Georgia Changes for Flavour and Accuracy

[Delurker]

I’d like to make some suggestions for how to improve Georgia in the game.


First I’d like to suggest some dynamic province names:

Spoiler

12 Sjælland - Zelandia


41 Koenigsberg – Kenigsbergi


50 Berlin – Berlini


85 Koeln - K'elni


97 Holland - Holandia


101 Genoa - Genua


102 Nice – Nitsa


110 Trent - Trento


112 Venezia – Venetsia


113 Ferrara - Ferara


115 Pisa - Piza


116 Firenze -Florentsia


118 Roma – Romi


121 Napoli – Neapoli


134 Wien - Vena


144 Epirus – Epiri?


146 Athens – Ateni


147 Thessaly – Tesalia?


148 Macedonia - Mak'edonia


149 Edirne – Adrianopoli


150 Tarnovo – Tirnovo?


151 Constantinople - (Istanbul = Stanbuli; Constantinople = K'onst'ant'inop'oli)


153 Pest – Peshti?


163 Crete - Kreta


183 Paris – P’arizi


236 London - Londoni


257 Warszawa – Varshava


262 Krakow - Krakovi


280 Kiev - Kievi


284 Crimea – Qirimi


286 Azov – Azovi (I think)


287 Kuban – Jiketi


(N.B. Kuban should have alternative name if Circassia takes it - Pshyze)


295 Moskva – Mosk’ovi


310 Novgorod – (Didi) Novgorodi – “Didi” means “The Great”, like “Velikiy Novgorod” in Russian


317 Hüdavendigar – Bursa (or Brusa)


319 Mentese – Menteshe?


320 Rhodes – Rodosi


321 Cyprus - K'vip'rosi


327 Adana - Adana


328 Sinop – Sinopi


329 Sivas - several options – Sebastia probably best


330 Trebizond - T'rap'izoni


331 Erzurum - Karnu-Kalaki is probably the best choice


365 Sinai - Sinai


379 Jerusalem – Ierusalimi


382 Damascus - Damask'i


410 Baghdad - Baghdadi


411 Mosul – Mosuli

Edit to add: 416 Tabriz - Tavrizi

418 Diyarbakir - Diarbakiri


419 Yerevan – Erivani/Erebuni


421 Shirvan = Shirvani


424 Ardabil - Ardebili


428 Teheran - Teirani


429 Isfahan – Ispaani


442 Bukhara - Bukhara


445 Merv - Mervi


454 Samarkand - Samarqandi


462 Mingrelia – Samegrelo - Mingrelia is the Russian name, not the Georgian one. EDIT: on further reading actually Odishi is an even better choice for the name of the province than Samegrelo, which was only really used in the 19th century. Definitely not Mingrelia though.


463 Circassia – Cherkezeti


464 Astrakhan - Ast'rakhani


475 Bashkortostan - Bashk'ireti


522 Delhi – Deli


1765 Sofia – Sofia


1773 Achaea - Akaia


1816 Beijing - P'ek'ini


1855 Sidon - Sidoni


2205 Nakhchivan – Nakhichevani


2208 Terek – Tergi


2218 Shiraz - Shirazi


2306 Mush - Mushi


2307 Van – Vani


2313 Antioch - Ant'iokia


2331 Jeddah – Jida


2348 Chios - Kiosi

Other changes:

My major source for all this is Edge of Empires: a History of Georgia by Donald Rayfield, which as far as I can tell is the most comprehensive study available in English. All the events apart from the baths one are featured in that text. Many of these ideas have been suggested before on these forums but I wanted to collate and polish them a bit, as well as back them up a bit more with sources so they seem more credible to those who don’t know this region very well.

The Darial Pass

The South Caucasus should have a break in the middle for the Darial Pass. It should link Kartli to Alania. The Darial Pass was very important in the history of the region. In the period roughly 1000-1400 the fact that the pass was controlled by Georgians or their allies (the Ossetians) was crucial in stopping Georgia being invaded by the steppe peoples to the North. Later, when Russia finally decisively invaded Georgia at the end of the 1700s, they did so through the Darial Pass. The current situation is ahistorical and encourages powers in the Northern Caucasus to attack via Abkhazia, which was famously difficult and swampy terrain in real life and so was only subdued by the Russian Empire later.

Darbazi

Very minor, but if possible it would be nice to change the “Call Diet” action in the estates tabs to “Call Darbazi”, since that was the name of the roughly equivalent Georgian institution (it was basically the King’s council.) For added flavour, it could increase the influence of the clergy as well as the nobility, as the key religious figures were also invited to darbazis.

Noble influence

A small change that I don’t know how easy it would be to modify, but the common thread for Georgia in this period is a strong and disloyal nobility. It would be good to have higher noble influence as a result, to make it harder to manage that estate. I think there’s a reasonable case for making Georgia a Feudal Monarchy rather than a Despotic Monarchy.

Events:

Currently, Georgia has no events of its own at all. I am aware that it's a bit difficult to create events for Georgia because it spent most of the period hopelessly split, with the West under the thumb of the Ottomans and the East the Persians. For this reason I've gone for cultural achievements because 1) they're not railroady and 2) they are not dependent on the overall geopolitical situation to the same extent. Here are my suggestions. I'm flexible on the effects they have - the aim is to provide flavour for a tag that has no flavour of its own beyond being Orthodox at the moment, not to turn Georgia into some kind of superpower.

Spoiler

Zaza Panaskerteli-Tsitsishvili’s Karabadini


Conditions:


Year = 1486 or so


http://www.medgeo.net/2009/12/25/სამკურნალო-წიგნი-კარაბად/ (kinda has picture – but could just use generic manuscript pic)


(In 1486) Eristavi Zaza Panaskerteli-Tsitsishvili wrote and compiled an important collection of Georgian medical knowledge. Drawing on Galenic and Sumerian ideas, as well as local remedies, the two volumes of the Karabadini describe methods of identifying diseases and how to examine patients. The Karabadini examines both physical and mental illnesses. Mental illnesses are said to be a product of physical issues in the brain, and therefore they require medication, not magic rituals. In Panaskerteli-Tsitsishvili’s opinion, it is necessary to heal the patient using accurate knowledge based on rational methods of treatment.


Our people shall benefit greatly from this work!


Effects:


+10% population growth (same as Medical Evolution event) for 500 days or whatever (maybe lower but for longer?)


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Sayat-Nova

Sayat-Nova was a renowned ashugh (troubadour) singer in the 18th century. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayat-Nova). He was ethnically Armenian but came from Tbilisi and King Erekle II of Georgia patronised him.


The event should fire from 1740 to 1765


"A wandering ashugh who calls himself Sayat-Nova has come to our court singing songs of love and merriment in all the languages of the South Caucasus. Shall we patronise him?"


YES > pay x money, gain prestige


NO > lose prestige


Note: Since Sayat-Nova was ethnically Armenian, it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that if an Armenian state had existed at the time he would have tried to gain patronage there, especially after being banished from Erekle II's court. Therefore I propose this event be assigned to Armenia as well. These days he seems to be more famous in Armenian circles than Georgian ones anyway, thanks to being in The Colour of Pomegranates.

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Year is at least 1675. Year is before 1715



Sulkhan-Saba Orbeliani

Sulkhan-Saba Orbeliani (1658-1725) was a Georgian polymath. He wrote Georgia's first dictionary, wrote a classic of Georgian literature called A Book of Wisdom and Lies when he was only in his 20s, and later was sent as a diplomat to France to try to create an alliance with Louis XIV (Louis died and it came to nothing.) He was also a Catholic monk for a while. Interesting guy. I want to leave the diplomatic stuff out of the blurb because it feels a bit railroady.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulkhan-Saba_Orbeliani


"Sulkhan-Saba Orbeliani (1658-1725) was a Georgian polymath. He wrote A Book of Wisdom and Lies (Tsigni Sibrdzne Sitsruisa), a classic of Georgian literature that uses fables to explore human folly and how to live a more moral life. He also wrote the first Georgian dictionary and was instrumental in the development of printing and literacy in the country."


We are fortunate to have such a talent in our realm.


Effects:

Gain 50 Admin

Gain 10 prestige

(I'd be tempted to have something about increasing institution spread speed here.)


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This event is not *quite* historical. Due to Eastern Georgia's subjugation to the Persians, there was rather little development of urban and social infrastructure there until Vakhtang VI. However, in the game Georgia would almost inevitably have to be independent or they wouldn't be being played, so I think there's a case to be made that they would have invested in this area if they'd had the wherewithal. And there is historical evidence that the baths were being used more by common people in the 17th century. And the oldest still existing bathhouse is from 1726, so well within the timeframe. (http://www.eurasianet.org/node/64912)


Year is at least 1650.


Develop the Tbilisi Baths

We Georgians have been bathing in public baths since the days of the Roman Empire. Indeed our capital Tbilisi was built on hot springs by Vakhtang Gorgasali in the 5th century CE. Since then, we have enjoyed the warm sulphurous waters there. Now, under the cultural influence of the Islamic Empires to our south, the common people and our soldiers have become ever more keen to wash their cares away. We should build more bathhouses to satisfy public demand and show our munificence.


Yes, let us provide for our people in this way.

Pay x money, gain 10 prestige.


No, our people have no need of such amusements.

Lose 5 prestige.

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Growth of Armenian Diaspora

Triggers: Armenia does not exist

Year is at least 1600

“Our fellow Christians the Armenians have begun settling in our fair land. They are bringing prosperity to our capital, but some of our people are uneasy at the presence of so many foreigners in our midst.”


Let them stay!

+2 base tax, +1 unrest in Kartli


We have no need of these interlopers!

Lose 5 prestige?


Context: there were a lot of Armenians in Tbilisi and they actually formed the vast majority of the population in the 19th century.

Finally, I’d like to discuss Georgia’s National Ideas.

Spoiler

Georgia’s current National Ideas:

Traditions:

Traditions:

+50% Hostile core-creation cost on us

−10% Shock damage received



Chance of new heir.png Bagrationi Dynasty

+50% Chance of new heir



Improve relations.png Georgian Isolation

+30% Improve relations



Construction cost.png Restoration of Fortresses and Churches

−10% Construction cost



Income from vassals.png Georgian Protectorates

+20% Income from vassals



Stability cost modifier.png Samouravo Counties

−10% Stability cost modifier



Manpower recovery speed.png Sadrosho Districts

+20% Manpower recovery speed



Diplomatic reputation.png Georgian Embassies

+1 Diplomatic reputation



Idea bonus.png Ambition:

−20% Infantry cost



My comments:

There are a couple of these that stick out as being unfitting. First is Georgian Protectorates. Simply put, during the time period of the game, Georgia basically never had any vassals so I have no idea why this is part of the National Ideas. The Georgia of the Golden Age had some vassal states e.g. Ganja for brief periods, the Ossetians/Alans were kind of vassals for a bit in the same time period, and there was the historic relationship to Trebizond. But Trebizond is the only one of these which might be applicable in game terms from 1444 onwards and they only existed until 1461! The constituent parts of Georgia were vassals of other powers (the Ottomans and the Persians) but that does not make this idea make any more sense. I note that I’m not the only person on these forums to have made this point (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...erhaul-suggestion.979905/page-3#post-22755127).

The other one of these that I’m not keen on is Samouravo Counties. Although these were indeed created by Giorgi VIII/I of Kakhetia in the late 1400s, 1) that was only in part of the territory of Georgia and more importantly 2) Georgia afterwards, particularly in the West, was an absolute nest of snakes basically until King Vakhtang VI or so, so reducing stability cost really doesn’t fit the times. (Referring to a slightly more restricted period, Rayfield says “The story of western Georgia between the death of King Alexandre [i.e. 1660] and the accession of King Solomon I [i.e. 1752] is a confusing vortex of internecine war, depositions and restorations, abduction, adultery, mutilation, murder and treachery. The only consolation for the student of Imeretian-Gurian-Mingrelian history is that it was even more terrible to endure in reality than to read about in retrospect.”) Plus to be honest -10% stability cost modifier is pretty boring and limited.


Instead I would like to suggest some alternatives that seem much more suitable. The first of these is an idea for reduced war exhaustion. Again, this is not an original idea on these forums http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...erhaul-suggestion.979905/page-3#post-22755127). One of the key threads of Georgian history in this period is that they just kept fighting and resisting (particularly the Muslim empires – not Russia quite so much), even though they usually lost in the end. King Teimuraz I spent 50 years resisting the Persians in the first half of the 1600s, losing and regaining his throne repeatedly in the process. Later, the 300 Aragvians would become famous for their last stand (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Hundred_Aragvians). When Georgians weren’t fighting the empires that had vassalised them they were fighting one another. The principalities of Western Georgia in particular fought each other over and over again in this period.


Resistance to Foreign Domination

“In spite of our small size compared to the mighty empires around us, we defend our land against all-comers. Our tenacity in the face of adversity has kept the idea of Georgia alive even through our darkest hours as a nation.”

-0.02 monthly war exhaustion

(If anyone can come up with a better name for this idea I’m all ears. I would call it Legacy of the 300 Aragvians but since they come up at the end of the period rather than the beginning it would seem a bit odd.)


The second is something relating to Georgia’s Orthodox faith. Georgia was a very early adopter of Christianity (they tend to say the second after Armenia but I understand there’s a bit of dispute about that) and Orthodoxy has remained a central part of Georgian identity since the 300s. Indeed, in the tenth century, Giorgi Merchule defined Georgia as anywhere where Mass was said in Georgian. Also, unlike say the Russians, who had a variety of sects split off from the main church, as far as I know this never really happened in Georgia. Moreover, their Orthodoxy was crucial to their foreign policy in this period. They kept trying to draw closer to Russia because Russia, unlike the Ottomans and the Persians, was an Orthodox power. Even when some of the rulers of Kakheti, Kartli and Imereti converted to Islam, this was always under strong pressure from the imperial power and usually just for show. Samtskhe was a bit of an exception admittedly, and became rather Muslim under the Ottomans.

So my suggestion for this would be:

St Nino’s Cross

“In the 4th century, St Nino cured Queen Nana of Iberia of a mortal illness. As a result, her husband, King Mirian, made Christianity our state religion. Since that time, we Georgians have tightly held on to our Christian faith. As one of the first Christian nations, it is crucial for us to maintain our faith against all others. May we one day once again have the strength to aid our brethren in Jerusalem!”

Tolerance of the True Faith +2

OR

Something that increases the new Patriarch Authority from Third Rome.

(Note: once again, this is not an original idea: (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...e-of-new-effects.1031640/page-2#post-23034910))

Note: St Nino was the one who converted Georgia to Christianity. Her cross, made of vine branches, is a symbol of Georgian Christianity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grapevine_cross). The Georgians set up a monastery in Jerusalem long before 1444 but had increasingly little power to protect their clergy and so on, hence the last line.

I would suggest making this an early idea, possibly even a tradition, but certainly one of the first 2 ideas.


There are four other elements of Georgian history that I think would be particularly appropriate for National Ideas, but I haven’t totally fleshed them out yet. Those are the history as being possibly the birthplace of wine; Vakhtang VI’s code the dasturlamali (a late idea which would reduce unrest in some way) and relatedly the institution of serfdom, or patronqmoba, which was extremely persistent and created a society of nobles and peasants; and something relating to fort maintenance (there are castles all over Georgia, and in particular Svaneti deserves a mention as a place where every single family had their own defensive tower https://www.georgianjournal.ge/pictures/image2/5498601486b096ab6031b59ef9f73764.jpg.) As for which ideas would be eliminated, I know many people find Hostile Core Creation Cost boring, although I understand the gameplay reasons for why that might be necessary. Controversially, since it seems like a bit of a nerf, I’d be tempted to get rid of one of the two diplomatic ideas. Georgia absolutely did send out emissaries throughout the period, but they were notably unsuccessful in gaining support from larger powers, whether they be the Pope, France, or indeed Russia under Peter the Great, who promised support and didn’t show up in 1722. The one exception is the Traktat they signed with Russia under Catherine the Great, which the Russians promptly broke and led to them being annexed. I’m also not particularly keen on the Ambition being reduced infantry cost but I don’t have a strong idea of what to replace it with.

There are obviously lots of more fundamental changes that could be made to Georgia too (a complicated event chain to simulate its breakup in the late 1400s, the introduction of Ossetian and Abkhaz cultures to the game, and so on) but this is long enough already. Thank you if you’ve read to the end. I don’t speak Georgian sadly (although I do speak some Russian) so I’m sure I’ve made plenty of mistakes - please pick me up on them.
I'd like to credit the participants on these threads: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/rome-by-the-euxine.980305/ https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ion-comprehensive-overhaul-suggestion.979905/ as being particularly helpful.

 

[Machabeli]

Tags for Kartli and Kakheti are very important, forming Georgia as Georgia is kind of dubious in the first place, i don't know why the Devs decided to have eastern Georgia just as plain Georgia. and i'd say having more provinces for Georgia would be really nice and potentially beneficial to future Odishi and guria tags. also the 'Treaty of iberians' could easily be an event.(i could imagine it would be pretty helpful to have all the Georgian tags guaranteeing each other.)

 

[Delurker]

Well I'm working on modding some events for Georgia ATM, so watch this space.

Also, small issue but Kakheti's capital is given as Telavi, which as we discussed further up the thread, isn't the best choice - it should be Gremi really.

 

[Machabeli]

Alright that's good to know.

unfortunately provinces in Eu4 only have single cities, and that to me is a bit of a problem.for example Telavi actually became the capital of Kakheti later on, so within the eu4's games province mechanics there is no way to represent the transfer of a capital in a single province.

 

[Reavici]

Spoiler: separation of Catholicate of Abkhazia (1470-1814)

Together with the growth of the tendency for the disintegration of Georgia,
the role of the Cathalicos of Western Georgia gradually increased.
This situation was used with the purpose of strengthening of the political positions by the King of Imereti - Bagrat II (1455-1478) and possessor of Odishi Shamadavle
Dadiani (1470-1474). They took an opportunity from the visit of Patriarch of Jerusalem
and Antiochia - Michael to West Georgia, having arrived for collecting the donation. He
persuaded by the kings to bliss the "bishop of Tsaish-Bedia - Joachim" on the throne
of Patriarch of Abkhazia. It happened between 1470-1474. The " Court Directions or
Commandements ", was hastily compiled on behalf of the Patriarch of Jerusalem and
Antiochia, in which was "grounded" the split from the jurisdiction of the Cathalicos-
Partiarch of all Georgia, by the west Georgian church and was justified the appointment
of Joachim - the independent Cathalicos of Abkhazia, i. e. west Georgia.

In the 16th century, as well as in the old times, the churches and monasteries on the territory of modern Abkhazia were the most important centers of the Georgian education and culture, where worked the representatives of all the parts of the country. It is remarkable, that Pitsunda remained the religious centre of West Georgia.

Spoiler: Independence of Mingrelia-Odishi (1557–1867)

Imereti king and Samegrelo principal making a deal

In 1548 King of Imereti Bagrat fraudulently captured Levan I Dadiani and locked him
in the belfry of the Gelati Monastery. In 1550 Dadiani escaped and returned to Odishi.

After this he declared himself the independent possessing Duke and accepted the title
of "Sovereign Dadiani". This title was left to Levan I Dadiani by the Turkish Sultan in
1557 (As it was known according to the Ammasian agreement between Iran and Turkey
from May 29 of 1555, west Georgia was given to Turkey and East Georgia to Iran).

Spoiler: Genoese trade posts in Odishi

In 1314 with the purpose of
managing the Black Sea trading stations the authorities of the town-state created a special
department being called "Officium Gazaria" in 1341.

According to the Italian historical tradition , the Genoeses established the Sukhumi trading station by the agreement of the local authorities (Odishi).

The right of opening the trading station was obtained by the Genoeses in 1354. The political success of Genoa on the international arena played an important part in reaching the agreement. In the sea battle of 1354 the Genoeses almost completely destroyed the fleet of their permanent rival - Venetia. The rulers of Georgia in such conditions considered "righteous" to meet the regular appeal of the Genoeses and allowed to establish the trading station in Sukhumi.

In 1475 the Ottomans captured Kaffa and all the colonies of the Genoans in the Crimea.
The Genoans must have lost the self-governance in Tskhumi as well. Thus, The Genoese
trading stations in the town Tskhumi (Sebastopolis) of the Odishi principality had been functioning for 121 years.

Sokhumi
The sums being gathered in the trading stations of Sevastopolis for the benefit of Genoa
for the separate years, about which we have the information give an impression on
the trade circulation of this trading station. In 1373 were gathered 12 000 soms or
2 628 kilograms of silver. In the XVth century the volume of the trade circulation of the
trading station of Sebastopolis doubled and there were the years when the circulation even
tripled.
In the 16th century Tskhomi (Sukhumi) was within Odishi and was considered the most
significant town of the east Black Sea Coast. In the middle of the 16 th century from that
town to Crimea were sent a great number of the silk cocoons and packed in the special
sacs rice being cultivated in Georgia

Spoiler: Catholic missionaries

On May the 4 th of 1626 the Holly Congregation de Propaganda Fide - the department of Vatican coordinating the missionary activities, enacted a
special decree to establish in Georgia the mission of the Theatines order.
On the 16th of June of the same year was named the delegation leaving for Georgia. To prefect Don Pietro Avitabile were handed the recommendation letters of Pope Urban the VIII to the following persons: Catholicos of Georgia and Metropolitan, kings of Kakheti and Imereti, possessors of Odishi and Guria.

In the XVIIth century the missionary activities in Odishi were performed by the representatives of the Order of Theatines: Arcangelo Lamberti, Christophoro Castelli, Giuzeppe Giudice, Joseph - Marie Zampi, Gaetano Turco, Gaetano Rasponi and others.

Spoiler: Kelasuri Wall (1628-1653) and invasion of NW Caucasian tribes

A. Lamberti wrote about this: Megrelia is protected by the nature from the mountain side and if the nature was made a mistaken on the other side of the mountain, then it was improved with the help and mastership of the possessor.

Almost the similar inscription has the map made by Castelli: "The wall having the 60 miles, being constructed to withstand the raids of the Abazgians". The arrangements being carried out by Levan II Dadiani halted for some time the invasion of the highlanders into the territory of Odishi.

During Chardin's visit in Odishi (1672) the border of the principality oficially passed on the river Kelasuri, but the Kelasuri wall itself did not function any more.

In 1681 the Abkhazians occupied the north-west part of Odishi from the river Kelasuri
to the river Galidzga. Vakhushti Bagrationi wrote about it: "The Abkhazians brought a lot of trouble to Odishi, as they used to come in boats and on land and capture the Odishians, occupied the territory to Egrisi and settled there and in Dranda and Mokvi there were no bishops any more".

On the deserted territory settled the Abkhazians (Apsua) communities. They ethnically assimilated the whole territory between the rivers Kelasuri and Galidzga, but they don't feel themselves at home on the teritory between the rivers of Galidzga and Inguri, where the Georgian population comprised the majority.

Theatin missionary - Jozeph - Marie Zampi visiting Odishi from the end of the 40s of
the 17th century wrote at the start of the 70s: " Megrelia does not resemble real Megrelia any more, as the wars impoverished, destroyed and devastated it... Nobody has the cattle and everyone lacks the food... Now not a single person can feel himself safe, as they are under the threat of invasion of the Abkhazians.
The same Zampi after his return to Rome in 1679 remarked; "Our missionary activities can gradually, day by day become more fruitful if not the enemies of (Megrelian) possessor and bordering with Megrelia peoples, such as the Alans, Circassians, Jiks, Abkhazians and others permanently devastating this country and bothering the population and priests"

During the invasion of the Abkhazian and North Caucasian tribes in Megrelia, the
churches and monasteries were ruined and destroyed together with the villages. As the Italian missionaries witness, are the beginning of the 80-ies of the 18th century by Kvapu Sharvashidze's order more than 100 Orthodox clergymen were killed. The real reason of the mass massacre and banishment of the clergy from the captured territories was their loyalty and devotedness to Odishi

Spoiler: map

Spoiler: Flag of Mingrelia

Diogo Homem (circa 1559)

ruling Dynasty: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Dadiani

Spoiler: Ottoman slave trade mechanic

In 1475, the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire conquered Kaffa. In 1475, the Crimean Khan Mengli Giray mentioned in a letter sent to MehmedGiray that he would be an enemy to any enemy of the Sultan, and a friend to his friend. A difficult period began for foreigners residing in Kaffa. Valachians, Polish, Russians, Georgians, and Circassians were the first to learn their fate: they were to be deprived of their property and sold as slaves or imprisoned
slave trade mechanic for Black sea region

Spoiler: Ottoman slave trade mechanic

requirements:
1) Ottoman dominance in Crimean trade node
2) directly controling any coastal region either having vassal tag located in the X region
eg. Ottomans must own Abkhazia to gain bonuses from Caucasus region.
-"a Turkish organized slave-trade flourished from various Mingrelian ports."
-In 1759, he was among signatories of a convention of the leading ecclesiastical and lay dignitaries of western Georgia, swearing to resist Ottoman demands for resumption of slave trade banned by Solomon I.
Ottoman Empire bonuses: additional manpower
maybe around 400 manpoer each month?
"Ottomans imported between 16.000 and 18.000 such slaves every year."
"Sixteenth- and 17th-century customs statistics suggest that Istanbul's additional slave import from the black sea may have totaled around 2.5 million from 1450 to 1700."
Caucasian countries get effect during (Disaster):
-1 upkeep for mil monarch power
extra ducats each month

I will add more information about Ottoman slave trade later

Spoiler: new trade route through Georgia?

Spoiler: new trade route through Georgia?

Trade routes led from the Caspian Sea West Coast and Iran to Tbilisi, then to Akhaltsikhe or Kutaisi. From 1612, when the border between Turkey and Persia was closed, the need for finding a safe trade route was put on the agenda again. In 1621, the Dominican leader Paolo Maria Cittadini da Faenza, who was in Georgia in 1616, informs us that three routes led to Georgia from Persia.
“The second road leads to Persia, Gilan, from Gilan to Shirvan, from Shirvan to Shemakh, from Shemakh to Demirkap.
There is a peaceful route from here to Georgia; the third – from Tabriz to Yerevan, then to Tbilisi via Ganja, from Tbilisi to Zagem;
the fourth from Poland to Kiev, from Kiev to the Black sea, from there you enter Megrelia or Guria by Cossack vessel by the Black Sea”

Levan II developed trade with the European countries together with him. The route would pass through Georgia, including Odishi. Giuseppe Judicce informs us, that "Prince Dadiani always wanted to bring merchants and settle them in his principality. He wanted to attract merchants and merchandise from distant states very much …” “If it would be possible to bring some rich Venetian merchants from Constantinople, he would oblige them to sell silk apart from other goods, entirely from his principality and partially from Persia … If somebody would start trade with silk by the Black Sea, the merchants would deliver silk for them from Persia and Armenia to Odishi more than a half price cheaper than it would cost to take to Halab.

 

[Machabeli]

Nice information.

Diogo Homem (circa 1559)

I don't really see Mingrelia's flag on that map. though i'd prefer this flag instead https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/34/Odishiflag.jpg it would be kinda unfair to give a cross flag to Odishi while Georgia doesn't have it.

 

[AirikrStrife]

The "right way" to represent Georgia (IMO) in the second half of the 1400's, (starting in 1446 to be exact but foundation being laid in 1442) is to have Georgiaa plagued by dynastic civil war. I think it's perfect we see succesion wars and personal unions form in the crumbling realm of the old georgian kingdom.

Look at it like this de jure, Georgia was still a united kingdom with two c-monarch in specific parts of the country and a strong near independent nobility in parts of the country (and independent mountain clans etc). Now Immereti or Samtshke wouldn't get a seat in the UN but we're not discussing westphalian nation states but feudal kingdoms. A good example is the uchy of Burgundy which is part of france, it is a part of the kingdom of france ruled by a cadet branch of the french royal house. Even the main goal of the Burgundian in their last decades was forming their own kingdom independent of france. So having Georgia balkanized better represents the political progress and reality of the de jure united Georgian kingdom in 1444 than having it start as one tag. Balkanizing it through events and decision will essentially only make the country unplayable.

Though it definitly would have been better to include Kakheti, and looking at how many revolter tags they added in the Persia region I realize it wouldn't be to much to ask for for the remaining georgian principalities and a seperate Kakheti (I thought they didn't include that because they wanted to be conservative in adding new tags)

 

[Machabeli]

here you go

and well Pigeon flag can be its alternate flag too

Isn't that Genoa's flag though?

 

[Reavici]

Spoiler: Proposed new areas

importance scale: high-average-less
Areas:
Circassia:
Zykhia Jicks and Circassians are mentioned seaprately in medieval chronicles, also it used to be part of Abkhazian principality and Kingdom of Georgia.
Adyghe (Shapsygia) additional coastal region populated by Shapsugs sub-group of Circassians. Province can represent Sujuk-kale aka Novorosisk port.
Circassia
Abazia-(Alania). additional mountainous province populated by Jick and Abkhazia-related tribes of Abaza. it can improve logistics abilities and defensivness for Circassia. Circassia is underestimate compared to other European tags tbh,
1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Circassian_War length of war 1763–1864

Spoiler: Krasnodar Krai

Terek:
Kabardia
Balkaria-(Alania) Tatar culture, logistics
Ossetia
Durdzukia home of Chechen-Vainakh (Not Avar neither Dag) community

Shirvan-Albania:
Ganja
Karabakh
both Ganja and Karabakh are naturaly part of Caucasian Albania. they were known as Arran back then.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arran_(Caucasus)
it's msitake to combine Arran with Armenia area.

Armenia:
Kars important Armenian province, it used to be capital of Armenian Kingdom of Ani.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kars

South Georgia:
Adjara

Pontus; or Karadeniz area
Djanik
Trebizond fell to Ottoman rule in 1461
Lazia or Lazistan fell to Ottoman rule in 1547

 

[Reavici]

Reviewing Samtskhe ideas

Samtskhe was definetely mix of cultures and religions.
Atabegi used to be military title in Kingdom of Georgia. they were army commanders and Mentor or Guardians of heirs. The title was granted first to the Zakarid-Mxargrzeli and then to house of Jaqeli.

Samtskhe, especially Klarjeti region is the cradle of Christianity in Georgia. Saint Nino entered Mtskheta, the old Capital of Georgia, from Samtskhe and baptized Georgians in the 330s.
Klarjeti was often called "Georgian Sinai" because of its importance for Georgian Christianity and the nation's development as a whole. There are located more churches and monasteries than in rest Georgia
http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20170710-turkeys-forgotten-georgian-kingdom?ocid=fbtvl

Amyways National ideas of Samtskhe are not that bad, we need just correct descriptions a bit

 

[Machabeli]

Reviewing Samtskhe ideas

Samtskhe was definetely mix of cultures and religions.
Atabegi used to be military title in Kingdom of Georgia. they were army commanders and Mentor or Guardians of heirs. The title was granted first to the Zakarid-Mxargrzeli and then to house of Jaqeli.

Samtskhe, especially Klarjeti region is the cradle of Christianity in Georgia. Saint Nino entered Mtskheta, the old Capital of Georgia, from Samtskhe and baptized Georgians in the 330s.
Klarjeti was often called "Georgian Sinai" because of its importance for Georgian Christianity and the nation's development as a whole. There are located more churches and monasteries than in rest Georgia
http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20170710-turkeys-forgotten-georgian-kingdom?ocid=fbtvl

Amyways National ideas of Samtskhe are not that bad, we need just correct descriptions a bit

Can you upload all of Samtskhe's ideas?

 

[JonSnow]

I started playing Cradle of Civilization as a Georgia. And for whatever reason Georgia is Khanate and title is no more King but Atabeg. I think they made a mistake, Atabegs were rulers of Samtskhe. Kings of Georgia or Imereti, or Kartli, or Kakheti were never called Atabeg.

 

[Reavici]

JonSnow
I didn't noticed it. damn. I hope devs will fix it in next patch.
Machabeli

trade route through Persia to Crimea is really needed :v

Spoiler: New trade route

1) through Tbilisi-Odishi
or
2) through Trebizond

I will try to back my suggestions by historical events
1) The destruction of Baghdad by Hulagu Khan in 1258 diverted the western terminus of the Silk Road north to the Black Sea, and due to its link with their local capital at Tabriz, Trebizond accumulated tremendous wealth under the suzerainty of the Mongols.
2) After taking Constantinople (1453), the Turks controlled the straits of Dardanelles and the Bosporus, which damaged the trade for Venice and Genoa. As a result in the 1470s the majority of diplomats travelled to Persia via Georgia.
3) The significance of Georgia particularly increased after the collapse of Trebizond (1461), which connected Europe to Persia.

 

[Reavici]

Spoiler: Disintegration of Georgia

Giorgi VIII was the last king of the united Georgia. The political split of the country was speeded up by the opposition in the House of eristavs of Samtskhe-Saatabago. The internecine war in Georgia seemed unavoidable, when the ambassador of the Pope of Rome - Ludovic from Bologna came to Georgia. He offered the Georgians to participate in the anti-Ottoman coalition. The struggle with the Ottomans with the help of the united forces of the Christian countries appeared so tempting for Georgia, that thanks to the ambassador of Pope the temporary truce was concluded between the king of Georgia and Atabag of Samtskhe.

The European mission of the Georgian and Oriental ambassadors was not successful. The West Europe did not seem ready for the united actions against the Ottomans. After the failure of the Anti-Ottoman coalition in Georgia the internecine war broke out with the new force. The initiator was again Kvarkvare II Jakeli. In 1462 he called against the king of Georgia the leader of the union of Ak Koiunlu (White Rams) - Uzun Khasan, who invaded Kartli. His invasion was used by the king's governor of the west Georgia - Bagrat. He promised the independence to the eristavs and located his garrisons in that area. In 1463 Bagrat defeated Giorgi VIII at Chikhori not far from Kutaisi. "Dadiani, Gurieli, Abkhazians and Svans came to the conqueror and expressing the wish of all the Imerians blessed him to be King. He fulfilled the promise given to those possessors and they were liberated, but the duty to give the army and be the vassals of the king. From that time Imereti turned into one kingdom and four Duchies or satavado, as Dadiani was allotted Odishi, Gurieli - Guria, Sharvashidze - Abkhazia and Jiketi, Gelovani - Svaneti; and Bagrat was Their King".

Bagrat was the king of only west Georgia for a short period. In 1466 he crossed the borders of East Georgia (Inner Kartli) and proclaimed himself King of all Georgia. He entered the History under the name of Bagrat VI. In fact, he possessed only West Georgia and Inner Kartli. Giorgi VIII was consolidated in Kakheti and formed an independent Kakhetian Kingdom. In the Inferior Kartli (Tbilisi) was consolidated the grandson of Alexander the Great Konstantine II (the son Dimitri), recognizing as a sovereign of Bagrat VI. Samtskhe-Saatabago
became an independent principality.

In 1477 Vamekh II Dadiani (1474-1482) opposed Bagrat VI. He "assembled the Abkhazians and Gurians and began the raids, devastation and capturing of Imereti". The reaction of the king of Georgia was immediate. Bagrat VI attacked Odishi with the great army, defeated and subdued Vamekh II Dadiani. The king of Kartli and west Georgia - Bagrat VI died in 1478. Konstantine II (1479-1505) ascended the throne of Kartli. The son of Bagrat VI - Alexander tried to ascend the throne in west Georgia. For coronation he summoned "Dadiani, Gurieli, Sharvashidze and Gelovani", but headed with Vamekh II Dadiani refused to support him and invited Konstantine II to West Georgia. Konstantine with the help of the eristavs of western Georgia took Kutaisi and for a short time restored the integrity of Kartli with western Georgia. The allies were planning to unite the whole Georgia and in the first place tried to join Samtskhe-Saatabago. Vamekh II Dadiani with the army of west Georgia helped Konstantine II in 1481 in the battle with atabag and after this the King subordinated Samtskhe. Konstantine II became the King of All Georgia. He "subdued Imers, Odishians and Abkhazians; Atabag served him and the Kakhetians were in his subordination.

in 1483 Konstantine II was defeated at Aradeti in the battle with Atabag. The son of Bagrat - Alexander took advantage of it and captured Kutaisi and was crowned King. Then, the new possessor of Odishi - Liparit II Dadiani (1482-1512) invited Konstantine II to West Georgia for the second time. In 1487 Konstantine came to west Georgia again with the army and occupied Kutaisi and other significant fortresses with the help of Liparit II Dadiani and other great feudals of West Georgia. But he failed to fully annex west Georgia. In 1488 the ruler of Iran-Jakub Han invaded East Georgia and the king of Kartli went to fight with him. Alexander-the son of Bagrat VI again took advantage of it and captured Kutaisi and all fortresses of Imereti again and after that" reconciled with Dadiani and Gurieli. By this act, he pacified Imereti and firmly subdued the Abkhazians and Svans".

In 1490 Konstantine asked a specially assembled royal court (Darbazi) for an advice concerning restoration of the integral kingdom. The royal court advised Konstantine II to postpone this struggle till the better times. After this the king of Kartli had to temporarily reconcile with the kings of Kakheti and Imereti and also Atabag of Samtskhe having thus formed the factual split of Georgia.

Spoiler: Disintegration event

 

[Machabeli]

Yes but could you show it in detail?

 

[Delurker]

So I've put together a few events for Georgia. They're mostly the simple ones to program, because I'm very much a beginner in this area. I haven't done any event chains yet, and I only have one event from before 1600, so apologies for that. If you'd like to try them out, first cut your existing "flavor_events_I_english.yml" out of your localisation folder (Europa Universalis IV/common/localisation) and store it somewhere safe. Do the same with "00_event_modifiers.txt" in Europa Universalis IV/common/event_modifiers. Then paste in the files I have attached to this post into those folders and also paste flavorGEO.txt into Europa Universalis IV/events.

People featured:
Giorgi Saakadze
Sulkhan-Saba Orbeliani
Sayat-Nova
Anton I
Besiki

Events featured:
The Karabadini
Growth of Armenian Diaspora
Arrival of Capuchin Monks (note: I couldn't get the relations with the Papal State to improve in this event so if anyone would like to fix that be my guest.)
Levan II Dadiani's revolt
Develop the Tbilisi Baths
The Dasturlamali
Re-endow the Gelati Academy

I've written these as a springboard for everyone, including the devs, so feel free to improve and expand on them how you see fit. I hope you like them!

 

[Reavici]

Amazing job Delurker

I would also add
* desintegration of Georgia event.
I have already posted about this above.
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketevan_the_Martyr - (if Kakhet is occupied by Persia)
would increase prestige or patriarch authority? not really sure. anyways that was important event during XVI century
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakhtrioni_uprising - (if Kakhet is occupied by Persia)
would trigger huge rebellion if Persia tries to culturally convert Kakheti
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_I_of_Imereti - (if Ottoman tag exists)
prohibition of Ottoman slave trade in Georgia. it would prolly end "slave trade disaster" and increase national manpower modifier? and reduce relations with Ottomans by -100.
requirements:
-Stability +1 (?)
-nobility doesn't holds any holdings.
In 1752, the aristocratic opposition staged a coup, but Solomon quickly regained the crown and began a program of reforms aimed at stabilizing the kingdom torn apart by chronic civil wars.
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Georgievsk
would turn on "Historical friend modifier for Russia", so Russia could easly vassalize Georgia.

* and this too
The “Treaty on the Unity of the Iberians (Iverians)”, signed by the kings and princes of Kartli and Kakheti, Samegrelo, Imereti and Guria in 1790; “Since all the Iverians, inhabiting the kingdom of Kartli, Kakheti, Imereti, Odishi and Guria share one religion, are the children born from one Catholic Church and having one language, they also have great love as kinsmen and relatives by blood. Therefore we, the kings and princes of the above-mentioned lands of Iveria promise in the name of All-Mighty God to keep the inviolable agreement of our unity, which will be made clear in the following propositions…”
Treaty promised all-Georgian unity and mutual assistance in case of external threats. King Heraclius II of Georgia was recognized as the "father" of all Georgia that promised the western Georgian polities to help in case of need.

I hope King heraclius has really high military and diplomatic stats
---------
Russia's events
I hope it's possible to do similar event as "Byzantine refugee" for Russia. trigger: Georgia is annexed either by Persia or Ottomans, it would trigger
"Georgian colonies in Moscow" event for Russian Empire.
"The Georgian settlement in Moscow produced many an eminent political, public and military man."
-Georgian (Gruzinskiy) Hussars.
list of prominent Georgian generals in Russian army:
(Pyotr Bagration, Roman Bagration, Ivane Bagration, Ivane Amilakhvari, Alexander Imeretinsky, Ivane Kazbegi, Kote Abkhazi, Pavel Tsitsianov, Lev Mikhailovich Yashvil)

 

[Delurker]

Amazing job Delurker

I would also add
* desintegration of Georgia event.
I have already posted about this above.
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketevan_the_Martyr - (if Kakhet is occupied by Persia)
would increase prestige or patriarch authority? not really sure. anyways that was important event during XVI century
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakhtrioni_uprising - (if Kakhet is occupied by Persia)
would trigger huge rebellion if Persia tries to culturally convert Kakheti
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_I_of_Imereti - (if Ottoman tag exists)
prohibition of Ottoman slave trade in Georgia. it would prolly end "slave trade disaster" and increase national manpower modifier? and reduce relations with Ottomans by -100.
requirements:
-Stability +1 (?)
-nobility doesn't holds any holdings.
In 1752, the aristocratic opposition staged a coup, but Solomon quickly regained the crown and began a program of reforms aimed at stabilizing the kingdom torn apart by chronic civil wars.
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Georgievsk
would turn on "Historical friend modifier for Russia", so Russia could easly vassalize Georgia.

* and this too
The “Treaty on the Unity of the Iberians (Iverians)”, signed by the kings and princes of Kartli and Kakheti, Samegrelo, Imereti and Guria in 1790; “Since all the Iverians, inhabiting the kingdom of Kartli, Kakheti, Imereti, Odishi and Guria share one religion, are the children born from one Catholic Church and having one language, they also have great love as kinsmen and relatives by blood. Therefore we, the kings and princes of the above-mentioned lands of Iveria promise in the name of All-Mighty God to keep the inviolable agreement of our unity, which will be made clear in the following propositions…”
Treaty promised all-Georgian unity and mutual assistance in case of external threats. King Heraclius II of Georgia was recognized as the "father" of all Georgia that promised the western Georgian polities to help in case of need.

I hope King heraclius has really high military and diplomatic stats
---------
Russia's events
I hope it's possible to do similar event as "Byzantine refugee" for Russia. trigger: Georgia is annexed either by Persia or Ottomans, it would trigger
"Georgian colonies in Moscow" event for Russian Empire.
"The Georgian settlement in Moscow produced many an eminent political, public and military man."
-Georgian (Gruzinskiy) Hussars.
list of prominent Georgian generals in Russian army:
(Pyotr Bagration, Roman Bagration, Ivane Bagration, Ivane Amilakhvari, Alexander Imeretinsky, Ivane Kazbegi, Kote Abkhazi, Pavel Tsitsianov, Lev Mikhailovich Yashvil)

Thanks!
I've already written an event for the Martyrdom of Queen Ketevan and intend to work out how to program it at some point. My ultimate goal is to create a whole Breakup of Georgia disaster but 1) I haven't developed the skills to do that yet and 2) it'd be a lot of work because I'd have to create a Kartli tag and a Kakheti tag as well as programming the disaster in order to make it work properly. (If any devs are reading this could you please make a Kingdom of Kartli tag and a Kingdom of Kakheti tag? Thanks.)
Heraklius II (I'd prefer Erekle, but whatever) has high stats in the Georgia history file for what it's worth (he's 5/4/4).
Your other event ideas are cool and I'll take note of them.

 

[Machabeli]

Heraklius II (I'd prefer Erekle, but whatever) has high stats in the Georgia history file for what it's worth (he's 5/4/4).

Is he a 3 star general as well? like skandeberg for example.

 

[Delurker]

Is he a 3 star general as well? like skandeberg for example.

He doesn't get any general stats at all in the history file so they'd be random.

 

[durbal]

I'm wondering why the devs made the 1444 Georgian ruler and heir such worthless morons while surrounding states that completely collapsed and failed under their 1444 rulers (like Qara Qoyunlu) have like 3/4/5 stats and such when the collapse of QQ was precipitated by a military defeat under their starting ruler.

Just...weird.