put, during the time period of the game, Georgia basically never had any vassals so I have no idea why this is part of the National Ideas. The Georgia of the Golden Age had some vassal states e.g. Ganja for brief periods, the Ossetians/Alans were kind of vassals for a bit in the same time period, and there was the historic relationship to Trebizond. But Trebizond is the only one of these which might be applicable in game terms from 1444 onwards and they only existed until 1461! The constituent parts of Georgia were vassals of other powers (the Ottomans and the Persians) but that does not make this idea make any more sense. I note that I’m not the only person on these forums to have made this point (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...erhaul-suggestion.979905/page-3#post-22755127).

The other one of these that I’m not keen on is Samouravo Counties. Although these were indeed created by Giorgi VIII/I of Kakhetia in the late 1400s, 1) that was only in part of the territory of Georgia and more importantly 2) Georgia afterwards, particularly in the West, was an absolute nest of snakes basically until King Vakhtang VI or so, so reducing stability cost really doesn’t fit the times. (Referring to a slightly more restricted period, Rayfield says “The story of western Georgia between the death of King Alexandre [i.e. 1660] and the accession of King Solomon I [i.e. 1752] is a confusing vortex of internecine war, depositions and restorations, abduction, adultery, mutilation, murder and treachery. The only consolation for the student of Imeretian-Gurian-Mingrelian history is that it was even more terrible to endure in reality than to read about in retrospect.”) Plus to be honest -10% stability cost modifier is pretty boring and limited.


Instead I would like to suggest some alternatives that seem much more suitable. The first of these is an idea for reduced war exhaustion. Again, this is not an original idea on these forums http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...erhaul-suggestion.979905/page-3#post-22755127). One of the key threads of Georgian history in this period is that they just kept fighting and resisting (particularly the Muslim empires – not Russia quite so much), even though they usually lost in the end. King Teimuraz I spent 50 years resisting the Persians in the first half of the 1600s, losing and regaining his throne repeatedly in the process. Later, the 300 Aragvians would become famous for their last stand (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Hundred_Aragvians). When Georgians weren’t fighting the empires that had vassalised them they were fighting one another. The principalities of Western Georgia in particular fought each other over and over again in this period.


Resistance to Foreign Domination

“In spite of our small size compared to the mighty empires around us, we defend our land against all-comers. Our tenacity in the face of adversity has kept the idea of Georgia alive even through our darkest hours as a nation.”

-0.02 monthly war exhaustion

(If anyone can come up with a better name for this idea I’m all ears. I would call it Legacy of the 300 Aragvians but since they come up at the end of the period rather than the beginning it would seem a bit odd.)


The second is something relating to Georgia’s Orthodox faith. Georgia was a very early adopter of Christianity (they tend to say the second after Armenia but I understand there’s a bit of dispute about that) and Orthodoxy has remained a central part of Georgian identity since the 300s. Indeed, in the tenth century, Giorgi Merchule defined Georgia as anywhere where Mass was said in Georgian. Also, unlike say the Russians, who had a variety of sects split off from the main church, as far as I know this never really happened in Georgia. Moreover, their Orthodoxy was crucial to their foreign policy in this period. They kept trying to draw closer to Russia because Russia, unlike the Ottomans and the Persians, was an Orthodox power. Even when some of the rulers of Kakheti, Kartli and Imereti converted to Islam, this was always under strong pressure from the imperial power and usually just for show. Samtskhe was a bit of an exception admittedly, and became rather Muslim under the Ottomans.

So my suggestion for this would be:

St Nino’s Cross

“In the 4th century, St Nino cured Queen Nana of Iberia of a mortal illness. As a result, her husband, King Mirian, made Christianity our state religion. Since that time, we Georgians have tightly held on to our Christian faith. As one of the first Christian nations, it is crucial for us to maintain our faith against all others. May we one day once again have the strength to aid our brethren in Jerusalem!”

Tolerance of the True Faith +2

OR

Something that increases the new Patriarch Authority from Third Rome.

(Note: once again, this is not an original idea: (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...e-of-new-effects.1031640/page-2#post-23034910))

Note: St Nino was the one who converted Georgia to Christianity. Her cross, made of vine branches, is a symbol of Georgian Christianity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grapevine_cross). The Georgians set up a monastery in Jerusalem long before 1444 but had increasingly little power to protect their clergy and so on, hence the last line.

I would suggest making this an early idea, possibly even a tradition, but certainly one of the first 2 ideas.


There are four other elements of Georgian history that I think would be particularly appropriate for National Ideas, but I haven’t totally fleshed them out yet. Those are the history as being possibly the birthplace of wine; Vakhtang VI’s code the dasturlamali (a late idea which would reduce unrest in some way) and relatedly the institution of serfdom, or patronqmoba, which was extremely persistent and created a society of nobles and peasants; and something relating to fort maintenance (there are castles all over Georgia, and in particular Svaneti deserves a mention as a place where every single family had their own defensive tower https://www.georgianjournal.ge/pictures/image2/5498601486b096ab6031b59ef9f73764.jpg.) As for which ideas would be eliminated, I know many people find Hostile Core Creation Cost boring, although I understand the gameplay reasons for why that might be necessary. Controversially, since it seems like a bit of a nerf, I’d be tempted to get rid of one of the two diplomatic ideas. Georgia absolutely did send out emissaries throughout the period, but they were notably unsuccessful in gaining support from larger powers, whether they be the Pope, France, or indeed Russia under Peter the Great, who promised support and didn’t show up in 1722. The one exception is the Traktat they signed with Russia under Catherine the Great, which the Russians promptly broke and led to them being annexed. I’m also not particularly keen on the Ambition being reduced infantry cost but I don’t have a strong idea of what to replace it with.

There are obviously lots of more fundamental changes that could be made to Georgia too (a complicated event chain to simulate its breakup in the late 1400s, the introduction of Ossetian and Abkhaz cultures to the game, and so on) but this is long enough already. Thank you if you’ve read to the end. I don’t speak Georgian sadly (although I do speak some Russian) so I’m sure I’ve made plenty of mistakes - please pick me up on them.
I'd like to credit the participants on these threads: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/rome-by-the-euxine.980305/ https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ion-comprehensive-overhaul-suggestion.979905/ as being particularly helpful.

 

[Delurker]

Even though I liked this event I believe that your suggested bonuses are way too powerful and unrealistic to be honest. And since when Catholic priests are known for their innovations and spreading technology apart from the Jesuit Order?

My humble suggestion would be:
+2 tolerance of heretics until the monarch death
+50 relationship with Papal States
+1 diplomatic reputation
-1 tolerance of true faith until the monarch death

The bonuses I wrote up were basically just to give the effect that Georgian provinces would have a chance to convert to Catholicism from 1630-1730 or whatever. They seemed strong because I understood that Orthodox provinces don't convert to other denominations so easily rather than because I wanted to give Georgia a big boost per se. And um I don't know what to tell you - the Catholic priests were really important in spreading Western knowledge into Georgia! They were the only doctors there for a while and they spread printing there, which didn't exist before they arrived basically. They taught Orbeliani, who advised and taught his nephew Vakhtang VI, who introduced tons of important modernising reforms. Their influence lasted til Vakhtang exiled himself to Russia i.e. about 100 years.

 

[JonSnow]

I think they've done it so Georgia doesn't always get wiped out within a few years of the game start. If they have a huge uprising they will be too weak early on and just get hit by the other nations that they are hostile with.

Ye but I think it's easier to wipe out three tags with three provinces each than one country with 9 provinces(with vassal). But I don't have a problem with wiping out countries, I have it with the historical accuracy.

Devs are improving with this patch a lot, creating more more provinces, and new tag samtskhe.

But IMHO it's just not accurate to have three tags in ex Georgian Territory in 1444.

 

[Delurker]

My read of it is that having simulated united Georgia pre-patch, they've gone in the opposite direction altogether and want to simulate it broken up. Which is defensible if they don't want to create a bunch of Wars of the Roses style events (although that'd be the ideal, I can see why they might not think it's worth the effort to create them and make them work effectively.) But they also really don't like making more tags for this area for whatever reason. Given those two constraints, the rest follows. TBH my solution if they don't want to do lots of events is to do what they did, but 1) Add Kakheti as a separate tag, since it was the third of the independent kingdoms and 2) make all the provinces Imereti owns aside from Imereti itself have really high autonomy (and maybe even rebels) which would be an alright way of simulating the de-facto independent princedoms without adding more tags. But without a separate Kakheti tag it all seems a bit neither one thing not the other. Obviously it's not quite historical for 1444 either way though.

 

[JonSnow]

Oh I forgot about high autonomy. I think that's a accurate way of depicting the situation in in 1444. And later one could insert an event (maybe with prestige hit) to allow 100% autonomy or a massive rebellion.

Regarding the tags all tags are accurate historically: imereti, kahkheti, samtske, kartli (Georgia).

Regarding kahkheti tag is very accurate suggestion. It's funny how actual King of Georgia Giorgi VIII in the end became king Giorgi I of kahkheti.

 

[Yiyo]

Odd choice to have the Black sea unit pack only for Circassia and not for Georgia, given the similarity and historical importance of Georgia in the region.

 

[Delurker]

Given the proposals in the new patch, I thought it would be good to update a few aspects of my suggestions. So:

• One of Tbilisi and Kartli should be dyes and the other silk. Probably Tbilisi is better as silk but I can see both sides of the argument. Or Kartli could be wine I suppose but that’s a bit boring. Karbardia should have the new livestock good rather than wine.

• Develop the Tbilisi Baths and Growth of Armenian Diaspora events should both obviously happen in Tbilisi, not Kartli.

I don’t know if Samtskhe and Imereti will get new NIs but I think my proposals are still valid for them either way. I’ve also thought of a more fitting ambition than -20% infantry cost: autonomy reduction (say -0.05 since that’s the value in other Nis and it should be fairly decent if it’s the ambition) to symbolise (and help with) the reconstruction of a united and cohesive Georgian state once again after the breakup.



As regards the patch as a whole, it’s a bit of a weird one. What we’ve had up til now is a united Georgia. What we’re getting instead is Georgia post-breakup. For those who don’t know the history, what *should* happen to Georgia (to summarise a lot) is at game start, it should be more-or-less united, but should rapidly break up into three kingdoms (Kartli, Kakheti and Imereti) and lots of principalities (Samtskhe, Abkhazia, Odishi, Guria, and even some others that don’t get provinces in the game) so that by the 1470s de-facto and the 1490s de jure a united Georgia no longer exists. So the ideal solution from a historical perspective would be to begin with a united Georgia and have Wars of the Roses style events to split the country up. It’s a bit of a shame that the devs don’t seem to want to go down that route – I suppose because they think it’d be too much work, and some of the succession issues are quite hard to simulate to be fair. So instead they’ve basically simulated Georgia in 1470 or so.

I think that’s a defensible choice, if not ideal. So I’m happy with Samtskhe, and extra provinces are always nice. But if you’re going to simulate post-breakup Georgia you need to have all three kingdoms – that’s just fundamental. And instead we only have Kartli and Imereti. I’d therefore argue that an independent Kingdom of Kakheti is a requirement for this patch to make any sense as an approximation of history. Kartli and Kakheti were united as the Kingdom of Kartli-Kakheti, but that didn’t happen until the 1600s at the earliest depending on exactly how you define it, and arguably only the mid-1700s. In as much as they were linked before that time it was because they were both under Persian suzerainty. I get that the devs want Georgia as a whole to be able to stand up to the Ottomans, AQ, QQ etc. at least to some extent, but this is a merger too far. If they’re really desperate not to create another OPM, just make another province for Kakheti – say Hereti. For what it’s worth I’d probably prefer for the three kingdoms to just have Georgian NIs rather than their own individual ones, so it wouldn't require coming up with new NIs to do it. As regards Imereti, hopefully, as I suggested above, all the provinces of Imereti aside from Imereti itself will have very very high autonomy and possibly rebels, since they were semi-independent principalities throughout the period.

This patch is very very close to being excellent, but without Kakheti it’ll just be weird and ahistorical unfortunately.

 

[Machabeli]

Given the proposals in the new patch, I thought it would be good to update a few aspects of my suggestions. So:

• One of Tbilisi and Kartli should be dyes and the other silk. Probably Tbilisi is better as silk but I can see both sides of the argument. Or Kartli could be wine I suppose but that’s a bit boring. Karbardia should have the new livestock good rather than wine.

• Develop the Tbilisi Baths and Growth of Armenian Diaspora events should both obviously happen in Tbilisi, not Kartli.

I don’t know if Samtskhe and Imereti will get new NIs but I think my proposals are still valid for them either way. I’ve also thought of a more fitting ambition than -20% infantry cost: autonomy reduction (say -0.05 since that’s the value in other Nis and it should be fairly decent if it’s the ambition) to symbolise (and help with) the reconstruction of a united and cohesive Georgian state once again after the breakup.



As regards the patch as a whole, it’s a bit of a weird one. What we’ve had up til now is a united Georgia. What we’re getting instead is Georgia post-breakup. For those who don’t know the history, what *should* happen to Georgia (to summarise a lot) is at game start, it should be more-or-less united, but should rapidly break up into three kingdoms (Kartli, Kakheti and Imereti) and lots of principalities (Samtskhe, Abkhazia, Odishi, Guria, and even some others that don’t get provinces in the game) so that by the 1470s de-facto and the 1490s de jure a united Georgia no longer exists. So the ideal solution from a historical perspective would be to begin with a united Georgia and have Wars of the Roses style events to split the country up. It’s a bit of a shame that the devs don’t seem to want to go down that route – I suppose because they think it’d be too much work, and some of the succession issues are quite hard to simulate to be fair. So instead they’ve basically simulated Georgia in 1470 or so.

I think that’s a defensible choice, if not ideal. So I’m happy with Samtskhe, and extra provinces are always nice. But if you’re going to simulate post-breakup Georgia you need to have all three kingdoms – that’s just fundamental. And instead we only have Kartli and Imereti. I’d therefore argue that an independent Kingdom of Kakheti is a requirement for this patch to make any sense as an approximation of history. Kartli and Kakheti were united as the Kingdom of Kartli-Kakheti, but that didn’t happen until the 1600s at the earliest depending on exactly how you define it, and arguably only the mid-1700s. In as much as they were linked before that time it was because they were both under Persian suzerainty. I get that the devs want Georgia as a whole to be able to stand up to the Ottomans, AQ, QQ etc. at least to some extent, but this is a merger too far. If they’re really desperate not to create another OPM, just make another province for Kakheti – say Hereti. For what it’s worth I’d probably prefer for the three kingdoms to just have Georgian NIs rather than their own individual ones, so it wouldn't require coming up with new NIs to do it. As regards Imereti, hopefully, as I suggested above, all the provinces of Imereti aside from Imereti itself will have very very high autonomy and possibly rebels, since they were semi-independent principalities throughout the period.

This patch is very very close to being excellent, but without Kakheti it’ll just be weird and ahistorical unfortunately.

Also they should add svaneti https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...r_dissolution_as_a_unified_state,_1490_AD.svg

 

[Delurker]

Also they should add svaneti https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/Kingdom_of_Georgia_after_dissolution_as_a_unified_state,_1490_AD.svg

I'd certainly like Svaneti - it'd be nice and it's a really cool, beautiful place - but it didn't have a enormous impact on Georgian history as a whole overall, so I'd say it's a nice to have rather than an essential. It would make it easier to choose more appropriate terrains for the provinces of Western Georgia though.

 

[Machabeli]

I'd certainly like Svaneti - it'd be nice and it's a really cool, beautiful place - but it didn't have a enormous impact on Georgian history as a whole overall, so I'd say it's a nice to have rather than an essential. It would make it easier to choose more appropriate terrains for the provinces of Western Georgia though.

Yeah it would be nice if they would add it since they are following this map from what it looks like https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/Kingdom_of_Georgia_after_dissolution_as_a_unified_state,_1490_AD.svg http://forumcontent.paradoxplaza.com/public/277832/georgia.jpg. (btw they should really separate kartli and kakheti into separate kingdoms having them tagged as Georgia doesn't really make sense, not to mention Georgia shouldn't be separated right from the start.)

 

[Machabeli]

Well anyhow i'm really looking forward to this.

 

[Machabeli]

Oh I forgot about high autonomy. I think that's a accurate way of depicting the situation in in 1444. And later one could insert an event (maybe with prestige hit) to allow 100% autonomy or a massive rebellion.

Regarding the tags all tags are accurate historically: imereti, kahkheti, samtske, kartli (Georgia).

Regarding kahkheti tag is very accurate suggestion. It's funny how actual King of Georgia Giorgi VIII in the end became king Giorgi I of kahkheti.

Now that i think about it shouldn't Samtskhe instead be called Meskheti?

 

[Delurker]

Now that i think about it shouldn't Samtskhe instead be called Meskheti?

I'm not a Georgian speaker but the Georgian wikipedia has it under the name Samtskhe-Saatabago so I'd have thought Samtskhe would be fine. https://ka.wikipedia.org/wiki/სამცხე-საათაბაგო

 

[Machabeli]

I'm not a Georgian speaker but the Georgian wikipedia has it under the name Samtskhe-Saatabago so I'd have thought Samtskhe would be fine. https://ka.wikipedia.org/wiki/სამცხე-საათაბაგო

Well at any rate i'm really looking forward to this.(plz paradox make Guria, Imereti and Odishi(mingrelia) non mountainous)

 

[AirikrStrife]

Concerning starting off Immereti and Samtshke as independent, I think this is the best way to represent the framentation of Georgia, de jure Vakhtang was king of all of Georgia but Demetrius is de facto ruler of Immerati and upon Vakhtang's death civil war broke out. This new set up beter represents the de facto distribution of power, rebels would not be accurate and just make things annoying and high autonomy would have about the same effect,

that said, I would have preffered to have Kakheti independent and see the province of Svaneti as well as Lazica/Lazistan.

 

[Delurker]

So in the latest dev diary we get to see the new distribution of trade goods. (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...evelopment-diary-22nd-of-august-2017.1040675/) While I’m happy about the addition of a livestock good for the North Caucasian plain, there have been few changes to Georgia itself and the ones that have been made are bad. Kakheti is still copper instead of wine. I’ve tried my best to work out why, and here’s what I can come up with. Georgia minted some copper coins for their own internal use in the 1700s, using copper that may have been minted in a small area of Kakheti. https://www.academia.edu/3080573/Co...elf-Cost_of_the_Contemporary_Copper_Currency_ The main copper (and silver) mines in “Georgia” seem to have been in a place called Alaverdi, which did see some expansion in the mid-1700s. This Alaverdi was in modern Armenia in the Northern province of Lore, which would probably just about qualify as being in Tbilisi province in the update (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaverdi,_Armenia). Unfortunately, there’s another place called Alaverdi that’s in Kakheti (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaverdi_Monastery) and the devs look like they’ve confused the two. But just to reiterate this point: this is like having Bordeaux with copper as a trade good. It’s just bizarre. Of all the provinces of Georgia, Kakheti is the one that most deserves to have wine as a trade good, and it’s one of the few to miss out. And to be honest I’m not sure using trade goods that only became important 70 years before the end of the game is particularly sensible.

We also have a new trade good for Kartli now that it’s been split from Tbilisi. Unfortunately, that good is wool. My only explanation for this is that Kartli is effectively Ossetia for the game’s purposes. Which is sort of half-right geographically – modern South Ossetia is within the area that they’ve drawn as Kartli. And as I think I wrote before, wool is a perfectly reasonable good for Ossetia as a whole, although iron is perhaps a little better. However, just to the North, we have the province of Alania, which has still somehow got wine! As I’m sure the devs are aware, the Alans became the Ossetians. Whereas the Kartlians were an integral part of Georgia, from which the Georgian name of their whole country actually derives (Sakartvelo). So surely Alania should represent the Ossetians and Kartli the non-Ossetian parts of that area? I mean, ideally the devs would redraw the provinces a bit so Alania encompassed a bit to the south of the mountains as well, but still. I know I suggested silk as a trade good for Kartli before, but at least let it have wine! And then give Alania wool or iron. The arrangement in the latest dev diary is nonsensical.

Guria remains fish, which I don’t love, but okay. EDIT TO ADD: The real problem with giving any Georgian province fish is that the bonus you get gives you +25% sailors modifier. And Georgia throughout its history never had a navy at all beyond a couple of fishing boats. So it's less than fitting.

Tbilisi has dyes, which I’m fine with. Imereti keeps cloth, which I’m not thrilled with either but it could be worse. Caffa and Kabarda still have wine, which sucks, especially Kabarda. And the net effect is that Georgia has no grain provinces at all, which seems a shame. I’m not totally sure on Tao’s trade good but wool seems less egregious there at least – I might have to do some research.

In summary, overall this has not been my favourite dev diary.

 

[Machabeli]

So in the latest dev diary we get to see the new distribution of trade goods. (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...evelopment-diary-22nd-of-august-2017.1040675/) While I’m happy about the addition of a livestock good for the North Caucasian plain, there have been few changes to Georgia itself and the ones that have been made are bad. Kakheti is still copper instead of wine. I’ve tried my best to work out why, and here’s what I can come up with. Georgia minted some copper coins for their own internal use in the 1700s, using copper that may have been minted in a small area of Kakheti. https://www.academia.edu/3080573/Co...elf-Cost_of_the_Contemporary_Copper_Currency_ The main copper (and silver) mines in “Georgia” seem to have been in a place called Alaverdi, which did see some expansion in the mid-1700s. This Alaverdi was in modern Armenia in the Northern province of Lore, which would probably just about qualify as being in Tbilisi province in the update (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaverdi,_Armenia). Unfortunately, there’s another place called Alaverdi that’s in Kakheti (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaverdi_Monastery) and the devs look like they’ve confused the two. But just to reiterate this point: this is like having Bordeaux with copper as a trade good. It’s just bizarre. Of all the provinces of Georgia, Kakheti is the one that most deserves to have wine as a trade good, and it’s one of the few to miss out. And to be honest I’m not sure using trade goods that only became important 70 years before the end of the game is particularly sensible.

We also have a new trade good for Kartli now that it’s been split from Tbilisi. Unfortunately, that good is wool. My only explanation for this is that Kartli is effectively Ossetia for the game’s purposes. Which is sort of half-right geographically – modern South Ossetia is within the area that they’ve drawn as Kartli. And as I think I wrote before, wool is a perfectly reasonable good for Ossetia as a whole, although iron is perhaps a little better. However, just to the North, we have the province of Alania, which has still somehow got wine! As I’m sure the devs are aware, the Alans became the Ossetians. Whereas the Kartlians were an integral part of Georgia, from which the Georgian name of their whole country actually derives (Sakartvelo). So surely Alania should represent the Ossetians and Kartli the non-Ossetian parts of that area? I mean, ideally the devs would redraw the provinces a bit so Alania encompassed a bit to the south of the mountains as well, but still. I know I suggested silk as a trade good for Kartli before, but at least let it have wine! And then give Alania wool or iron. The arrangement in the latest dev diary is nonsensical.

Guria remains fish, which I don’t love, but okay. EDIT TO ADD: The real problem with giving any Georgian province fish is that the bonus you get gives you +25% sailors modifier. And Georgia throughout its history never had a navy at all beyond a couple of fishing boats. So it's less than fitting.

Tbilisi has dyes, which I’m fine with. Imereti keeps cloth, which I’m not thrilled with either but it could be worse. Caffa and Kabarda still have wine, which sucks, especially Kabarda. And the net effect is that Georgia has no grain provinces at all, which seems a shame. I’m not totally sure on Tao’s trade good but wool seems less egregious there at least – I might have to do some research.

In summary, overall this has not been my favourite dev diary.

Nah Ossetians didn't live in Georgia at that time period Ossetian migration started centuries later but of course that doesn't mean that Ossetians weren't integral part of Georgian territory in fact The word Ossetian comes from the Georgian ოსი(osi).

 

[Delurker]

Nah Ossetians didn't live in Georgia at that time period Ossetian migration started centuries later but of course that doesn't mean that Ossetians weren't integral part of Georgian territory in fact The word Ossetian comes from the Georgian ოსი(osi).

Well that was a poor choice of words on my part. I don't want to start arguing who or where is and isn't an integral part of Georgia - I'm not interested in nationalist arguments (not saying you're making one, just want to avoid setting one off.) In any case I don't think it affects my point: that Kartli should have wine/silk and Alania should have wool/iron, not the other way around.

 

[Machabeli]

Well that was a poor choice of words on my part. I don't want to start arguing who or where is and isn't an integral part of Georgia - I'm not interested in nationalist arguments (not saying you're making one, just want to avoid setting one off.) In any case I don't think it affects my point: that Kartli should have wine/silk and Alania should have wool/iron, not the other way around.

Yeah i just wanted to share some information about Ossetian History in Georgia nothing nationalistic about it, yeah they should really change that.(and again Kartli looks soo out of place i mean ugh).

 

[AirikrStrife]

Nah Ossetians didn't live in Georgia at that time period Ossetian migration started centuries later but of course that doesn't mean that Ossetians weren't integral part of Georgian territory in fact The word Ossetian comes from the Georgian ოსი(osi).

Not to start a nationalistic debatte but rather writing due to curiousity, but what are your sources on that? The ones I looked at are usually uncertain at the actual point of ossetian migration south of the mountains. Also the issue of the identity of dvaletians makes things more complicated.
Possibly Dvaleti could have been a province covering parts of northern georgia, the darial gorge and a fringe of the Alania province

@Delurker can agree with most of your frustration. At first I was just so happy to see Georgia finally getting a revamp, and a lot of good stuff to, but it definitly could have been better. Wine should definitly have been the trade goods of Kakheti. Your best call in making a change like that (which might be possible even at this stage) is to make a post about that one issue.

 

[Delurker]

@Delurker can agree with most of your frustration. At first I was just so happy to see Georgia finally getting a revamp, and a lot of good stuff to, but it definitly could have been better. Wine should definitly have been the trade goods of Kakheti. Your best call in making a change like that (which might be possible even at this stage) is to make a post about that one issue.

Yeah, I think I'll wait a couple of days and if I don't see the devs responding I'll do that. I'm just conscious that I have a lot of suggestions to make (not just about Georgia!) and I don't want to clog up the Suggestions forum with my posts. I was happy and surprised to see Georgia getting an update too! It's just a bit disheartening when the proposed update doesn't even spell Tbilisi correctly - I get if the devs don't want to go to the effort of making another tag for Kakheti but basic mistakes like that get me down a bit.