Georgia Changes for Flavour and Accuracy

[Delurker]

I’d like to make some suggestions for how to improve Georgia in the game.


First I’d like to suggest some dynamic province names:

Spoiler

12 Sjælland - Zelandia


41 Koenigsberg – Kenigsbergi


50 Berlin – Berlini


85 Koeln - K'elni


97 Holland - Holandia


101 Genoa - Genua


102 Nice – Nitsa


110 Trent - Trento


112 Venezia – Venetsia


113 Ferrara - Ferara


115 Pisa - Piza


116 Firenze -Florentsia


118 Roma – Romi


121 Napoli – Neapoli


134 Wien - Vena


144 Epirus – Epiri?


146 Athens – Ateni


147 Thessaly – Tesalia?


148 Macedonia - Mak'edonia


149 Edirne – Adrianopoli


150 Tarnovo – Tirnovo?


151 Constantinople - (Istanbul = Stanbuli; Constantinople = K'onst'ant'inop'oli)


153 Pest – Peshti?


163 Crete - Kreta


183 Paris – P’arizi


236 London - Londoni


257 Warszawa – Varshava


262 Krakow - Krakovi


280 Kiev - Kievi


284 Crimea – Qirimi


286 Azov – Azovi (I think)


287 Kuban – Jiketi


(N.B. Kuban should have alternative name if Circassia takes it - Pshyze)


295 Moskva – Mosk’ovi


310 Novgorod – (Didi) Novgorodi – “Didi” means “The Great”, like “Velikiy Novgorod” in Russian


317 Hüdavendigar – Bursa (or Brusa)


319 Mentese – Menteshe?


320 Rhodes – Rodosi


321 Cyprus - K'vip'rosi


327 Adana - Adana


328 Sinop – Sinopi


329 Sivas - several options – Sebastia probably best


330 Trebizond - T'rap'izoni


331 Erzurum - Karnu-Kalaki is probably the best choice


365 Sinai - Sinai


379 Jerusalem – Ierusalimi


382 Damascus - Damask'i


410 Baghdad - Baghdadi


411 Mosul – Mosuli

Edit to add: 416 Tabriz - Tavrizi

418 Diyarbakir - Diarbakiri


419 Yerevan – Erivani/Erebuni


421 Shirvan = Shirvani


424 Ardabil - Ardebili


428 Teheran - Teirani


429 Isfahan – Ispaani


442 Bukhara - Bukhara


445 Merv - Mervi


454 Samarkand - Samarqandi


462 Mingrelia – Samegrelo - Mingrelia is the Russian name, not the Georgian one. EDIT: on further reading actually Odishi is an even better choice for the name of the province than Samegrelo, which was only really used in the 19th century. Definitely not Mingrelia though.


463 Circassia – Cherkezeti


464 Astrakhan - Ast'rakhani


475 Bashkortostan - Bashk'ireti


522 Delhi – Deli


1765 Sofia – Sofia


1773 Achaea - Akaia


1816 Beijing - P'ek'ini


1855 Sidon - Sidoni


2205 Nakhchivan – Nakhichevani


2208 Terek – Tergi


2218 Shiraz - Shirazi


2306 Mush - Mushi


2307 Van – Vani


2313 Antioch - Ant'iokia


2331 Jeddah – Jida


2348 Chios - Kiosi

Other changes:

My major source for all this is Edge of Empires: a History of Georgia by Donald Rayfield, which as far as I can tell is the most comprehensive study available in English. All the events apart from the baths one are featured in that text. Many of these ideas have been suggested before on these forums but I wanted to collate and polish them a bit, as well as back them up a bit more with sources so they seem more credible to those who don’t know this region very well.

The Darial Pass

The South Caucasus should have a break in the middle for the Darial Pass. It should link Kartli to Alania. The Darial Pass was very important in the history of the region. In the period roughly 1000-1400 the fact that the pass was controlled by Georgians or their allies (the Ossetians) was crucial in stopping Georgia being invaded by the steppe peoples to the North. Later, when Russia finally decisively invaded Georgia at the end of the 1700s, they did so through the Darial Pass. The current situation is ahistorical and encourages powers in the Northern Caucasus to attack via Abkhazia, which was famously difficult and swampy terrain in real life and so was only subdued by the Russian Empire later.

Darbazi

Very minor, but if possible it would be nice to change the “Call Diet” action in the estates tabs to “Call Darbazi”, since that was the name of the roughly equivalent Georgian institution (it was basically the King’s council.) For added flavour, it could increase the influence of the clergy as well as the nobility, as the key religious figures were also invited to darbazis.

Noble influence

A small change that I don’t know how easy it would be to modify, but the common thread for Georgia in this period is a strong and disloyal nobility. It would be good to have higher noble influence as a result, to make it harder to manage that estate. I think there’s a reasonable case for making Georgia a Feudal Monarchy rather than a Despotic Monarchy.

Events:

Currently, Georgia has no events of its own at all. I am aware that it's a bit difficult to create events for Georgia because it spent most of the period hopelessly split, with the West under the thumb of the Ottomans and the East the Persians. For this reason I've gone for cultural achievements because 1) they're not railroady and 2) they are not dependent on the overall geopolitical situation to the same extent. Here are my suggestions. I'm flexible on the effects they have - the aim is to provide flavour for a tag that has no flavour of its own beyond being Orthodox at the moment, not to turn Georgia into some kind of superpower.

Spoiler

Zaza Panaskerteli-Tsitsishvili’s Karabadini


Conditions:


Year = 1486 or so


http://www.medgeo.net/2009/12/25/სამკურნალო-წიგნი-კარაბად/ (kinda has picture – but could just use generic manuscript pic)


(In 1486) Eristavi Zaza Panaskerteli-Tsitsishvili wrote and compiled an important collection of Georgian medical knowledge. Drawing on Galenic and Sumerian ideas, as well as local remedies, the two volumes of the Karabadini describe methods of identifying diseases and how to examine patients. The Karabadini examines both physical and mental illnesses. Mental illnesses are said to be a product of physical issues in the brain, and therefore they require medication, not magic rituals. In Panaskerteli-Tsitsishvili’s opinion, it is necessary to heal the patient using accurate knowledge based on rational methods of treatment.


Our people shall benefit greatly from this work!


Effects:


+10% population growth (same as Medical Evolution event) for 500 days or whatever (maybe lower but for longer?)


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Sayat-Nova

Sayat-Nova was a renowned ashugh (troubadour) singer in the 18th century. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayat-Nova). He was ethnically Armenian but came from Tbilisi and King Erekle II of Georgia patronised him.


The event should fire from 1740 to 1765


"A wandering ashugh who calls himself Sayat-Nova has come to our court singing songs of love and merriment in all the languages of the South Caucasus. Shall we patronise him?"


YES > pay x money, gain prestige


NO > lose prestige


Note: Since Sayat-Nova was ethnically Armenian, it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that if an Armenian state had existed at the time he would have tried to gain patronage there, especially after being banished from Erekle II's court. Therefore I propose this event be assigned to Armenia as well. These days he seems to be more famous in Armenian circles than Georgian ones anyway, thanks to being in The Colour of Pomegranates.

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Year is at least 1675. Year is before 1715



Sulkhan-Saba Orbeliani

Sulkhan-Saba Orbeliani (1658-1725) was a Georgian polymath. He wrote Georgia's first dictionary, wrote a classic of Georgian literature called A Book of Wisdom and Lies when he was only in his 20s, and later was sent as a diplomat to France to try to create an alliance with Louis XIV (Louis died and it came to nothing.) He was also a Catholic monk for a while. Interesting guy. I want to leave the diplomatic stuff out of the blurb because it feels a bit railroady.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulkhan-Saba_Orbeliani


"Sulkhan-Saba Orbeliani (1658-1725) was a Georgian polymath. He wrote A Book of Wisdom and Lies (Tsigni Sibrdzne Sitsruisa), a classic of Georgian literature that uses fables to explore human folly and how to live a more moral life. He also wrote the first Georgian dictionary and was instrumental in the development of printing and literacy in the country."


We are fortunate to have such a talent in our realm.


Effects:

Gain 50 Admin

Gain 10 prestige

(I'd be tempted to have something about increasing institution spread speed here.)


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This event is not *quite* historical. Due to Eastern Georgia's subjugation to the Persians, there was rather little development of urban and social infrastructure there until Vakhtang VI. However, in the game Georgia would almost inevitably have to be independent or they wouldn't be being played, so I think there's a case to be made that they would have invested in this area if they'd had the wherewithal. And there is historical evidence that the baths were being used more by common people in the 17th century. And the oldest still existing bathhouse is from 1726, so well within the timeframe. (http://www.eurasianet.org/node/64912)


Year is at least 1650.


Develop the Tbilisi Baths

We Georgians have been bathing in public baths since the days of the Roman Empire. Indeed our capital Tbilisi was built on hot springs by Vakhtang Gorgasali in the 5th century CE. Since then, we have enjoyed the warm sulphurous waters there. Now, under the cultural influence of the Islamic Empires to our south, the common people and our soldiers have become ever more keen to wash their cares away. We should build more bathhouses to satisfy public demand and show our munificence.


Yes, let us provide for our people in this way.

Pay x money, gain 10 prestige.


No, our people have no need of such amusements.

Lose 5 prestige.

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Growth of Armenian Diaspora

Triggers: Armenia does not exist

Year is at least 1600

“Our fellow Christians the Armenians have begun settling in our fair land. They are bringing prosperity to our capital, but some of our people are uneasy at the presence of so many foreigners in our midst.”


Let them stay!

+2 base tax, +1 unrest in Kartli


We have no need of these interlopers!

Lose 5 prestige?


Context: there were a lot of Armenians in Tbilisi and they actually formed the vast majority of the population in the 19th century.

Finally, I’d like to discuss Georgia’s National Ideas.

Spoiler

Georgia’s current National Ideas:

Traditions:

Traditions:

+50% Hostile core-creation cost on us

−10% Shock damage received



Chance of new heir.png Bagrationi Dynasty

+50% Chance of new heir



Improve relations.png Georgian Isolation

+30% Improve relations



Construction cost.png Restoration of Fortresses and Churches

−10% Construction cost



Income from vassals.png Georgian Protectorates

+20% Income from vassals



Stability cost modifier.png Samouravo Counties

−10% Stability cost modifier



Manpower recovery speed.png Sadrosho Districts

+20% Manpower recovery speed



Diplomatic reputation.png Georgian Embassies

+1 Diplomatic reputation



Idea bonus.png Ambition:

−20% Infantry cost



My comments:

There are a couple of these that stick out as being unfitting. First is Georgian Protectorates. Simply put, during the time period of the game, Georgia basically never had any vassals so I have no idea why this is part of the National Ideas. The Georgia of the Golden Age had some vassal states e.g. Ganja for brief periods, the Ossetians/Alans were kind of vassals for a bit in the same time period, and there was the historic relationship to Trebizond. But Trebizond is the only one of these which might be applicable in game terms from 1444 onwards and they only existed until 1461! The constituent parts of Georgia were vassals of other powers (the Ottomans and the Persians) but that does not make this idea make any more sense. I note that I’m not the only person on these forums to have made this point (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...erhaul-suggestion.979905/page-3#post-22755127).

The other one of these that I’m not keen on is Samouravo Counties. Although these were indeed created by Giorgi VIII/I of Kakhetia in the late 1400s, 1) that was only in part of the territory of Georgia and more importantly 2) Georgia afterwards, particularly in the West, was an absolute nest of snakes basically until King Vakhtang VI or so, so reducing stability cost really doesn’t fit the times. (Referring to a slightly more restricted period, Rayfield says “The story of western Georgia between the death of King Alexandre [i.e. 1660] and the accession of King Solomon I [i.e. 1752] is a confusing vortex of internecine war, depositions and restorations, abduction, adultery, mutilation, murder and treachery. The only consolation for the student of Imeretian-Gurian-Mingrelian history is that it was even more terrible to endure in reality than to read about in retrospect.”) Plus to be honest -10% stability cost modifier is pretty boring and limited.


Instead I would like to suggest some alternatives that seem much more suitable. The first of these is an idea for reduced war exhaustion. Again, this is not an original idea on these forums http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...erhaul-suggestion.979905/page-3#post-22755127). One of the key threads of Georgian history in this period is that they just kept fighting and resisting (particularly the Muslim empires – not Russia quite so much), even though they usually lost in the end. King Teimuraz I spent 50 years resisting the Persians in the first half of the 1600s, losing and regaining his throne repeatedly in the process. Later, the 300 Aragvians would become famous for their last stand (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Hundred_Aragvians). When Georgians weren’t fighting the empires that had vassalised them they were fighting one another. The principalities of Western Georgia in particular fought each other over and over again in this period.


Resistance to Foreign Domination

“In spite of our small size compared to the mighty empires around us, we defend our land against all-comers. Our tenacity in the face of adversity has kept the idea of Georgia alive even through our darkest hours as a nation.”

-0.02 monthly war exhaustion

(If anyone can come up with a better name for this idea I’m all ears. I would call it Legacy of the 300 Aragvians but since they come up at the end of the period rather than the beginning it would seem a bit odd.)


The second is something relating to Georgia’s Orthodox faith. Georgia was a very early adopter of Christianity (they tend to say the second after Armenia but I understand there’s a bit of dispute about that) and Orthodoxy has remained a central part of Georgian identity since the 300s. Indeed, in the tenth century, Giorgi Merchule defined Georgia as anywhere where Mass was said in Georgian. Also, unlike say the Russians, who had a variety of sects split off from the main church, as far as I know this never really happened in Georgia. Moreover, their Orthodoxy was crucial to their foreign policy in this period. They kept trying to draw closer to Russia because Russia, unlike the Ottomans and the Persians, was an Orthodox power. Even when some of the rulers of Kakheti, Kartli and Imereti converted to Islam, this was always under strong pressure from the imperial power and usually just for show. Samtskhe was a bit of an exception admittedly, and became rather Muslim under the Ottomans.

So my suggestion for this would be:

St Nino’s Cross

“In the 4th century, St Nino cured Queen Nana of Iberia of a mortal illness. As a result, her husband, King Mirian, made Christianity our state religion. Since that time, we Georgians have tightly held on to our Christian faith. As one of the first Christian nations, it is crucial for us to maintain our faith against all others. May we one day once again have the strength to aid our brethren in Jerusalem!”

Tolerance of the True Faith +2

OR

Something that increases the new Patriarch Authority from Third Rome.

(Note: once again, this is not an original idea: (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...e-of-new-effects.1031640/page-2#post-23034910))

Note: St Nino was the one who converted Georgia to Christianity. Her cross, made of vine branches, is a symbol of Georgian Christianity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grapevine_cross). The Georgians set up a monastery in Jerusalem long before 1444 but had increasingly little power to protect their clergy and so on, hence the last line.

I would suggest making this an early idea, possibly even a tradition, but certainly one of the first 2 ideas.


There are four other elements of Georgian history that I think would be particularly appropriate for National Ideas, but I haven’t totally fleshed them out yet. Those are the history as being possibly the birthplace of wine; Vakhtang VI’s code the dasturlamali (a late idea which would reduce unrest in some way) and relatedly the institution of serfdom, or patronqmoba, which was extremely persistent and created a society of nobles and peasants; and something relating to fort maintenance (there are castles all over Georgia, and in particular Svaneti deserves a mention as a place where every single family had their own defensive tower https://www.georgianjournal.ge/pictures/image2/5498601486b096ab6031b59ef9f73764.jpg.) As for which ideas would be eliminated, I know many people find Hostile Core Creation Cost boring, although I understand the gameplay reasons for why that might be necessary. Controversially, since it seems like a bit of a nerf, I’d be tempted to get rid of one of the two diplomatic ideas. Georgia absolutely did send out emissaries throughout the period, but they were notably unsuccessful in gaining support from larger powers, whether they be the Pope, France, or indeed Russia under Peter the Great, who promised support and didn’t show up in 1722. The one exception is the Traktat they signed with Russia under Catherine the Great, which the Russians promptly broke and led to them being annexed. I’m also not particularly keen on the Ambition being reduced infantry cost but I don’t have a strong idea of what to replace it with.

There are obviously lots of more fundamental changes that could be made to Georgia too (a complicated event chain to simulate its breakup in the late 1400s, the introduction of Ossetian and Abkhaz cultures to the game, and so on) but this is long enough already. Thank you if you’ve read to the end. I don’t speak Georgian sadly (although I do speak some Russian) so I’m sure I’ve made plenty of mistakes - please pick me up on them.
I'd like to credit the participants on these threads: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/rome-by-the-euxine.980305/ https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ion-comprehensive-overhaul-suggestion.979905/ as being particularly helpful.

 

[AirikrStrife]

Another thing you might not have much of an opinion about and maybe it's just me being crazy. But I thought of having the north caucasian start of as tengriist, obviously they weren't but it's the syncretic religion mechanism I'm after and also the religious bonuses for cavalry is really fitting for Circassians and Vainakhs. Because having Circassia always remain Orthodox looks a bit wrong. This way they will turn muslim if the region is dominated by muslim forces, while a resurgent christendom could convince them to go the christian way. Adigea would then start with catholicism as syncretic religion I thought to facilitate good relations with the genoans and Kabardino would start with orthodox syncretism. Vainakhs wouldn't have one at start with the states of Dagestan proper being muslims at start.

 

[Reavici]

Jicks would be part of Circassian culture. Vakhushti describes them as "wild" people unlike Abkhazians.

Svaneti used to have around 10k population, is it really worth to add?

Jicks were mercenaries and used to be nominal vassals or at least were part of Georgian sphere of influence, but after desintegration of united Georgia, they started constant raidings on weakaned Imereti.

Spoiler

Western Georgia felt pressure from the mountains in the late 14th century where the Jicko-Abkhaz tribes presented the greatest threat to the Abkhazian Saeristavo. The House of Sharvashidze, which for many centuries had been associated with Georgian law and order in the region, not merely remained passive in the face of the tribal onslaught. It served as the main instrument for further infiltration of these mountain tribes in the southeastern direction in an effort to defeat the Odishi potentates.

Throughout the 16th century, however, a large part of what today is Abkhazia “as far as Sukhum” remained the “land of the Dadianis.” Early in the 17th century members of the House of Sharvashidze, aware of the weakened Odishi-Megrelia rulers, moved against the Dadiani House. It is commonly believed that this was when an Abkhazian principality independent from Odishi-Megrelia appeared.


In the 1630s Levan II Dadiani (1611-1637) moved into Abkhazia; his troops reached the River Kapoetistskali (the Bzyb) and remained for some time in control of the Sharvashidze House. Later, the Abkhazians resumed their devastating inroads into the Odishi domains, thus forcing Levan II Dadiani to build fortifications along the Kelasuri, the so-called Kelasuri Wall, “sixty thousand steps long.” According to Italian missionary Archangelo Lamberti who lived for a long time in Megrelia, the wall was built in the middle of the 17th century to put a halt to the Abkhaz raids.

n the latter half of the 17th century the Abkhazians penetrated beyond the Kelasuri Wall and pushed their border with Odishi to the Kodori River; later they conquered the territory between the Kodori and Inguri rivers.

Despite the general cultural decline caused by the revived primitive order, Abkhazia still remained part of the area of the Georgian written culture and literacy. Judging by deeds, oath books, and other documents of the Abkhazian princes’ chancelleries Georgian remained the official language. As late as the latter half of the 18th century when the Ottoman Empire put more pressure on Abkhazia and forced the princes of the Sharvashidze House to confess Islam Abkhazia still partly remained within the Georgian state, political, cultural, and linguistic space.

Spoiler

The Jiks living on the zight bank of the river Bzip and their highlander allies continued
to attack the west Georgia trying to invade the valley passing through Abkhazia. Mamia
III Dadiani and Mamia I Gurieli in their turn organized the great invasion of Jiketi in
1533.

I already posted detailed information of this battle... check out our latest posts.
Tl;dr
Feudal conflicts between Shervashidze and Dadiani created separated identity of modern Abkhazians. Who used Circassian barbarians as an instrument to weaken thier suzerain and gain independence. Organized raids totally changed demographics of Abkhazia. Once strongest Odishi was weakened by northern tribes, they even managed to raze Zugdidi (capital of principality), population of Odishi were reduced - enslaved or assimilated.

Well after Temerlane invasion, Alania was destroyed to the ground. As far as i know Sadz and other Circassian tribes migrated and filled ex-Alan westernmost lands. Some Circassians and Abkhazs even claims that it were Abkhazians who went to north Caucasus through Kodori gorge, after preasure of Odishi from the south. But i doubt that. Its impossible for thousands of people to pass greater Caucasus... anyways european travellers doesn't mention Abkhazs in northern Odishi.

Zykhia (ru. Sotchi, ge. Jiqeti)

I think we need more information before deciding to split Circassia into two states. I said it needs boosting not nerfing it must be strong enough to counterbalance ottoblobs and potential enemies from the north. And it must be impossible for Genoa to annex Circassia...

Not sure about tribal democracy, I think they would be more tribal despots.

---
Using Chechnya is anachronism, it must be either Durdzuketi or Durdzukia. Grozny would be russian dynamic name for it. I would leave Durdzuketia under Avar khanate rule. Avars were one of the active ethnicity in north eastern Caucasus, even todat they are leading other Dagestanians. Being Avar is somethibg like fashy for minor Dagestanian tribes.

Btw Vakhushti describes residents of Didoya (part of Khundzia) as wild people, also worshipers of paganist gods/satan, according to him, Didoyans and most likely most of Dags used to have council of elders... idk if that can be considered as tribal democracy.

There was Georgian churches in Ingushetia, they used to be christians until 17th century... not sure about Chechens. Vainakhs adopted islam recently, before they would be most likely pagans with some orthodox influence... i have no idea about tengriism, sorry

I need more information about achivements

Western parts of Mtianeti and Dariali pass were controlled by Kartli. So I think it must be part of Kartli.

 

[Machabeli]

Western parts of Mtianeti and Dariali pass were controlled by Kartli. So I think it must be part of Kartli.

I thought Mtianeti would belong to Kakheti?

Svaneti used to have around 10k population, is it really worth to add?

Sure it still should be added.(i mean if we can have Mtianeti surely then we can have Svaneti too)

 

[Reavici]

upgrade
It needs some cosmetic fixation

suggested tags:
Georgia:
Imereti has the most provinces among other existed Georgian tags. to balance powers it needs several separatistic tags, like:
*Odishi (Abkhazia and Odishi as core)
*Guria (Adjara and Guria)
it would be cool if every principalities had its own tag, but I'm worried it would break the game...

*Samtskhe is surounded by rival Georgian kingdoms and muslim invaders. it will have close ties with Trebizond (even alliances), after annexation of Trebizond it will start stagnation. Kars is the only province with - Armenian culture and coptic faith. and separatistic Gurians in Adjara.
*Kartli seems strong and it's most homogenous area. but separatist Kakheti ruled by Bagrationi's would balance their ambitions
Circassia:
I decided to add Kabardia minor and Karachai also known as Alania, those two provinces could have Alan culture. in several old maps i noticed Kamykia as part of Circassia so i decided to add Kamykia province too.

now I can imagine how hard it gonna be for Russia to fight against allied northern Caucasian states

 

[Machabeli]

Nice job Reavici! Circassia looks really mighty now and North Caucasus itself looks way better than it ever did. though i'm not really sure about Shirvans provinces did Shirvan really own Arran at that time period? and was it even that big?

 

[Reavici]

Machabeli
I doubt that Arran existed as separate entinity in late period, but it was not armenian populated either... I just divided Melikates into two parts.

Spoiler

----
reason why I added Greater Kabardia and Kabardia minor provinces:

Spoiler

capitals:
Greater Kabardia: Nalshyk
Lesser Kabardia: Mozdok

 

[AirikrStrife]

My main sources on Circassia:
https://books.google.se/books?id=E6...EITTAE#v=onepage&q=northwest caucasus&f=false
The Northwest Caucasus by Walter Richmond)
and
https://books.google.se/books?id=eE...ce=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
(Circassian History by Kadir Natho

My reasoning for seperate Kabard and Adygh state goes as following. The text you posted about Kabardin relations to russia, as well as most other books and sources talking about Kabardins from 1400-1900 talks about them seperately. They have their own princes, religious and political development and from a perspective of foreign policy and even military conquest kabardins are in all books treated as a seperate polity. In this kind of quasi-feudal/tribal and nomadic world without any notion of a westphalian state model it is obviously not easy to make a strict conclusion. But all readings seems to indicate Kabardins as a stronger political center, while Adighe obviously had close ties but did not have as complex social and political structure as their eastern compatriots. None of above books really deals with Prince Inal, and on a subchapter in Natho's book he discusses the genoese relations with Adyghe princes, which did not have a unified polity and the genose made individual agreement with various princes.
Walter Richmond in his book also supports this suggesting Kabardia in the 16th century had formed a "state" while the western circassians had not.
It is really a question of interpretation of how to define a state in EUIV and to some extent gameplay balance, but I believe if all the provinces you propose are added it could work out well as each circassian state would have 4 provinces each, as many as circassia has atm. Giving that both states could have a development around the current 20. Now I haven't seen the development for the new georgia, but in current patch I believe it is 52, while the development have been increased I doubt any of the three current georgian states has over 40 development.

PDX policies is not to add cultures with less than three provinces and a tangible tag to go with them. So I guess Ossetia and Alania goes with Circassians culture.

There were Kabardin movement all the way to the caspian sea but the territory were also inhabited by tatars and under Golden Horde suzerainity, so I would probably not have Kamykia as part of a circassian/Kabardin state

Chechnya woud be an anachronism but I believe Dzudzukia would be that also, as it would be used only by georgians at this point in time. Using Chechnya would be consistent with some other decision PDX made through them game looking towards the future rather than the past, though the name is not of that importance. Having them as a tribal democracy is based on my reading of a chapter in this book https://books.google.se/books?id=Pn...ce=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Moving the Dvaleti region to the kartli province (and adding one manpower representing that alanian manpower you talked about before) and letting Mtianeti be part of Kacheti, would that work?

I don't know about that many provinces for Shirvan, but about culture I do believe it would be somewhat more appropriate to use Tat culture (as a local persian culture). Azerbaijanis wouldn't come to dominate in the Shirvan area until later.

 

[Reavici]

AirikrStrife
i remember when back then Georgia was represent as whole Caucasus, later they added Circassia. now we have Gazimukh, Avar khanate and several Georgian tags. Pdx is really evolving. I think spliting Circassia is early for now. they need to add several provinces to north Caucasus, then we can talk about different Circassian tags...

personally I find your suggestion pretty accurate. both Kabardia and Adigea are local terms, while Circassia can be used as common name for both polities.

I think Circassia is "socio-political" area and it must be formable tag, since it probably something like ideology or final goal for all NWC people, just like Georgia for seceded states after it's disintegration in XV century.
conclusion:
*Adigea and Kabardia can be separate tags, with same culture.
*Circassia can be formable tag for both Circassian tags.

it would be really fun to play as either Adigea or Kabardia and try out to Unite all Circassian provinces, embrace feudalis, westernize country by support of genoese traders or even convert to Catholicism etc

province Alania and Ossetia could have Alan culture, to avoid pdx restrictions, we could add Dvaleti too.

Alan-ossetian culture and realisable Alania tag would really add some flavour to the Caucasus region

There were Kabardin movement all the way to the caspian sea but the territory were also inhabited by tatars and under Golden Horde suzerainity, so I would probably not have Kamykia as part of a circassian/Kabardin state

Kalmyks were Tatars sure, i don't know much about Kalmykia and Circassian relation. probably you are right tho

Chechnya woud be an anachronism but I believe Dzudzukia would be that also, as it would be used only by georgians at this point in time. Using Chechnya would be consistent with some other decision PDX made through them game looking towards the future rather than the past, though the name is not of that importance.

"the Chechens are descended from the Durdzuks, a group well known in the Georgian chronicles (Dourts in the Armenian version)."
Oss-eti-a was used only by Georgia and later it was adopted by Russia too, same goes to Apkhaz-eti (which was transformed as Abkhaz-ia by Russians) and Ingush-eti-a. -eti suffix is Georgian ending which means "land of X country".

"The word "Chechen", however, occurs in Russian sources as early as 1692 and the Russians probably derived it from the Kabardian "Shashan"."
Well i found this on Wikipedia. adoption of certain terms by global power makes them legitimate. so you are prolly right

according to Vakhushti and other XVIII-XIX's Georgian chronicles, Chechens were known as "Chachans". while in Mingrelian it means Gypsy...

Moving the Dvaleti region to the kartli province (and adding one manpower representing that alanian manpower you talked about before) and letting Mtianeti be part of Kacheti, would that work?

like that?

Spoiler

Spoiler

offtop

Moving south from Mozdok, Russia established contact with eastern Georgia through the Darial Gorge. Mozdok remained the northern terminal of the Georgian Military Road leading to Tbilisi until being succeeded by Vladikavkaz (ruler of the Caucasus), founded in 1784 midway between Mozdok and the Darial Pass.

Russian authorities encouraged Ossetians, Georgians, Armenians, and other Christians to populate the town (Mozdok). It soon emerged as a key Russian military outpost linked to Kizlyar with a fortified line as well as the center of local trade, ethnic diversity, and Russian-Caucasian interchange.

In 1789, 55.6% of its population was Armenian and Georgian. Ossetian settlement particularly increased in the 1820s when the Russian commander Yermolov began removing Kabardians from the area of the Georgian Military Road and settling Ossetians there.

-----

don't know about that many provinces for Shirvan, but about culture I do believe it would be somewhat more appropriate to use Tat culture (as a local persian culture). Azerbaijanis wouldn't come to dominate in the Shirvan area until later.

I made it according to this

Spoiler

 

[AirikrStrife]

I wasn't thinking about having Dvaleti as it's own province, just make it part of Kartli instead of Mtianeti. But if there is to be a seperate Alanian/Ossetian culture it would have to be made like this. And I didn't mean to remove Mtianeti necessarily.

i remember when back then Georgia was represent as whole Caucasus, later they added Circassia. now we have Gazimukh, Avar khanate and several Georgian tags. Pdx is really evolving. I think spliting Circassia is early for now. they need to add several provinces to north Caucasus, then we can talk about different Circassian tags...

Since this is a suggestion for caucasus 4.0 with new provinces in the northern caucasus it would work with seperate circassian tags in this suggestion
I think however a unified tag is a little bit superflous, possibly let Kabardia have the possibility to change into Adigea (which would be the starting western tag) because that ethnonym is still common to both groups. Alania could possibly start as a vassal of Kabardia.

ps. I was a bit absentminded before but Kalmyk is a mongol group that migrated to northern caspian in 17th century. Kumyk is a turkic group living in northern dagestan.

 

[AirikrStrife]

The point of tengriism is not that Circassians and Nakhs were actually tengriists, but it's used by PDX as a collectiv tag for all shamanistic beliefs of Siberia. Tengriism is sort of altaic shamanism/paganism that spread between mongol and turkic people and some people believe hungarians also practised tengriism due to contact with turks. Though tengriism never been an organized religion on level with chistianity and islam. Having it represent paganism in Circassia has some merit as some f them were turks. . . I guess

Primarily it is the mechancs of the religion I am after, which is syncretic faith. Also the religious bonuses are fitting for north caucasians

• +25% Cavalry Ratio
• −20% Regiment cost

Being tengriism would allow north caucasians to develop as either christians or muslims, as they historically were split between those faiths with christianity waning around the start of the game. And even then those people had embraced first christianity and later islam pagan beliefs and practises continued for centuries with majority of people being only nominally abrahamitic. How similiar indigenous circassian and Nakh belief system would be in nature to tengrism/shamanism I don't really know, though typically pagan beliefs carry a lot of similarities (there is just that much humans can come up with) and after some quick wikipedia/google searches I can at least see superficial similarities between the belief systems.

Starting with those bonuses and the syncretism also seems more in relation to how orthodox religion works. As Orthodox religion from the beginnin but especially after third rome is strongly associated with the byzantine-rusian civilization, patriarch authority, metropolitan's icons. This is not really fitting for tribal circassians.

 

[Reavici]

I think however a unified tag is a little bit superflous

Circassia must be stronger than its now, to resist Russian invasion in late game

look at length of the war! Circassians were resisting Russians for 101 years...
Russians were using same amount of army against Ottomans

Spoiler

btw Kartli-Kakheti could barely gather 5k army

possibly let Kabardia have the possibility to change into Adigea (which would be the starting western tag) because that ethnonym is still common to both groups.

Adygea is western Circassia, while Kabardia is eastern. Adygea is term commonly used only among western Circassians.
It's seems Circassians had its own Kartli and Imereti I guess.

Alania could possibly start as a vassal of Kabardia.

Ossetians had no official representation under Kabardian rule, they were totally enslaved by them, only part of them (Digors) moved to isolated mountains and became free peasants, while another ones, ancestors of modern South Ossetians (Kudars) moved to Dvaleti and Shida Kartli, where they became serfs of local feudals (like Surameli, Kvenipneveli, Tavkhelisdze-Machabeli, Gabelisdze-Amirejibi, Zevdginidze-Amilakhori, Palavandishvili, Pavlenishvili etc). the ones who are known as an (Irons) stayed under direct Kabardian rule, they had nothing like political autonomy. so I think it's wrong to make them vassals of Kabardians.

Kudars are represented as Tuals (Dvals) on the pic. Kudars were ones who assimilated Dvals.

I was a bit absentminded before but Kalmyk is a mongol group that migrated to northern caspian in 17th century. Kumyk is a turkic group living in northern dagestan.

i often confuse them lol

The point of tengriism is not that Circassians and Nakhs were actually tengriists, but it's used by PDX as a collectiv tag for all shamanistic beliefs of Siberia.

well, I get your point and your suggestions seems really cool
but
tbh religion bonuses are only fitting to Circassia, Chechens were mostly at defence mod, while Circassians were having offensive wars and they were decent expansionists.

 

[Machabeli]

btw Kartli-Kakheti could barely gather 5k army

That's because many nobles deserted Erekle the second so he had to fend the Persians off with his own army.

 

[Reavici]

Spoiler

before he used same amount of army against Ottomans as well
It's shame that feudals were selfcentered cunts. Tbilisi was destroyed to the ground....

meanwhile Imereti. Battle of Khresili (1757)

Spoiler

 

[Machabeli]

Spoiler

before he used same amount of army against Ottomans as well
It's shame that feudals were selfcentered cunts. Tbilisi was destroyed to the ground....

meanwhile Imereti. Battle of Khresili (1757)

Spoiler

True kartli-kakheti in Comparison to Imereti had a smaller army but the nobles abandoning Erekle was definitely a decisive blow to any hope for a Georgian victory.(that battle of Khresili tho)

 

[AirikrStrife]

Circassia must be stronger than its now, to resist Russian invasion in late game

Doens't matter if Circassia has 20 development or 40. Russia will conquer them if they feel like it once they get there. EUIV can't model the kind of wars like the russo-circassian or more notably in the beginning of the timeline, Skanderbeg. He might be a god-tier general but with 3-4k men he is whiped from the face of the earth within a few years. The kind of game we would have needed to accuratly capture the circass wars would be some sort of massive age of empires game.

Giving them OP ideas is not really a solution either as then they might get too expensionistic against georgia and the horde. Granted they could do a bit of a rework of their ideas. Perhaps replacing stability cost modifer with land attrition. Get land maneuver into the ideas. I guess those ar the best ways of representing guerilla warfare.

If they use sunni islam as syncretic faith/convert that could potentially get them the protection of the ottomans.

tbh religion bonuses are only fitting to Circassia, Chechens were mostly at defence mod, while Circassians were having offensive wars and they were decent expansionists.

The bonuses for having no syncretic faith is essentially making it easier to maintain a proportionally larger cavalry army. Which would work for Chechens aswell. Circassians woud by default not have those bonuses since they have orthodox syncretic faith. Orthodox bonuses are really bad though:
If they choose a syncretic faith they change the bonuses.

Orthodox:

• +10 Global settler increase
• +1 Tolerance of the true faith

Catholic:

• +1 Possible advisors
• +1 Diplomatic reputation

Sunni:

• +10% Trade efficiency
• +100% Chance of new heir

Shia:

• +5% Morale of armies
• −10% Advisor cost

 

[Reavici]

Doens't matter if Circassia has 20 development or 40. Russia will conquer them if they feel like it once they get there.

I can say same about any Russia's neighbouring countries lol

EUIV can't model the kind of wars like the russo-circassian

but it's really annoying that after besieging Adygea, Circassia is basically spliting into two parts. one tiled connected provinces are not effective to resist stronger enemies, you need to have some logistic and terrain advantages. also Circassia has not mountainious provinces... while alternatively they were known as "mountaineers"

Spoiler

I think little bit boos for Circassia would help them stay independent for a while. Even if someone declares war on them, they will not able to fully annex it at once. So if Russia manages to conquer it, Circassia will still have chance to get independence through rebellions. more provinces = more chance for effective rebellions.

Orthodox:

• +10 Global settler increase
• +1 Tolerance of the true faith

damn it. Orthodoxy is only concentrated on Russia's Siberian ambitions...
it could have better bonuses

 

[AirikrStrife]

Yes I forgot to bring that up, It is not really right that Circassia has steppe, maybe it's just a mistake but I feel the provinces should at least have been hills.

If all the provinces we propose be added, the one closer to the mountains should be, well, mountains (Abazinia, Alania, Ossetia) the other provinces some mix of hills and steppe. And then Circassia wouldn't be immediately split in two if they have their mountainous retreat. With some leader maneuaver, terrain bonuses and river laying around that's the best way to represent them I think. Should have fairly defensive battle ideas.

More countries (if they are still around) also makes for more tags to attack, more alliances and more castles to siege down. That's why I orginally decided to split up caucasus in 4, back in that patch I did the mod QQ liek a clockwork attacked Georgia within 2 years and vassalized. With more tags around it's not that simple

damn it. Orthodoxy is only concentrated on Russia's Siberian ambitions...
it could have better bonuses

Should be an extra incentive to ditch orthodox religion which they did historically.

Side note, achievment for circassia (or adighea/Kabardia): Saga of Nart, become a great power. (or maybe empire)

 

[Reavici]

AirikrStrife
Totally agree with you

 

[Delurker]

If we've moved on to discussing the north Caucasus, I wrote this a while ago and didn't post it anywhere:
Circassian event [Kabardian event]:

Zhebaghi Qezenoqwe

Triggers: year is at least 1710. Year is before 1750.

Zhebaghi Qezenoqwe was a great statesman of the Circassian [Kabardian] people. He modernised the customary law of Circassia, known as the Adyghe Xabze, and interpreted it in a much more tolerant way than had been done previously. He was renowned throughout Circassia for his wisdom and diplomacy.

Let him advise us!

>Gain a level 3 Statesman at half price

We are glad to have this man dispensing justice in our realm.

>Gain 10 admin, 30 diplo

He'd be in Kabardia IIRC (2197).

Also, what do you guys think about that other thread that's talking about giving homeland bonuses instead of HCC? Seems like it'd be ideal for the Northeast Caucasians in particular.

 

[AirikrStrife]

Yes I was thinking about bringing up flettingrains thread! Really good idea, but I'm not sure PDX wants to take such bonuses as NI's. As of now they they're tied to special mechanics.