Georgia Changes for Flavour and Accuracy

[Delurker]

I’d like to make some suggestions for how to improve Georgia in the game.


First I’d like to suggest some dynamic province names:

Spoiler

12 Sjælland - Zelandia


41 Koenigsberg – Kenigsbergi


50 Berlin – Berlini


85 Koeln - K'elni


97 Holland - Holandia


101 Genoa - Genua


102 Nice – Nitsa


110 Trent - Trento


112 Venezia – Venetsia


113 Ferrara - Ferara


115 Pisa - Piza


116 Firenze -Florentsia


118 Roma – Romi


121 Napoli – Neapoli


134 Wien - Vena


144 Epirus – Epiri?


146 Athens – Ateni


147 Thessaly – Tesalia?


148 Macedonia - Mak'edonia


149 Edirne – Adrianopoli


150 Tarnovo – Tirnovo?


151 Constantinople - (Istanbul = Stanbuli; Constantinople = K'onst'ant'inop'oli)


153 Pest – Peshti?


163 Crete - Kreta


183 Paris – P’arizi


236 London - Londoni


257 Warszawa – Varshava


262 Krakow - Krakovi


280 Kiev - Kievi


284 Crimea – Qirimi


286 Azov – Azovi (I think)


287 Kuban – Jiketi


(N.B. Kuban should have alternative name if Circassia takes it - Pshyze)


295 Moskva – Mosk’ovi


310 Novgorod – (Didi) Novgorodi – “Didi” means “The Great”, like “Velikiy Novgorod” in Russian


317 Hüdavendigar – Bursa (or Brusa)


319 Mentese – Menteshe?


320 Rhodes – Rodosi


321 Cyprus - K'vip'rosi


327 Adana - Adana


328 Sinop – Sinopi


329 Sivas - several options – Sebastia probably best


330 Trebizond - T'rap'izoni


331 Erzurum - Karnu-Kalaki is probably the best choice


365 Sinai - Sinai


379 Jerusalem – Ierusalimi


382 Damascus - Damask'i


410 Baghdad - Baghdadi


411 Mosul – Mosuli

Edit to add: 416 Tabriz - Tavrizi

418 Diyarbakir - Diarbakiri


419 Yerevan – Erivani/Erebuni


421 Shirvan = Shirvani


424 Ardabil - Ardebili


428 Teheran - Teirani


429 Isfahan – Ispaani


442 Bukhara - Bukhara


445 Merv - Mervi


454 Samarkand - Samarqandi


462 Mingrelia – Samegrelo - Mingrelia is the Russian name, not the Georgian one. EDIT: on further reading actually Odishi is an even better choice for the name of the province than Samegrelo, which was only really used in the 19th century. Definitely not Mingrelia though.


463 Circassia – Cherkezeti


464 Astrakhan - Ast'rakhani


475 Bashkortostan - Bashk'ireti


522 Delhi – Deli


1765 Sofia – Sofia


1773 Achaea - Akaia


1816 Beijing - P'ek'ini


1855 Sidon - Sidoni


2205 Nakhchivan – Nakhichevani


2208 Terek – Tergi


2218 Shiraz - Shirazi


2306 Mush - Mushi


2307 Van – Vani


2313 Antioch - Ant'iokia


2331 Jeddah – Jida


2348 Chios - Kiosi

Other changes:

My major source for all this is Edge of Empires: a History of Georgia by Donald Rayfield, which as far as I can tell is the most comprehensive study available in English. All the events apart from the baths one are featured in that text. Many of these ideas have been suggested before on these forums but I wanted to collate and polish them a bit, as well as back them up a bit more with sources so they seem more credible to those who don’t know this region very well.

The Darial Pass

The South Caucasus should have a break in the middle for the Darial Pass. It should link Kartli to Alania. The Darial Pass was very important in the history of the region. In the period roughly 1000-1400 the fact that the pass was controlled by Georgians or their allies (the Ossetians) was crucial in stopping Georgia being invaded by the steppe peoples to the North. Later, when Russia finally decisively invaded Georgia at the end of the 1700s, they did so through the Darial Pass. The current situation is ahistorical and encourages powers in the Northern Caucasus to attack via Abkhazia, which was famously difficult and swampy terrain in real life and so was only subdued by the Russian Empire later.

Darbazi

Very minor, but if possible it would be nice to change the “Call Diet” action in the estates tabs to “Call Darbazi”, since that was the name of the roughly equivalent Georgian institution (it was basically the King’s council.) For added flavour, it could increase the influence of the clergy as well as the nobility, as the key religious figures were also invited to darbazis.

Noble influence

A small change that I don’t know how easy it would be to modify, but the common thread for Georgia in this period is a strong and disloyal nobility. It would be good to have higher noble influence as a result, to make it harder to manage that estate. I think there’s a reasonable case for making Georgia a Feudal Monarchy rather than a Despotic Monarchy.

Events:

Currently, Georgia has no events of its own at all. I am aware that it's a bit difficult to create events for Georgia because it spent most of the period hopelessly split, with the West under the thumb of the Ottomans and the East the Persians. For this reason I've gone for cultural achievements because 1) they're not railroady and 2) they are not dependent on the overall geopolitical situation to the same extent. Here are my suggestions. I'm flexible on the effects they have - the aim is to provide flavour for a tag that has no flavour of its own beyond being Orthodox at the moment, not to turn Georgia into some kind of superpower.

Spoiler

Zaza Panaskerteli-Tsitsishvili’s Karabadini


Conditions:


Year = 1486 or so


http://www.medgeo.net/2009/12/25/სამკურნალო-წიგნი-კარაბად/ (kinda has picture – but could just use generic manuscript pic)


(In 1486) Eristavi Zaza Panaskerteli-Tsitsishvili wrote and compiled an important collection of Georgian medical knowledge. Drawing on Galenic and Sumerian ideas, as well as local remedies, the two volumes of the Karabadini describe methods of identifying diseases and how to examine patients. The Karabadini examines both physical and mental illnesses. Mental illnesses are said to be a product of physical issues in the brain, and therefore they require medication, not magic rituals. In Panaskerteli-Tsitsishvili’s opinion, it is necessary to heal the patient using accurate knowledge based on rational methods of treatment.


Our people shall benefit greatly from this work!


Effects:


+10% population growth (same as Medical Evolution event) for 500 days or whatever (maybe lower but for longer?)


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Sayat-Nova

Sayat-Nova was a renowned ashugh (troubadour) singer in the 18th century. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayat-Nova). He was ethnically Armenian but came from Tbilisi and King Erekle II of Georgia patronised him.


The event should fire from 1740 to 1765


"A wandering ashugh who calls himself Sayat-Nova has come to our court singing songs of love and merriment in all the languages of the South Caucasus. Shall we patronise him?"


YES > pay x money, gain prestige


NO > lose prestige


Note: Since Sayat-Nova was ethnically Armenian, it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that if an Armenian state had existed at the time he would have tried to gain patronage there, especially after being banished from Erekle II's court. Therefore I propose this event be assigned to Armenia as well. These days he seems to be more famous in Armenian circles than Georgian ones anyway, thanks to being in The Colour of Pomegranates.

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Year is at least 1675. Year is before 1715



Sulkhan-Saba Orbeliani

Sulkhan-Saba Orbeliani (1658-1725) was a Georgian polymath. He wrote Georgia's first dictionary, wrote a classic of Georgian literature called A Book of Wisdom and Lies when he was only in his 20s, and later was sent as a diplomat to France to try to create an alliance with Louis XIV (Louis died and it came to nothing.) He was also a Catholic monk for a while. Interesting guy. I want to leave the diplomatic stuff out of the blurb because it feels a bit railroady.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulkhan-Saba_Orbeliani


"Sulkhan-Saba Orbeliani (1658-1725) was a Georgian polymath. He wrote A Book of Wisdom and Lies (Tsigni Sibrdzne Sitsruisa), a classic of Georgian literature that uses fables to explore human folly and how to live a more moral life. He also wrote the first Georgian dictionary and was instrumental in the development of printing and literacy in the country."


We are fortunate to have such a talent in our realm.


Effects:

Gain 50 Admin

Gain 10 prestige

(I'd be tempted to have something about increasing institution spread speed here.)


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This event is not *quite* historical. Due to Eastern Georgia's subjugation to the Persians, there was rather little development of urban and social infrastructure there until Vakhtang VI. However, in the game Georgia would almost inevitably have to be independent or they wouldn't be being played, so I think there's a case to be made that they would have invested in this area if they'd had the wherewithal. And there is historical evidence that the baths were being used more by common people in the 17th century. And the oldest still existing bathhouse is from 1726, so well within the timeframe. (http://www.eurasianet.org/node/64912)


Year is at least 1650.


Develop the Tbilisi Baths

We Georgians have been bathing in public baths since the days of the Roman Empire. Indeed our capital Tbilisi was built on hot springs by Vakhtang Gorgasali in the 5th century CE. Since then, we have enjoyed the warm sulphurous waters there. Now, under the cultural influence of the Islamic Empires to our south, the common people and our soldiers have become ever more keen to wash their cares away. We should build more bathhouses to satisfy public demand and show our munificence.


Yes, let us provide for our people in this way.

Pay x money, gain 10 prestige.


No, our people have no need of such amusements.

Lose 5 prestige.

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Growth of Armenian Diaspora

Triggers: Armenia does not exist

Year is at least 1600

“Our fellow Christians the Armenians have begun settling in our fair land. They are bringing prosperity to our capital, but some of our people are uneasy at the presence of so many foreigners in our midst.”


Let them stay!

+2 base tax, +1 unrest in Kartli


We have no need of these interlopers!

Lose 5 prestige?


Context: there were a lot of Armenians in Tbilisi and they actually formed the vast majority of the population in the 19th century.

Finally, I’d like to discuss Georgia’s National Ideas.

Spoiler

Georgia’s current National Ideas:

Traditions:

Traditions:

+50% Hostile core-creation cost on us

−10% Shock damage received



Chance of new heir.png Bagrationi Dynasty

+50% Chance of new heir



Improve relations.png Georgian Isolation

+30% Improve relations



Construction cost.png Restoration of Fortresses and Churches

−10% Construction cost



Income from vassals.png Georgian Protectorates

+20% Income from vassals



Stability cost modifier.png Samouravo Counties

−10% Stability cost modifier



Manpower recovery speed.png Sadrosho Districts

+20% Manpower recovery speed



Diplomatic reputation.png Georgian Embassies

+1 Diplomatic reputation



Idea bonus.png Ambition:

−20% Infantry cost



My comments:

There are a couple of these that stick out as being unfitting. First is Georgian Protectorates. Simply put, during the time period of the game, Georgia basically never had any vassals so I have no idea why this is part of the National Ideas. The Georgia of the Golden Age had some vassal states e.g. Ganja for brief periods, the Ossetians/Alans were kind of vassals for a bit in the same time period, and there was the historic relationship to Trebizond. But Trebizond is the only one of these which might be applicable in game terms from 1444 onwards and they only existed until 1461! The constituent parts of Georgia were vassals of other powers (the Ottomans and the Persians) but that does not make this idea make any more sense. I note that I’m not the only person on these forums to have made this point (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...erhaul-suggestion.979905/page-3#post-22755127).

The other one of these that I’m not keen on is Samouravo Counties. Although these were indeed created by Giorgi VIII/I of Kakhetia in the late 1400s, 1) that was only in part of the territory of Georgia and more importantly 2) Georgia afterwards, particularly in the West, was an absolute nest of snakes basically until King Vakhtang VI or so, so reducing stability cost really doesn’t fit the times. (Referring to a slightly more restricted period, Rayfield says “The story of western Georgia between the death of King Alexandre [i.e. 1660] and the accession of King Solomon I [i.e. 1752] is a confusing vortex of internecine war, depositions and restorations, abduction, adultery, mutilation, murder and treachery. The only consolation for the student of Imeretian-Gurian-Mingrelian history is that it was even more terrible to endure in reality than to read about in retrospect.”) Plus to be honest -10% stability cost modifier is pretty boring and limited.


Instead I would like to suggest some alternatives that seem much more suitable. The first of these is an idea for reduced war exhaustion. Again, this is not an original idea on these forums http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...erhaul-suggestion.979905/page-3#post-22755127). One of the key threads of Georgian history in this period is that they just kept fighting and resisting (particularly the Muslim empires – not Russia quite so much), even though they usually lost in the end. King Teimuraz I spent 50 years resisting the Persians in the first half of the 1600s, losing and regaining his throne repeatedly in the process. Later, the 300 Aragvians would become famous for their last stand (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Hundred_Aragvians). When Georgians weren’t fighting the empires that had vassalised them they were fighting one another. The principalities of Western Georgia in particular fought each other over and over again in this period.


Resistance to Foreign Domination

“In spite of our small size compared to the mighty empires around us, we defend our land against all-comers. Our tenacity in the face of adversity has kept the idea of Georgia alive even through our darkest hours as a nation.”

-0.02 monthly war exhaustion

(If anyone can come up with a better name for this idea I’m all ears. I would call it Legacy of the 300 Aragvians but since they come up at the end of the period rather than the beginning it would seem a bit odd.)


The second is something relating to Georgia’s Orthodox faith. Georgia was a very early adopter of Christianity (they tend to say the second after Armenia but I understand there’s a bit of dispute about that) and Orthodoxy has remained a central part of Georgian identity since the 300s. Indeed, in the tenth century, Giorgi Merchule defined Georgia as anywhere where Mass was said in Georgian. Also, unlike say the Russians, who had a variety of sects split off from the main church, as far as I know this never really happened in Georgia. Moreover, their Orthodoxy was crucial to their foreign policy in this period. They kept trying to draw closer to Russia because Russia, unlike the Ottomans and the Persians, was an Orthodox power. Even when some of the rulers of Kakheti, Kartli and Imereti converted to Islam, this was always under strong pressure from the imperial power and usually just for show. Samtskhe was a bit of an exception admittedly, and became rather Muslim under the Ottomans.

So my suggestion for this would be:

St Nino’s Cross

“In the 4th century, St Nino cured Queen Nana of Iberia of a mortal illness. As a result, her husband, King Mirian, made Christianity our state religion. Since that time, we Georgians have tightly held on to our Christian faith. As one of the first Christian nations, it is crucial for us to maintain our faith against all others. May we one day once again have the strength to aid our brethren in Jerusalem!”

Tolerance of the True Faith +2

OR

Something that increases the new Patriarch Authority from Third Rome.

(Note: once again, this is not an original idea: (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...e-of-new-effects.1031640/page-2#post-23034910))

Note: St Nino was the one who converted Georgia to Christianity. Her cross, made of vine branches, is a symbol of Georgian Christianity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grapevine_cross). The Georgians set up a monastery in Jerusalem long before 1444 but had increasingly little power to protect their clergy and so on, hence the last line.

I would suggest making this an early idea, possibly even a tradition, but certainly one of the first 2 ideas.


There are four other elements of Georgian history that I think would be particularly appropriate for National Ideas, but I haven’t totally fleshed them out yet. Those are the history as being possibly the birthplace of wine; Vakhtang VI’s code the dasturlamali (a late idea which would reduce unrest in some way) and relatedly the institution of serfdom, or patronqmoba, which was extremely persistent and created a society of nobles and peasants; and something relating to fort maintenance (there are castles all over Georgia, and in particular Svaneti deserves a mention as a place where every single family had their own defensive tower https://www.georgianjournal.ge/pictures/image2/5498601486b096ab6031b59ef9f73764.jpg.) As for which ideas would be eliminated, I know many people find Hostile Core Creation Cost boring, although I understand the gameplay reasons for why that might be necessary. Controversially, since it seems like a bit of a nerf, I’d be tempted to get rid of one of the two diplomatic ideas. Georgia absolutely did send out emissaries throughout the period, but they were notably unsuccessful in gaining support from larger powers, whether they be the Pope, France, or indeed Russia under Peter the Great, who promised support and didn’t show up in 1722. The one exception is the Traktat they signed with Russia under Catherine the Great, which the Russians promptly broke and led to them being annexed. I’m also not particularly keen on the Ambition being reduced infantry cost but I don’t have a strong idea of what to replace it with.

There are obviously lots of more fundamental changes that could be made to Georgia too (a complicated event chain to simulate its breakup in the late 1400s, the introduction of Ossetian and Abkhaz cultures to the game, and so on) but this is long enough already. Thank you if you’ve read to the end. I don’t speak Georgian sadly (although I do speak some Russian) so I’m sure I’ve made plenty of mistakes - please pick me up on them.
I'd like to credit the participants on these threads: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/rome-by-the-euxine.980305/ https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ion-comprehensive-overhaul-suggestion.979905/ as being particularly helpful.

 

[Reavici]

Well I did all my best to entirely redraw Caucasus. this is the most accurate map I have ever made about Caucasus tbh
sources: (1) (2)

Circassia

Spoiler

as I already noted Circassia lacks provinces and terrain bonuses

after besieging Adygea, Circassia is basically spliting into two parts. one tiled connected provinces are not effective to resist stronger enemies, you need to have some logistic and terrain advantages. also Circassia has not mountainious provinces... while alternatively they were known as "mountaineers"

so I decided to entirely redraw it's borders.
now Circassia got 2 coastal provinces, Shapsugia and Zykhia. Circassians were known as pirates (*)
province name : capital : dynamic name : terrain : trade goods
Shapsugia : Anapa : ru. Novorossiysk : hills : (?)
Zykhia : Nicopsia : ru. Sotchi, ge, Jiketi : hills : (?)

also I added 2 mountainous provinces Abasinia and Balkaria, it would be nice additional province to do some strategic retreat during wars, while enemy is besieging either Kabardia or Adygea you can reorganize or gather additional troops. also locals in Abasinia and Kabardia were not Circassians at all, they had their own unique identity.
province name : capital : dynamic name : terrain : trade goods
Abasinia : Arkhyz (Maghas, ex-capital of k.o. Alania) : x : mountain : (?)
Balkaria : (?) : x : mountain : (?)

now steppes are: Adygea, Kabardia (Greater and Lesser Kabardia) and Ossetia.

I suggest to add separated Circassian tag: Principality of Kabardia
it would include Kabardia, Balkaria and Ossetia provinces

Dagestan:
I just fixed some provinces and split Khundzia into two parts:
now Chechnia is separated mountainious province.

Georgia:

Spoiler

Georgia is represented as 3 tags
Imereti got extra mountainous province: Svaneti
and separatist tags: Principality of Odishi, Guria and Abkhazia

Samtskhe:
Stagnation of Samtskhe started after annexation of it's the only ally Trebizond (1461). it was drowned in ocean of rival Georgian principalities and Islamic countries from the south.
according to Treatry of Amasya signed between Persia and Ottoman empire, Samtskhe was split into two parts: it's south-western provinces Tao and Adjara-Klarjeti were annexed by Ottomans

annexation of Samtskhe is even preserved in Turkish folklore "Expedition to Georgia"

Spoiler

in 1578, Ottomans annexed Kars and later Meskheti province

Turkish dynamic names for it

province name : capital : dynamic name : terrain : trade goods
Adjara (Klarjeti) : batumi : tr. Cildir, ru. Artvin (?) : mountains : ?
Meskheti : Akhaltsikhe : tr. Ahiska, ru. Akhaltsikh : mountains : ?
Kars : Kars : x : plateau : ? (Circassian culture)
Tao :

Eastern Georgia:
I suggest Kartli and Kakheti (1465–1762) tags instead of Georgia tag from the start of the game.

also I exluded Hereti from the Shaki province. Hereti (Saingilo), was part of Kingdom of the Kakheti until 17th century

Spoiler

In the early 17th century, Shah Abbas I of Safavid of Persia took these lands from the king of Kakheti and granted them to the Dagestani feudal clans who enjoyed a degree of autonomy (Djar-Beylakan society, the sultanate of Ilisu). Northern Caucasian mountaineeres established there Avarian (in the Ch'ar-Belakan District) and Tsakhurian "free communes." As a result of raids conducted by bands of Avar and Tsakhur warriors in Saingilo, the Ingilos became serfs of the Daghestanian rulers, who forced them to make pay tribute. Some Daghestanian families hired themselves out as temporary workers on Ingilo farms. In this way, gradually, by peaceful or hostile means, these tribes settled in Saingilo and colonized it. Already after the foundation of the sultanate of Elisu the conquerors had, by a concerted effort, undertaken the Islamicization of the region.

Persia tried to do same thing in Kakheti province too, but this happanaed: Bakhtrioni uprising

also I added Dariali Gorge later known as Georgian military road and passes between Dagestan to eastern Georgia through Hereti.
quote from the Wikipedia

Lekianoba (Georgian: ლეკიანობა) was the name given to sporadic forays and marauds by Dagestani people into Georgia from the 16th to the 19th centuries. The term is derived from Leki(i.e. Lezgian), by which the Georgians knew Dagestani peoples, with the suffix –anoba which designates attribution.

The attacks began with the disintegration of the Kingdom of Georgia and the subsequent decline of its successor states in the incessant defence warfare against the Persian and Ottoman empires. In the late 16th century, part of Georgian marchlands in the Kingdom of Kakheti, later known as Saingilo, was given by the Persian shah Abbas I to his Dagestani allies, creating a base for subsequent invasions.

 

[Delurker]

I like it!
I see you got rid of Mtianeti and split it between Kartli and Kakheti...

 

[Reavici]

Well I doubt if pdx ever gonna add separated Mtianeti region, so I tried to do some realistic suggestions.

I have already explained importance of Mtianeti.

I suggest you to read about Bakhtrioni uprising

Mtiels aka "mountaineer Georgians" played important role in liberational war in support of Kakhetian lowlanders. Most of Kakhetians were deported by Persian Shah to Persian mainland and their lands were colonized by turcoman tribes.

The Eristavi Zaal, Duke of Aragvi, one of the main feudal lords in Kakheti, a former supporter of Teimuraz who had made allegiance to Rostom and the Persians in 1648 and thus gained even more power, took the lead of the uprising. Among the leaders were also Bidzina Choloqashvili, Shalva, eristavi of Ksani, and his brother Elizbar Eristvisshvili. Georgian mountain people, such as the Tushs, the Khevsurians and the Pshavs, also joined the rebellion.

As you can notice Mtianeti and Kakheti were two different areas.

 

[Delurker]

Well I doubt if pdx ever gonna add separated Mtianeti region, so I tried to do some realistic suggestions.

I have already explained importance of Mtianeti.

I suggest you to read about Bakhtrioni uprising

Mtiels aka "mountaineer Georgians" played important role in liberational war in support of Kakhetian lowlanders. Most of Kakhetians were deported by Persian Shah to Persian mainland and their lands were colonized by turcoman tribes.

The Eristavi Zaal, Duke of Aragvi, one of the main feudal lords in Kakheti, a former supporter of Teimuraz who had made allegiance to Rostom and the Persians in 1648 and thus gained even more power, took the lead of the uprising. Among the leaders were also Bidzina Choloqashvili, Shalva, eristavi of Ksani, and his brother Elizbar Eristvisshvili. Georgian mountain people, such as the Tushs, the Khevsurians and the Pshavs, also joined the rebellion.

As you can notice Mtianeti and Kakheti were two different areas.

Yeah I know - that's why I thought you might want to keep it as a separate province.

 

[AirikrStrife]

Talking about the HCC that @FleetingRain suggested I have thought about it and also been thinking on those lines before ever since PDX introduced the age ability given in increased combat capitol terrain with. I thought about several countries and how these kind of modifiers would be really fitting such as the caucasus. One of my prime examples I thought something along those lines were needed was the Khanate of Kazan which was a forest khanate with just loose control of some step territories south of the forest, but most likely were by accident of knowingly made steppe so that they would be able to get the horde cavalry benefits.

I think maybe the HCC is a bit overpowerd, I'm not sure to be honest, it would have to be playtested I guess. I thought more on lines with the capitol terrain ability but since it's an age ability I doubt PDX wants to give it as it's own idea or modifier. Along Rains lines I thouht about maybe less strong approaches which would also rather mimic the steppe hordes flat land terrain bonuses but doing the opposite. Maybe a simple as having caucasians countries have a tradition that gives increased combat ability in high terrain (mountains, highland and hills) Maybe this could e further advanced to be "culture features" thinking in the style that if georgians fights in a province with georgian culture they get a combat bonus. And then all or most cultures/culture groups would have some sort of bonus along those lines. Dunno if that would work either

 

[AirikrStrife]

In reply to Reavicis latest map:

I think this or similiar is ideally how cauasus should look. It cnan always be debatted removing or added one province or so, but I think this is about the ideal distribution. Mitianeti is obviously one of the provinces which would have been great to have there aswell, but other way around removing Svaneti and maybe Balkaria or Baku if it needs to get slimed down a bit.

On Circassia:
I would still change the name of Adigea province to Termigoy, as the main tribe which is te basis of the modern Adige people and standardized language and inhabited that area.
What is you basis of using Balkaria fr the areas inhabited by mountain tatars? the way you used Alania previously worked as those people were also known as alans, but well this is more correct but any particular reason why using Balkaria instead of Karachay? I seen another name somewhere which might work, gonna try and find it.
Are you sure Ossetia should be steppes? Ossetians are noted as a mountain people after the fall of their state (I know the province includes more than just 15th century ossetian areas) but heightmaps of the caucasus reveals that Vladikavkaz is in the mountains. At the very least hills would be more appropriate I believe

About Nakh lands: Maybe, just maybe it could be split in two (Chechnya and Ingushetia) Anyway not enough provinces for a seperate Nakh culture but a little bit more feastible then just one province, especially if it's made it's own country, whih I still think it should be as a tribal democracy.

About Georgia: I really like having a passage between Georgia and Dagestan. But that's not through the Darial orge if I'm not completly mistaken. Georgian military road goes from Tbilisi to Gori and then conintues up north to the gorge (which is also known as the gate of alans) and then goes to Vladikavkaz.

 

[Reavici]

Circassia must have at least 6-7 provinces. Karachay area was known as "Caraccioli" according to some French maps, it lit. Translates as "Black Circassia". I merged it to Abassinia for some reason. Mountain Tatars are Balkars. Balkars are remnants of Alans who got assimilated by Kypchaks or Pechenegs. later they were influenced by Circasses. Kabardians are mixed Circasso-Alans too. Nart sagas, Alan legacy of statehood, aristocratic tendencies among Kabardians or whatever etc are reasons why Kabardians were so successful unlike their western compatriots I guess... thats my theory tho.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabardino-Balkaria

We must research some information about Balkarian role within Circassia and their exact endonym in the past.

Major part of Ossetia are lowlands, only small and irrelevant parts of it are mountainous, I'm ok with hills too. Svaneti is isolated and poor province, sure it has basis to be considered as separated region, but i doubt it will not pass pdx's requirements, same goes to Balkaria i guess... in other hands Mtianeti is nice additional province to lock Dariali passes.

Termigoy is irrelevant term while Adygea perfectly fits to it's location. Autonomous Republic of Adygea is located roughly on the same area.

Nakhs have no history of centralized statehood, except their first ever state Dzurdzukia, which was destroyed by Mongols, feudal system was reduced to decentralized tribal government. After Russian invasion, Islamic priests promoted pan-islamic tendencies among Caucasians and united them against Russia. It was basis for new government system which eventually turned tribal governments into theocracy - called Imamate, it was pan-islamic movement/union and not ethnostate concept based on certain cultures or nations. So at some point it's ahistoric to represent Vainakhs as separated tag during eu4 timeline period.

Same goes to Alans or Ossetians, their statehood ended around XV century and restored only within USSR as an autonomous entinity.

Personally I am all for adding both Alan and Vainakh culture....

Tommorow I will show you detailed maps of passages between north and south Caucasus

 

[AirikrStrife]

Nakhs have no history of centralized statehood, except their first ever state Dzurdzukia, which was destroyed by Mongols, feudal system was reduced to decentralized tribal government. After Russian invasion, Islamic priests promoted pan-islamic tendencies among Caucasians and united them against Russia. It was basis for new government system which eventually turned tribal governments into theocracy - called Imamate, it was pan-islamic movement/union and not ethnostate concept based on certain cultures or nations. So at some point it's ahistoric to represent Vainakhs as separated tag during eu4 timeline period.

That why there is tribal governments.

We must research some information about Balkarian role within Circassia and their exact endonym in the past.

Taulu according to several sources
for example https://books.google.se/books?id=Nw...6kQ6AEINTAF#v=onepage&q=taulu balkars&f=false
Malkar as name of the province also seems valid.

Termigoy is irrelevant term while Adygea perfectly fits to it's location. Autonomous Republic of Adygea is located roughly on the same area.

Adygea is also a general ethnonym, and it's usage to excluively refer to the adyge republic is a russian invention. Most circassian peoples uses Adyghe as autonym. Thus I consider Adyghea the name for the country, but the subdivisions (provinces) to be based on the dominant tribes. Shapshugs, Termigoy (which is the tribe that is the core of the modern Adyge republic and whose dialects standardized (western circassian) adyghe is based on.

 

[Machabeli]

Wait? if i'm not Mistaken wasn't Vladikavkaz founded by the Russians?

 

[Reavici]

About Georgia: I really like having a passage between Georgia and Dagestan. But that's not through the Darial orge if I'm not completly mistaken. Georgian military road goes from Tbilisi to Gori and then conintues up north to the gorge (which is also known as the gate of alans) and then goes to Vladikavkaz.

Spoiler

there are several (1, 2, 3) passes from Dagestan to Heret.
Hereti is area roughly around Sheki and Shignaghi.

4th road was connecting Didoya (now part of Khundzia) to kakheti through Tusheti. it was rarely used by Dagestani raiders, since of fortifications and hard terrains there..

5 (Dariali, later known as Georgian military road) and 6th (through Dvaleti) roads were connecting Ossetia and Kartli.

That why there is tribal governments.

sure but Chechens never managed to estabelish independent state, it was associated with Avar khanate

Spoiler

Spoiler

theoretically in alternate universe Chechens could get independence during game timeline period but in this case we would end up creating tags for every existed ethnicities. I think representation of Chechnya is historically irrelevant.

Taulu according to several sources
for example https://books.google.se/books?id=Nw...6kQ6AEINTAF#v=onepage&q=taulu balkars&f=false
Malkar as name of the province also seems valid.

not really sure if Balkaria worth to represent as separated region, it's as "relevant" as Svaneti.

Spoiler

this is what I came up after researching old Circassian maps

Western sources doesn't know/recognizes native Adyge tribes.... native subdivision is irrelevant anyways

Machabeli

if i'm not Mistaken wasn't Vladikavkaz founded by the Russians?

yea, it was

 

[Machabeli]

yea, it was

Yeah of course it's in the name vladikavkaz, vladet kavkazam 'to posses the caucasus'.

 

[AirikrStrife]

sure but Chechens never managed to estabelish independent state, it was associated with Avar khanate

Source? Amjad Jaimoukha claims they had an "independent nation" in the sense that the chechen tribes ruled themselves and had social and tribal allegiances. Considering how weak the Avar Khanate was at this point in time, it was also fairly small. Andi and Didoya people up in the mountains were forming small principalities around this time under Avar political influence but Avar rule don't seem to extend that widely around this time.

I don't know how accurate you consider this map to be

It obviously can't show the full detail of all the tribal structures in the caucasus. Most things seems accurate to me though (though they mixed up Guria and Adjaria a bit it seems like)

this is what I came up after researching old Circassian maps

Western sources doesn't know/recognizes native Adyge tribes.... native subdivision is irrelevant anyways

Well what is relevant? The Circassian tribal structures are the only administrative division there is there, besides I don't suggest changing the province, just the name. Also I don't get why you are having one Adyghea province and one Circassia province.

Balkaria is ofc not super relevant as a political or cultural unit (though I still like having it there for those reasons) but it is also pretty significant if we want to crate that depth of action in northern caucasus that we were discussing.

 

[Reavici]

Jomoukha is pseudo historian. Imam shamil who united most mountainers, including Chechens was Avar by origin and Avars were one of the active at political and military term in n.e. Caucasus.

Well this map could help us to divide provinces more accurately. I like how Kabardia is represented tho

I find some province names on medieval maps
*Zychia ( area populated by Jicks)
*Ciraciolli and Basciani (Karachay + Balkaria)
*Lesser and Greater Cabardia (including Petigori)
*Shqpsygia and Natukhars have no unique name, so lets leave it as Shapsugia(?)
*Temirgoy and Abadzekhs can be represented as Adyghea.
*Besleney and easternmost parts of Krasnodar krai + nogai tribes can be represented as Circassia.

Spoiler: New Caucasus

Samtskhe:
Adjara is really needed
I added Klarjeti - Cildir instead
Klarjeti - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childir_Eyalet#Administrative_divisions
Samtskhe - Akhaltsikh (Ahiska) Eyalet

I hope PDX gonna add Terek area between Circassia and Dagestan areas. it would include: Terek, Kabardia, Ossetia and Chechnya.

Spoiler: other maps

 

[AirikrStrife]

Imam shamil who united most mountainers, including Chechens was Avar by origin and Avars were one of the active at political and military term in n.e. Caucasus.

This does not indicate Avars ruled Chechens in 1444. Everything I read indicate they were independent tribes.

From Wikia but still on line with both your maps and statements and everything I read

Avar sovereigns managed to expand their territory at the expense of free communities in Dagestan and Chechnya. The reign of Umma-Khan (from 1775 to 1801) marked the zenith of the Avar ascendancy in the Caucasus.

On Circassia I prefered some of your earlier maps, using Adyghea and Circassia and province names makes sense as dynamic names for conquerers, but for an Independent Circassian state I prefer native names and representation of the different tribal areas. Besides as we discussed having Balkaria and Abazinia there adds a whole other depth to the strategic situation.

 

[Delurker]

This does not indicate Avars ruled Chechens in 1444. Everything I read indicate they were independent tribes.

From Wikia but still on line with both your maps and statements and everything I read



On Circassia I prefered some of your earlier maps, using Adyghea and Circassia and province names makes sense as dynamic names for conquerers, but for an Independent Circassian state I prefer native names and representation of the different tribal areas. Besides as we discussed having Balkaria and Abazinia there adds a whole other depth to the strategic situation.

I've tried to get up to speed with this conversation because I hadn't read much about the North Caucasus before but having read around it a bit I'd agree with AirikrStrife on the names of the provinces - in fact the third map in the Other Maps Reavici just posted does the same thing AirikrStrife suggested in putting the tribe names on the map rather than calling any province "Circassia" or "Adyghe", which I think would be confusing.

What do you guys think about the Kabardians? From what I read they were more centralised and hierarchical than the other Circassians, as Reavici pointed out, and the nucleus of a new Circassian state began there after Inal's state fell apart. Should they have a separate revolter tag (but also have Circassian culture)?

As for Amjad Jaimoukha, I don't know enough to verify any particular point he makes but he seems reasonably reputable - he's cited a lot by other scholars (https://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,5&q=amjad+jaimoukha&btnG=) and although I haven't read his book on the Circassians, his book on the Chechens at least has an extensive academic bibliography.

 

[Delurker]

So, quoting from the changelog, the relevant bits for Georgia are:
"-Added decision to form Georgia.
-Georgian Traditions no longer give -10% shock damage received and 50% Hostile Core Creation Cost.
- Georgian Traditions now give +10% Infantry Combat ability and +25% Defensiveness.
- Georgian Idea "Bagrationi Dynasty" (+50% Heir Chance) now also gives +0.5 Legitimacy
- Removed Georgian Idea "Georgian Protectorates" ( +20% Income from vassals )
- Removed Georgian Idea "Samouravo Counties" (−10% Stability cost modifier)
- Added Georgian Idea "Legacy of Saint Nino" (+2 tolerance own)
- Added Georgian Idea Dastulamali (war exhuastion = -0.02)
- Added Samtskhe Ideas.
- Updated Georgian leader, advisors and monarch name lists from a suggestion by the poster Delurker."

I'm pretty happy with all the changes, including the changes to the Georgian National Ideas. The only thing that seems off is that they've named the reduced war exhaustion idea "Dasturlamali", when that was a law code and had nothing to do with war exhaustion or war in general really. Does anyone have any suggestions for what to rename it? If we have to stick to Vakhtang VI's reign, it could be called "Mtsvelta Jari", which was the civil defence force he set up, but I don't much like that either since that had little to do with fighting more persistently either.

 

[Delurker]

Quick reactions to the Georgia parts of the new patch:

Positive steps:
Guria is still mountains, but Odishi and Abkhazia have been changed to marsh and hills respectively, which is nice.
Qvarqvare II is down as an intricate webweaver and Aghbugha is down as a law-giver - very nice.
The ship names work.
They changed the trade goods (including Kakheti). Hallelujah! (including Kabardia and Alania!) They're now really good, and I've come around to Guria having fish, since it has Batumi in it in the game.
Georgia's names seem to be okay (although they show the limits of my approach because they're from all over Georgia.)
Historic rivalry between Georgia and Samtskhe seems to be there in practice - they seem to tend to rival one another. Imereti and Georgia can ally though, which is dubious. (Imereti shouldn't start as independent for this reason among others.)
Small development boost to Kartli, Kakheti and Tbilisi which is good although no devastation which is a shame otherwise it might have been higher.
Imereti is a feudal monarchy, which is good. Georgia is still a despotic monarchy though, which is a bit dubious.
The intro text is quite nice. Might have to suggest ones for Imereti and Samtskhe at some point, though, since the Georgia one doesn't really take the right angle on the local politics for them. Also on the fourth tab (Environment I think it's called) you get a run-down of Europe, including stuff about the HRE, which feels kinda irrelevant - could that be replaced with text about AQ, QQ, the Ottomans and the general Persian area? I presume there's an equivalent regional text for that already (?)

Issues:
Imereti's king at game start should be called Demetre, not Demetrius, or the regnal numbers will be wrong.
Something's wrong with the advisor names - some are being generated from somewhere other than the lists I proposed that were added to the game.
Samtskhe is not historic friends with Trebizond. Nor is Imereti or Georgia. That seems dubious. One of my initial missions as Samtskhe was to wipe Trebizond off the map. :S
I don't totally love the changes they made to the NIs I proposed for Samtskhe (better cavalry is a bit dubious in particular) but maybe my idea suggestions were underpowered.
I don't think Demetre should be the really old King of Imereti at start - that sets up a succession war between Georgia and Samtskhe which is not historical.
Still no events or Darial Pass.

 

[Machabeli]

I thank the Devs for all the positive changes but i still don't understand why Imereti is Independent, it's just historically false and it needs to be changed. also are there tags for Kartli and Kakheti? i mean you do form Georgia right? so naturally you would need Georgian tags to form united Georgia.

 

[Delurker]

I thank the Devs for all the positive changes but i still don't understand why Imereti is Independent, it's just historically false and it needs to be changed. also are there tags for Kartli and Kakheti? i mean you do form Georgia right? so naturally you would need Georgian tags to form united Georgia.

I had a look through the game files and I'm pretty sure there aren't tags for Kartli or Kakheti sadly. To form Georgia you need basically all the Georgian provinces except Odishi and Abkhazia IIRC, but of course Georgia starts the game with only Kartli, Kakheti and Tbilisi.

And I agree with you about the independence of Imereti. IMO the possible options are:
1) Start with Georgia and Samtskhe and write a disaster for Georgia to break up.
2) The same as 1, but with Imereti as a Georgian vassal (this is a bit of a kludge but gives the player more options in 1444).
3) Pretend it's 1465 and have Kartli, Kakheti, Imereti and Samtskhe at game start (and no Georgia obviously).

1 or 2 are my preferred options, but 3 would be okay-ish. What we have now just doesn't work at any level historically unfortunately.

 

[Reavici]

I like the new DLC a lot. Middle east trully looks great
- Georgian Traditions now give +10% Infantry Combat ability and +25% Defensiveness.
Noice.
I wonder what Samtskhe ideas looks like.

next top important suggestions:
1) Disintegration event for Georgia
2) adding several Georgian minors, most importently Kakheti and Kartli. and I'm sure Odishi (1557–1867) played more important role in black sea region than Gothia (early 14th century–1475)
3) Dariali pass
4) some province fixations

Spoiler: Disintegration event

I hope this can be revived as a possible event too:
The “Treaty on the Unity of the Iberians (Iverians)”, signed by the kings and princes of Kartli and Kakheti, Samegrelo, Imereti and Guria in 1790; “Since all the Iverians, inhabiting the kingdom of Kartli, Kakheti, Imereti, Odishi and Guria share one religion, are the children born from one Catholic Church and having one language, they also have great love as kinsmen and relatives by blood. Therefore we, the kings and princes of the above-mentioned lands of Iveria promise in the name of All-Mighty God to keep the inviolable agreement of our unity, which will be made clear in the following propositions…”

Treaty promised all-Georgian unity and mutual assistance in case of external threats. King Heraclius II of Georgia was recognized as the "father" of all Georgia that promised the western Georgian polities to help in case of need.