Georgia Changes for Flavour and Accuracy

[Delurker]

I’d like to make some suggestions for how to improve Georgia in the game.


First I’d like to suggest some dynamic province names:

Spoiler

12 Sjælland - Zelandia


41 Koenigsberg – Kenigsbergi


50 Berlin – Berlini


85 Koeln - K'elni


97 Holland - Holandia


101 Genoa - Genua


102 Nice – Nitsa


110 Trent - Trento


112 Venezia – Venetsia


113 Ferrara - Ferara


115 Pisa - Piza


116 Firenze -Florentsia


118 Roma – Romi


121 Napoli – Neapoli


134 Wien - Vena


144 Epirus – Epiri?


146 Athens – Ateni


147 Thessaly – Tesalia?


148 Macedonia - Mak'edonia


149 Edirne – Adrianopoli


150 Tarnovo – Tirnovo?


151 Constantinople - (Istanbul = Stanbuli; Constantinople = K'onst'ant'inop'oli)


153 Pest – Peshti?


163 Crete - Kreta


183 Paris – P’arizi


236 London - Londoni


257 Warszawa – Varshava


262 Krakow - Krakovi


280 Kiev - Kievi


284 Crimea – Qirimi


286 Azov – Azovi (I think)


287 Kuban – Jiketi


(N.B. Kuban should have alternative name if Circassia takes it - Pshyze)


295 Moskva – Mosk’ovi


310 Novgorod – (Didi) Novgorodi – “Didi” means “The Great”, like “Velikiy Novgorod” in Russian


317 Hüdavendigar – Bursa (or Brusa)


319 Mentese – Menteshe?


320 Rhodes – Rodosi


321 Cyprus - K'vip'rosi


327 Adana - Adana


328 Sinop – Sinopi


329 Sivas - several options – Sebastia probably best


330 Trebizond - T'rap'izoni


331 Erzurum - Karnu-Kalaki is probably the best choice


365 Sinai - Sinai


379 Jerusalem – Ierusalimi


382 Damascus - Damask'i


410 Baghdad - Baghdadi


411 Mosul – Mosuli

Edit to add: 416 Tabriz - Tavrizi

418 Diyarbakir - Diarbakiri


419 Yerevan – Erivani/Erebuni


421 Shirvan = Shirvani


424 Ardabil - Ardebili


428 Teheran - Teirani


429 Isfahan – Ispaani


442 Bukhara - Bukhara


445 Merv - Mervi


454 Samarkand - Samarqandi


462 Mingrelia – Samegrelo - Mingrelia is the Russian name, not the Georgian one. EDIT: on further reading actually Odishi is an even better choice for the name of the province than Samegrelo, which was only really used in the 19th century. Definitely not Mingrelia though.


463 Circassia – Cherkezeti


464 Astrakhan - Ast'rakhani


475 Bashkortostan - Bashk'ireti


522 Delhi – Deli


1765 Sofia – Sofia


1773 Achaea - Akaia


1816 Beijing - P'ek'ini


1855 Sidon - Sidoni


2205 Nakhchivan – Nakhichevani


2208 Terek – Tergi


2218 Shiraz - Shirazi


2306 Mush - Mushi


2307 Van – Vani


2313 Antioch - Ant'iokia


2331 Jeddah – Jida


2348 Chios - Kiosi

Other changes:

My major source for all this is Edge of Empires: a History of Georgia by Donald Rayfield, which as far as I can tell is the most comprehensive study available in English. All the events apart from the baths one are featured in that text. Many of these ideas have been suggested before on these forums but I wanted to collate and polish them a bit, as well as back them up a bit more with sources so they seem more credible to those who don’t know this region very well.

The Darial Pass

The South Caucasus should have a break in the middle for the Darial Pass. It should link Kartli to Alania. The Darial Pass was very important in the history of the region. In the period roughly 1000-1400 the fact that the pass was controlled by Georgians or their allies (the Ossetians) was crucial in stopping Georgia being invaded by the steppe peoples to the North. Later, when Russia finally decisively invaded Georgia at the end of the 1700s, they did so through the Darial Pass. The current situation is ahistorical and encourages powers in the Northern Caucasus to attack via Abkhazia, which was famously difficult and swampy terrain in real life and so was only subdued by the Russian Empire later.

Darbazi

Very minor, but if possible it would be nice to change the “Call Diet” action in the estates tabs to “Call Darbazi”, since that was the name of the roughly equivalent Georgian institution (it was basically the King’s council.) For added flavour, it could increase the influence of the clergy as well as the nobility, as the key religious figures were also invited to darbazis.

Noble influence

A small change that I don’t know how easy it would be to modify, but the common thread for Georgia in this period is a strong and disloyal nobility. It would be good to have higher noble influence as a result, to make it harder to manage that estate. I think there’s a reasonable case for making Georgia a Feudal Monarchy rather than a Despotic Monarchy.

Events:

Currently, Georgia has no events of its own at all. I am aware that it's a bit difficult to create events for Georgia because it spent most of the period hopelessly split, with the West under the thumb of the Ottomans and the East the Persians. For this reason I've gone for cultural achievements because 1) they're not railroady and 2) they are not dependent on the overall geopolitical situation to the same extent. Here are my suggestions. I'm flexible on the effects they have - the aim is to provide flavour for a tag that has no flavour of its own beyond being Orthodox at the moment, not to turn Georgia into some kind of superpower.

Spoiler

Zaza Panaskerteli-Tsitsishvili’s Karabadini


Conditions:


Year = 1486 or so


http://www.medgeo.net/2009/12/25/სამკურნალო-წიგნი-კარაბად/ (kinda has picture – but could just use generic manuscript pic)


(In 1486) Eristavi Zaza Panaskerteli-Tsitsishvili wrote and compiled an important collection of Georgian medical knowledge. Drawing on Galenic and Sumerian ideas, as well as local remedies, the two volumes of the Karabadini describe methods of identifying diseases and how to examine patients. The Karabadini examines both physical and mental illnesses. Mental illnesses are said to be a product of physical issues in the brain, and therefore they require medication, not magic rituals. In Panaskerteli-Tsitsishvili’s opinion, it is necessary to heal the patient using accurate knowledge based on rational methods of treatment.


Our people shall benefit greatly from this work!


Effects:


+10% population growth (same as Medical Evolution event) for 500 days or whatever (maybe lower but for longer?)


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Sayat-Nova

Sayat-Nova was a renowned ashugh (troubadour) singer in the 18th century. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayat-Nova). He was ethnically Armenian but came from Tbilisi and King Erekle II of Georgia patronised him.


The event should fire from 1740 to 1765


"A wandering ashugh who calls himself Sayat-Nova has come to our court singing songs of love and merriment in all the languages of the South Caucasus. Shall we patronise him?"


YES > pay x money, gain prestige


NO > lose prestige


Note: Since Sayat-Nova was ethnically Armenian, it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that if an Armenian state had existed at the time he would have tried to gain patronage there, especially after being banished from Erekle II's court. Therefore I propose this event be assigned to Armenia as well. These days he seems to be more famous in Armenian circles than Georgian ones anyway, thanks to being in The Colour of Pomegranates.

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Year is at least 1675. Year is before 1715



Sulkhan-Saba Orbeliani

Sulkhan-Saba Orbeliani (1658-1725) was a Georgian polymath. He wrote Georgia's first dictionary, wrote a classic of Georgian literature called A Book of Wisdom and Lies when he was only in his 20s, and later was sent as a diplomat to France to try to create an alliance with Louis XIV (Louis died and it came to nothing.) He was also a Catholic monk for a while. Interesting guy. I want to leave the diplomatic stuff out of the blurb because it feels a bit railroady.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulkhan-Saba_Orbeliani


"Sulkhan-Saba Orbeliani (1658-1725) was a Georgian polymath. He wrote A Book of Wisdom and Lies (Tsigni Sibrdzne Sitsruisa), a classic of Georgian literature that uses fables to explore human folly and how to live a more moral life. He also wrote the first Georgian dictionary and was instrumental in the development of printing and literacy in the country."


We are fortunate to have such a talent in our realm.


Effects:

Gain 50 Admin

Gain 10 prestige

(I'd be tempted to have something about increasing institution spread speed here.)


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This event is not *quite* historical. Due to Eastern Georgia's subjugation to the Persians, there was rather little development of urban and social infrastructure there until Vakhtang VI. However, in the game Georgia would almost inevitably have to be independent or they wouldn't be being played, so I think there's a case to be made that they would have invested in this area if they'd had the wherewithal. And there is historical evidence that the baths were being used more by common people in the 17th century. And the oldest still existing bathhouse is from 1726, so well within the timeframe. (http://www.eurasianet.org/node/64912)


Year is at least 1650.


Develop the Tbilisi Baths

We Georgians have been bathing in public baths since the days of the Roman Empire. Indeed our capital Tbilisi was built on hot springs by Vakhtang Gorgasali in the 5th century CE. Since then, we have enjoyed the warm sulphurous waters there. Now, under the cultural influence of the Islamic Empires to our south, the common people and our soldiers have become ever more keen to wash their cares away. We should build more bathhouses to satisfy public demand and show our munificence.


Yes, let us provide for our people in this way.

Pay x money, gain 10 prestige.


No, our people have no need of such amusements.

Lose 5 prestige.

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Growth of Armenian Diaspora

Triggers: Armenia does not exist

Year is at least 1600

“Our fellow Christians the Armenians have begun settling in our fair land. They are bringing prosperity to our capital, but some of our people are uneasy at the presence of so many foreigners in our midst.”


Let them stay!

+2 base tax, +1 unrest in Kartli


We have no need of these interlopers!

Lose 5 prestige?


Context: there were a lot of Armenians in Tbilisi and they actually formed the vast majority of the population in the 19th century.

Finally, I’d like to discuss Georgia’s National Ideas.

Spoiler

Georgia’s current National Ideas:

Traditions:

Traditions:

+50% Hostile core-creation cost on us

−10% Shock damage received



Chance of new heir.png Bagrationi Dynasty

+50% Chance of new heir



Improve relations.png Georgian Isolation

+30% Improve relations



Construction cost.png Restoration of Fortresses and Churches

−10% Construction cost



Income from vassals.png Georgian Protectorates

+20% Income from vassals



Stability cost modifier.png Samouravo Counties

−10% Stability cost modifier



Manpower recovery speed.png Sadrosho Districts

+20% Manpower recovery speed



Diplomatic reputation.png Georgian Embassies

+1 Diplomatic reputation



Idea bonus.png Ambition:

−20% Infantry cost



My comments:

There are a couple of these that stick out as being unfitting. First is Georgian Protectorates. Simply put, during the time period of the game, Georgia basically never had any vassals so I have no idea why this is part of the National Ideas. The Georgia of the Golden Age had some vassal states e.g. Ganja for brief periods, the Ossetians/Alans were kind of vassals for a bit in the same time period, and there was the historic relationship to Trebizond. But Trebizond is the only one of these which might be applicable in game terms from 1444 onwards and they only existed until 1461! The constituent parts of Georgia were vassals of other powers (the Ottomans and the Persians) but that does not make this idea make any more sense. I note that I’m not the only person on these forums to have made this point (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...erhaul-suggestion.979905/page-3#post-22755127).

The other one of these that I’m not keen on is Samouravo Counties. Although these were indeed created by Giorgi VIII/I of Kakhetia in the late 1400s, 1) that was only in part of the territory of Georgia and more importantly 2) Georgia afterwards, particularly in the West, was an absolute nest of snakes basically until King Vakhtang VI or so, so reducing stability cost really doesn’t fit the times. (Referring to a slightly more restricted period, Rayfield says “The story of western Georgia between the death of King Alexandre [i.e. 1660] and the accession of King Solomon I [i.e. 1752] is a confusing vortex of internecine war, depositions and restorations, abduction, adultery, mutilation, murder and treachery. The only consolation for the student of Imeretian-Gurian-Mingrelian history is that it was even more terrible to endure in reality than to read about in retrospect.”) Plus to be honest -10% stability cost modifier is pretty boring and limited.


Instead I would like to suggest some alternatives that seem much more suitable. The first of these is an idea for reduced war exhaustion. Again, this is not an original idea on these forums http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...erhaul-suggestion.979905/page-3#post-22755127). One of the key threads of Georgian history in this period is that they just kept fighting and resisting (particularly the Muslim empires – not Russia quite so much), even though they usually lost in the end. King Teimuraz I spent 50 years resisting the Persians in the first half of the 1600s, losing and regaining his throne repeatedly in the process. Later, the 300 Aragvians would become famous for their last stand (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Hundred_Aragvians). When Georgians weren’t fighting the empires that had vassalised them they were fighting one another. The principalities of Western Georgia in particular fought each other over and over again in this period.


Resistance to Foreign Domination

“In spite of our small size compared to the mighty empires around us, we defend our land against all-comers. Our tenacity in the face of adversity has kept the idea of Georgia alive even through our darkest hours as a nation.”

-0.02 monthly war exhaustion

(If anyone can come up with a better name for this idea I’m all ears. I would call it Legacy of the 300 Aragvians but since they come up at the end of the period rather than the beginning it would seem a bit odd.)


The second is something relating to Georgia’s Orthodox faith. Georgia was a very early adopter of Christianity (they tend to say the second after Armenia but I understand there’s a bit of dispute about that) and Orthodoxy has remained a central part of Georgian identity since the 300s. Indeed, in the tenth century, Giorgi Merchule defined Georgia as anywhere where Mass was said in Georgian. Also, unlike say the Russians, who had a variety of sects split off from the main church, as far as I know this never really happened in Georgia. Moreover, their Orthodoxy was crucial to their foreign policy in this period. They kept trying to draw closer to Russia because Russia, unlike the Ottomans and the Persians, was an Orthodox power. Even when some of the rulers of Kakheti, Kartli and Imereti converted to Islam, this was always under strong pressure from the imperial power and usually just for show. Samtskhe was a bit of an exception admittedly, and became rather Muslim under the Ottomans.

So my suggestion for this would be:

St Nino’s Cross

“In the 4th century, St Nino cured Queen Nana of Iberia of a mortal illness. As a result, her husband, King Mirian, made Christianity our state religion. Since that time, we Georgians have tightly held on to our Christian faith. As one of the first Christian nations, it is crucial for us to maintain our faith against all others. May we one day once again have the strength to aid our brethren in Jerusalem!”

Tolerance of the True Faith +2

OR

Something that increases the new Patriarch Authority from Third Rome.

(Note: once again, this is not an original idea: (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...e-of-new-effects.1031640/page-2#post-23034910))

Note: St Nino was the one who converted Georgia to Christianity. Her cross, made of vine branches, is a symbol of Georgian Christianity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grapevine_cross). The Georgians set up a monastery in Jerusalem long before 1444 but had increasingly little power to protect their clergy and so on, hence the last line.

I would suggest making this an early idea, possibly even a tradition, but certainly one of the first 2 ideas.


There are four other elements of Georgian history that I think would be particularly appropriate for National Ideas, but I haven’t totally fleshed them out yet. Those are the history as being possibly the birthplace of wine; Vakhtang VI’s code the dasturlamali (a late idea which would reduce unrest in some way) and relatedly the institution of serfdom, or patronqmoba, which was extremely persistent and created a society of nobles and peasants; and something relating to fort maintenance (there are castles all over Georgia, and in particular Svaneti deserves a mention as a place where every single family had their own defensive tower https://www.georgianjournal.ge/pictures/image2/5498601486b096ab6031b59ef9f73764.jpg.) As for which ideas would be eliminated, I know many people find Hostile Core Creation Cost boring, although I understand the gameplay reasons for why that might be necessary. Controversially, since it seems like a bit of a nerf, I’d be tempted to get rid of one of the two diplomatic ideas. Georgia absolutely did send out emissaries throughout the period, but they were notably unsuccessful in gaining support from larger powers, whether they be the Pope, France, or indeed Russia under Peter the Great, who promised support and didn’t show up in 1722. The one exception is the Traktat they signed with Russia under Catherine the Great, which the Russians promptly broke and led to them being annexed. I’m also not particularly keen on the Ambition being reduced infantry cost but I don’t have a strong idea of what to replace it with.

There are obviously lots of more fundamental changes that could be made to Georgia too (a complicated event chain to simulate its breakup in the late 1400s, the introduction of Ossetian and Abkhaz cultures to the game, and so on) but this is long enough already. Thank you if you’ve read to the end. I don’t speak Georgian sadly (although I do speak some Russian) so I’m sure I’ve made plenty of mistakes - please pick me up on them.
I'd like to credit the participants on these threads: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/rome-by-the-euxine.980305/ https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ion-comprehensive-overhaul-suggestion.979905/ as being particularly helpful.

 

[Machabeli]

Oh I see! Well then yeah you're right. Or it could be owned by nobody - either would be fine.

What do you mean by nobody? like you want it to be its own tag?

 

[Reavici]

I really like the way Imereti is shaped and that Adjara looks great.

Adjara is really nice additional province, it was part of Guria and Samtskhe in early times but later annexed by Ottomans, since northern parts of Guria survived from Ottoman invasion unlike southern Guria (Adjara), separated Guria and Adjara regions are pretty accurate to represent. also its notable to mention that Russian empire made out of Adjara area, new administrative entinity called Batumi oblast.

Spoiler

recommended to read:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Adjara#Adjara_under_Ottoman_rule

Guria must be inluded to western Georgia area while Adjara must be grouped with Samtskhe and Tao as part of Southern Georgia area.

Delurkel

Yeah I guess. Levan II Dadiani tried to take over Imereti as a whole though so I'd read Odishi as being opportunistic and realising they usually didn't have the military might to take over rather than totally opposed to the idea of uniting Georgia. And the princes of Guria were always too weak to have got anywhere near uniting even Imereti. I don't know if it matters too much in the game either way - from what I understand forming Georgia would require owning certain provinces (presumably at least Tbilisi) anyway.

indeed Odishi was one of the strongest principality in western Georgia

Spoiler

during the reign of Levan II Dadiani (1611-1657), the Principality’s power grew to the point where the tables were turned, and Imereti narrowed escaped military subjugation to Odishi on several occasions. Externally, Levan II enjoyed a status equal to that of the Kings of the Georgian Kingdoms of Kartli, Kakheti, and Imereti. In one letter to the Tsar of Russia, he even referred to himself as the King of Western Georgia, even though neither he nor any of his successors had any formal grounds for claiming the title of “King.”

quote from http://dadiani.si.edu/houseofdadiani.html

Guria was not that weak, Guriels were always rebelious against Imereti and they even managed to take over Imeretian and Odishi throne for several times. Guria and Odishi were often allied against Imereti and other enemies. after defeat of allied Mingrelian and Gurian forces (1533) in Jiqeti by Circassian tribes, Guria temporary became dependency of Imereti, but later Rostom Guriel (1534-1566)managed to get full political independence. he also managed to incorporate Adjara and Lazeti to Guria. during XVII century Guria had possible negotations with Rzeczpospolita (which proves Sigismund III Vasa's coins found in several Gurian villages) and Zaporozhian cossacks. Cossacks were using Gurian little ports to raid Ottoman Empire, along with whom Guriels liberated Gonio fortress (located in modern southern Adjara). even today the word "Kadzakh" aka Cossack is synonym to brave in Mingrelian and Gurian dialect.

forming of Georgian Kingdom must require Kutaisi and Tbilisi provinces most importantly, tbh historically Georgia was created after union of Tao-Klarjeti (roughly Samtskhe) and Abkhazia (western Georgia, where Kutaisi is located), Tbilisi was liberated only during reign of David IV. Tbilisi was important but not that necessary. I think forming of Georgia must require two of the three areas of Georgia either Kutaisi and Samtskhe or Tbilisi and Samtskhe. or just all it's core provinces.

Yeah - Donald Rayfield actually says that Erekle II had a possible chance to become Shah of Persia (presumably incorporating Kartli-Kakheti) but uniting K-K with western Georgia was never really possible because

Erekle even had chance to liberate Samtskhe, but this happaned:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Aspindza

As for adding Odishi, Abkhazia and Guria, I'm semi-supportive to adding Odishi in particular since they were very powerful at times and had some interesting and colourful princes, but 1) you have to draw the line somewhere, or we'll wind up with a tag for the Duchy of Aragvi and 2) it runs into the vassal of a vassal problem - maybe EU4 should just allow that but at the moment Odishi etc. could only be a revolter tag at the start unless you start with Georgia already totally broken up, which is pretty dubious historically as we've discussed. I'm very keen for the devs to put in the Levan I Dadiani, Levan II Dadiani and Mariam Dadiani events in particular precisely so that Odishi gets some representation.

Also, in terms of available sources, I have a family tree of the Gurielis, Dadianis and Shervashidzes, but I don't have anything for Svaneti and I know very very little about the characters of the Gurelis or the Shervashidzes in particular so their stats would probably just have to be random. Likewise I couldn't even begin to write any DHEs for them apart from *possibly* more for Odishi. Not saying the information isn't out there, mind you (although I don't think there's anything in English.)

both Odishi and Guria are important tags, i suggest you to do some research about Guria. Duchy of Aragvi is not really needed

COA of Guria

Spoiler

COA of Mingrelia

Spoiler

 

[Machabeli]

Adjara is really nice additional province, it was part of Guria and Samtskhe in early times but later annexed by Ottomans, since northern parts of Guria survived from Ottoman invasion unlike southern Guria (Adjara), separated Guria and Adjara regions are pretty accurate to represent. also its notable to mention that Russian empire made out of Adjara area, new administrative entinity called Batumi oblast.

Guria must be inluded to western Georgia area while Adjara must be grouped with Samtskhe and Tao as part of Southern Georgia area.

Delurkel


indeed Odishi was one of the strongest principality in western Georgia

Spoiler

during the reign of Levan II Dadiani (1611-1657), the Principality’s power grew to the point where the tables were turned, and Imereti narrowed escaped military subjugation to Odishi on several occasions. Externally, Levan II enjoyed a status equal to that of the Kings of the Georgian Kingdoms of Kartli, Kakheti, and Imereti. In one letter to the Tsar of Russia, he even referred to himself as the King of Western Georgia, even though neither he nor any of his successors had any formal grounds for claiming the title of “King.”

quote from http://dadiani.si.edu/houseofdadiani.html

Guria was not that weak, Guriels were always rebelious against Imereti and they even managed to take over Imeretian and Odishi throne for several times. Guria and Odishi were often allied against Imereti and other enemies. after defeat of allied Mingrelian and Gurian forces (1533) in Jiqeti by Circassian tribes, Guria temporary became dependency of Imereti, but later Rostom Guriel (1534-1566)managed to get full political independence. he also managed to incorporate Adjara and Lazeti to Guria. during XVII century Guria had possible negotations with Rzeczpospolita (which proves Sigismund III Vasa's coins found in several Gurian villages) and Zaporozhian cossacks. Cossacks were using Gurian little ports to raid Ottoman Empire, along with whom Guriels liberated Gonio fortress (located in modern southern Adjara). even today the word "Kadzakh" aka Cossack is synonym to brave in Gurian dialect.

forming of Georgian Kingdom must require Kutaisi and Tbilisi provinces most importantly, tbh historically Georgia was created after union of Tao-Klarjeti (roughly Samtskhe) and Abkhazia (western Georgia, where Kutaisi is located), Tbilisi was liberated only during reign of David IV. Tbilisi was important but not that necessary. I think forming of Georgia must require two of the three areas of Georgia either Kutaisi and Samtskhe or Tbilisi and Samtskhe. or just all it's core provinces.



Erekle even had chance to liberate Samtskhe, but this happaned:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Aspindza



both Odishi and Guria are important tags, i suggest you to do some research about Guria. Duchy of Aragvi is not really needed

COA of Guria

Spoiler

COA of Mingrelia

Spoiler

ძალიან მომწონს შენი პოსტი, აშკარად ჩემზე ბევრად მონდომებული ხარ ამ საქმეში.

 

[Machabeli]

In your opinion should Guria and Odishi tags have their own national ideas?

 

[Reavici]

Machabeli
not really sure about that. Guria and Odishi could have similar generic national ideas since they were coastal principalities unlike kingdoms of Imereti, Kartli and Kakheti. at least Samtskhe definetely deserves unique national ideas

 

[Machabeli]

Machabeli
not really sure about that. Guria and Odishi could have similar generic national ideas since they were coastal principalities unlike kingdoms of Imereti, Kartli and Kakheti. at least Samtskhe definetely deserves unique national ideas

Generic ideas? like for example?

 

[Delurker]

Adjara is really nice additional province, it was part of Guria and Samtskhe in early times but later annexed by Ottomans, since northern parts of Guria survived from Ottoman invasion unlike southern Guria (Adjara), separated Guria and Adjara regions are pretty accurate to represent. also its notable to mention that Russian empire made out of Adjara area, new administrative entinity called Batumi oblast.

Delurkel


indeed Odishi was one of the strongest principality in western Georgia

Spoiler

during the reign of Levan II Dadiani (1611-1657), the Principality’s power grew to the point where the tables were turned, and Imereti narrowed escaped military subjugation to Odishi on several occasions. Externally, Levan II enjoyed a status equal to that of the Kings of the Georgian Kingdoms of Kartli, Kakheti, and Imereti. In one letter to the Tsar of Russia, he even referred to himself as the King of Western Georgia, even though neither he nor any of his successors had any formal grounds for claiming the title of “King.”

quote from http://dadiani.si.edu/houseofdadiani.html

Guria was not that weak, Guriels were always rebelious against Imereti and they even managed to take over Imeretian and Odishi throne for several times. Guria and Odishi were often allied against Imereti and other enemies. after defeat of allied Mingrelian and Gurian forces (1533) in Jiqeti by Circassian tribes, Guria temporary became dependency of Imereti, but later Rostom Guriel (1534-1566)managed to get full political independence. he also managed to incorporate Adjara and Lazeti to Guria. during XVII century Guria had possible negotations with Rzeczpospolita (which proves Sigismund III Vasa's coins found in several Gurian villages) and Zaporozhian cossacks. Cossacks were using Gurian little ports to raid Ottoman Empire, along with whom Guriels liberated Gonio fortress (located in modern southern Adjara). even today the word "Kadzakh" aka Cossack is synonym to brave in Gurian dialect.

forming of Georgian Kingdom must require Kutaisi and Tbilisi provinces most importantly, tbh historically Georgia was created after union of Tao-Klarjeti (roughly Samtskhe) and Abkhazia (western Georgia, where Kutaisi is located), Tbilisi was liberated only during reign of David IV. Tbilisi was important but not that necessary. I think forming of Georgia must require two of the three areas of Georgia either Kutaisi and Samtskhe or Tbilisi and Samtskhe. or just all it's core provinces.

Do you think Samtskhe is essential? My thought was Kartli+Tbilisi+Kakheti (province)+Imereti (province). But yeah historically Tbilisi is less essential - could be just Kartli+Kakheti+Imereti? Or am I overrating the importance of Kakheti?

Erekle even had chance to liberate Samtskhe, but this happaned:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Aspindza



both Odishi and Guria are important tags, i suggest you to do some research about Guria. Duchy of Aragvi is not really needed

COA of Guria

Spoiler

COA of Mingrelia

Spoiler

Hey fair enough - I defer to your greater knowledge. Sorry for messing up the history about the Battle of Aspindza. I have to say the reason I suggested that only Samtskhe would have different NIs from the generic Georgian ones is that I was really struggling to come up with more than 2 or 3 ideas even for Kakheti or Imereti, but if you can think of some NIs for anywhere else please suggest them - it looks like it's a priority for the devs so you might even get them into the patch even now.

 

[Delurker]

What do you mean by nobody? like you want it to be its own tag?

I suppose it could be. But having it as part of the proposed Odishi is okay too and also simpler.

 

[Machabeli]

I suppose it could be. But having it as part of the proposed Odishi is okay too and also simpler.

Yeah i do support Odishi and Guria tags.

 

[Reavici]

Delurker

Do you think Samtskhe is essential? My thought was Kartli+Tbilisi+Kakheti (province)+Imereti (province). But yeah historically Tbilisi is less essential - could be just Kartli+Kakheti+Imereti? Or am I overrating the importance of Kakheti?

It's weird but during middle ages phenomenon of Georgian statehood was associated only with Bagrationi dynasty, who ruled over Georgia for thousand years. Georgians were loyal towards them and considered them as the only legitimate ruler of Georgia.

since in X-XI century Bagrationi's moved to Abkhazia (synonym to western Georgia, it was later replaced by the new term Imereti — Imier-eti — "the land located on another side") and later to Kartli (eastern Georgia — also known as Amier-eti — "the land located on our side"), southern Georgia (birthplace of Georgian identity) lost its importance. somehow in XI century, Jakeli's were granted possesions over Samtskhe by the king of Georgia. time by time they became most influential aristocracy in Georgia and absorbed neighbouring disitricts. after Mongol invasion, Georgia collapsed and it was basically divided into three parts, Samtskhe as the direct vassal of Mongols (1266-1334) and western and eastern Georgia, both ruled by Bagrationi's. unlike Jakeli's both of Kartli and Imereti had legitimate claims over United Georgia. somehow in XIV century George V the Briliant of Kartli ("The Shadow King of Tbilisi"), managed to restore it's authority over western Georgia and Samtskhe, whose ruler was appointed as Atabeg of Samtskhe. United Georgia didn't lasted forever and it collapsed again after well organised constant rebellions led by local aristocracies. Samtskhe had brief independnece and later got absorbed by Ottomans, whose rulers became governors of Childir Eyalet.

that was little trip through Georgian history to make some conclusions out of it.

Samtskhe has ideological and cultural importance for Georgia, plus Bagrationi's originate from that area. even though, according to medieval Georgian logic having cores over Imereti, Kartli-Tbilisi and Kakheti must be requirement.

I have another suggestion, which seems unrealistic since there doesn't exist such mechanics in EU4 as far as i know

1) it must be impossible for any other dynasties or even member of Bagrationi family form United Georgia if other Bagrationi's are already ruler of any existing (Georgian) tag.
2) if rulers of X georgian tag became other dynasty member instead of Bagrationi, X georgian tag ruled by Bagrationi should have access to form united Georgia.
3) any other X dynasty can form Georgia if Bagrationi's are not holding any X georgian tag.

Hey fair enough - I defer to your greater knowledge. Sorry for messing up the history about the Battle of Aspindza. I have to say the reason I suggested that only Samtskhe would have different NIs from the generic Georgian ones is that I was really struggling to come up with more than 2 or 3 ideas even for Kakheti or Imereti, but if you can think of some NIs for anywhere else please suggest them - it looks like it's a priority for the devs so you might even get them into the patch even now.

tbh I'm not good at NI suggestions, i'm more concentrated on representation of provinces and tags. it will be kinda biased to suggest some NI's which will break game balance. so let mod's work on it. btw I appricate your works on Georgian NI's, they are pretty cool. you could suggest NI's about suggested tags, i can correct you if it's necesary

 

[Machabeli]

Delurker


It's weird but during middle ages phenomenon of Georgian statehood was associated only with Bagrationi dynasty, who ruled over Georgia for thousand years. Georgians were loyal towards them and considered them as the only legitimate ruler of Georgia.

since in X-XI century Bagrationi's moved to Abkhazia (synonym to western Georgia, it was later replaced by the new term Imereti — Imier-eti — "the land located on another side") and later to Kartli (eastern Georgia — also known as Amier-eti — "the land located on our side"), southern Georgia (birthplace of Georgian identity) lost its importance. somehow in XI century, Jakeli's were granted possesions over Samtskhe by the king of Georgia. time by time they became most influential aristocracy in Georgia and absorbed neighbouring disitricts. after Mongol invasion, Georgia collapsed and it was basically divided into three parts, Samtskhe as the direct vassal of Mongols (1266-1334) and western and eastern Georgia, both ruled by Bagrationi's. unlike Jakeli's both of Kartli and Imereti had legitimate claims over United Georgia. somehow in XIV century George V the Briliant of Kartli ("The Shadow King of Tbilisi"), managed to restore it's authority over western Georgia and Samtskhe, whose ruler was appointed as Atabeg of Samtskhe. United Georgia didn't lasted forever and it collapsed again after well organised constant rebellions led by local aristocracies. Samtskhe had brief independnece and later got absorbed by Ottomans, whose rulers became governors of Childir Eyalet.

that was little trip through Georgian history to make some conclusions out of it.

Samtskhe has ideological and cultural importance for Georgia, plus Bagrationi's originate from that area. even though, according to medieval Georgian logic having cores over Imereti, Kartli-Tbilisi and Kakheti must be requirement.

I have another suggestion, which seems unrealistic since there doesn't exist such mechanics in EU4 as far as i know

1) it must be impossible for any other dynasties or even member of Bagrationi family form United Georgia if other Bagrationi's are already ruler of any existing (Georgian) tag.
2) if rulers of X georgian tag became other dynasty member instead of Bagrationi, X georgian tag ruled by Bagrationi should have access to form united Georgia.
3) any other X dynasty can form Georgia if Bagrationi's are not holding any X georgian tag.



tbh I'm not good at NI suggestions, i'm more concentrated on representation of provinces and tags. it will be kinda biased to suggest some NI's which will break game balance. so let mod's work on it. btw I appricate your works on Georgian NI's, they are pretty cool. you could suggest NI's about suggested tags, i can correct you if it's necesary

Yet again your posts never cease to amaze me. nice information m8.

 

[Reavici]

Machabeli
thanks for appreciating my contribution bro

as I already mentioned Kartli, Kakheti and Imereti had claims over United Georgian throne. Dev's replaced Kartli by formable Georgia tag, historically kings of Imereti were considering themselves to be true claimants of Georgian throne and had goal to Unite Georgia but since there already exist United Georgia there is no point to play as Imereti and it's bit ahistoric.

I highly hope Dev's will fix that mistake and reduce current Georgia to Kartli tag

Georgian ideas

Spoiler

Georgian natonal ideas are Incompatible to Samtskhe.

* Bagrationi dynasty
Samtskhe was ruled by Jakeli's
* Georgian protectorates
Samtskhe barely had protectorates, except influence over Trebizond Empire
* Georgian embassies
I don't remember Samtskhe having embassies abroad

and little offtop again.

I wonder (((who))) is behind Delurker. could you tell us what's your real nationality Delurker?

 

[Machabeli]

Machabeli
thanks for appreciating my contribution bro

as I already mentioned Kartli, Kakheti and Imereti had claims over United Georgian throne. Dev's replaced Kartli by formable Georgia tag, historically kings of Imereti were considering themselves to be true claimants of Georgian throne and had goal to Unite Georgia but since there already exist United Georgia there is no point to play as Imereti and it's bit ahistoric.

I highly hope Dev's will fix that mistake and reduce current Georgia to Kartli tag

Georgian ideas

Spoiler

Georgian natonal ideas are Incompatible to Samtskhe.

* Bagrationi dynasty
Samtskhe was ruled by Jakeli's
* Georgian protectorates
Samtskhe barely had protectorates, except influence over Trebizond Empire
* Georgian embassies
I don't remember Samtskhe having embassies abroad

and little offtop again.

I wonder (((who))) is behind Delurker. could you tell us what's your real nationality Delurker?

Imo i think it would be far better to just have united Georgia at the start.

 

[Reavici]

Machabeli

Imo i think it would be far better to just have united Georgia at the start.

Delurker had idea about country disaster event which would fragmentate united Georgia into several pieces, it would be cool to implement it in the game

-------------

I made map according to late game purposes. even though Russia annexed Ottoman lands out of game timeline period, pdx gives us oportunity to enjoy alternatie history, where Russia annexes Ottoman lands earlier than it happaned irl. representation of frontiers of two geopolitical powers such as Ottoman Empire and Russia are very important. I tried to fit borders to early historic context as well. so it will be aestethic as localy as on global terms.

I touched only Georgia and it's frontiers

Russian administrative division of south Caucasus

Spoiler

suggested new districts

Spoiler

according to Treaty of San Stefano Ottoman Empire lost to Russia Achara, Meskheti, part of Tao and Kars.

Turkish dynamic names for each of them:
Achara - Acaristan
Meskheti - Ahiska
Tao - Oltu
Kars - Kars

Russian dynamic names:
Achara - Batum
Meskheti - Akhaltsikh
Tao - Olty
Kars - Kars

total areas: 5
western Georgia: Abkhazia, Odishi, Guria, Svanetiand Imereti
eastern Georgia: Kartli, Kakheti, Tbilisi and Mtianeti
south Georgia (?) : Achara, Meskheti, Kars and Tao
Armenia (?) : Yerevan, Nakhchivan, Ganja and Melikates
Shirvan: Shaki, Shamakhi, Dagestan and Shirvan

new provinces:
province name - capital
Svaneti - Mestia (?)
Achara - Batumi
Kars - Kars
Mtianeti - Ananuri


1801-1813

Spoiler

Mingrelia and Guria tag existed even after annexation of Kartli-Kakheti (1801) and Imereti (1810) by Russian Empire.
they were both allied to Russia and fought along them in Caucasian Wars

Spoiler

 

[Delurker]

A couple more quick historical advisors:

advisor = {
advisor_id = 3003
name = "Nikoloz Cholokashvili" #Diplomat and clergyman for Kakheti and Odishi
location = 2203 #Kakheti
discount = no
skill = 2
type = diplomat
date = 1625.1.1 #40 years old, first sent on diplomatic mission
death_date = 1658.1.1
}
advisor = {
advisor_id = 3004
name = "Beri Egnatashvili" #Scholar for Vakhtang VI - supervised the creation of a new history, Akhali Kartlis Tskhovreba
location = ? #Tbilisi
discount = no
skill = 2
type = natural_scientist
date = 1720.1.1 #unknown years old, possible date when first put to work
death_date = 1761.1.1 #approximate death date
}

 

[Delurker]

Machabeli
thanks for appreciating my contribution bro

as I already mentioned Kartli, Kakheti and Imereti had claims over United Georgian throne. Dev's replaced Kartli by formable Georgia tag, historically kings of Imereti were considering themselves to be true claimants of Georgian throne and had goal to Unite Georgia but since there already exist United Georgia there is no point to play as Imereti and it's bit ahistoric.

I highly hope Dev's will fix that mistake and reduce current Georgia to Kartli tag

Georgian ideas

Spoiler

Georgian natonal ideas are Incompatible to Samtskhe.

* Bagrationi dynasty
Samtskhe was ruled by Jakeli's
* Georgian protectorates
Samtskhe barely had protectorates, except influence over Trebizond Empire
* Georgian embassies
I don't remember Samtskhe having embassies abroad

and little offtop again.

I wonder (((who))) is behind Delurker. could you tell us what's your real nationality Delurker?

Well Georgia's national ideas are barely compatible with Georgia, to be fair - God knows why Georgian Protectorates was chosen as an NI.
Haha I like being mysterious - I'll PM you my nationality if you want though.

 

[Machabeli]

Damn! these are some nice maps.

 

[Reavici]

Machabeli
please hide maps under spoiler :v

and yeah those are really great maps.

I made another map based on first map posted by you to clear out what territories exactly mountainous provinces of Kartli and Kakheti comprised. (blue lines)

Spoiler

red line- country borders
red dots - occupied territory

It would be cool if those two mountain regions were merged into one and formed Mtianeti region


some history of Ossetia

Spoiler

In 1299, Gori was captured by the Alan tribesmen fleeing the Mongol conquest of their original homeland in the North Caucasus. The Georgian king George V recovered the town in 1320, pushing the Alans back over the Caucasus mountains.

The wars of Timur in the 14th century inflicted the final blow on Alania and decimated its population. Those who survived being killed or enslaved by the Timur's armies.

on the remnants of Kingdom of Alania, Circassia arose...

Prince Inal Teghen (Tighwen), one of the descendants of Abdun-Khan, assumed the reins of power in Kabarda in the 15th century. He was brave, prudent and generous. During his reign many people submitted to his rule and chose to become part of his state (including Ossetians who were persecuted under Kabardian rule and fled to neighbouring provinces). In 1509, he invaded Imeretia and subsequently routed an army of Western Georgians. He managed to unite all of Circassia as well as Abkhazia into one state, but split up again into separate feudal principalities after his death.

until Russia's arrival province of Alania was named as Greater Kabardia

 

[AirikrStrife]

This is a copy of a post in my "Rome by the euxine thread". I feel it is better to keep one thread going on the caucasus instead of popping between various ones. This is a reply to Reavicis post in the thread.

On the topic of Abkhazia and Abkhazians. My main source for history in the region is James Forsyth's "The Caucasus: A History" published by the Cambridge university press in 2013.

In it a sub-chapter is dedicated to the Abkhazians and discussing wheather they did or did not originate in "Abkhazia" (pages 157-166 pis particularly about this debatte)

Forsyth's argues for the Abkhazes of history to be ancestors of the modern Abkhaz people.

He points to the lack of sources in the region making it very hard to assert anything with certainty. According to his book, Vakhusti Bagrationi confirms a seperate Abkhaz ethnic group alongside western Georgians living in Abkhazia (i.e. Not including Abkhazes as western Georgia).

To some of the points used against Abkhaz statehood, for example the use of Georgian language in church or in the political sphere it isn't strange at all that a country uses a high language that is not the native one (the usage of Latin in medieval europe, church slavonic, etc).

To make a historical paralell to a state hat might have gone through a similiar process, the grand duchy of Lithuania. Lithuania started as a consolidation of baltic tribes and then quickly expanded into the territory of old disintegating kievan rus, soon having a majority slavic/ruthenian/belarusian population and since a lot of the expansion had been peaceful (by means of diplomacy, marriages and protection) the local nobility was kept largely intact and became a significant part of the Lithuanian state. While latin was used as the language for religion and diplomacy, ruthenian increasingly came to dominate the lithuanian court.
In 1385 Poland joined the grand duchy of Lithuania by marriages into a personal union, in which poland and polish as the culturaly and politically superior party in the union would be the dominant language of both countries. By the 18th century Lithuanian had been greatly reduced as a language, with the nobility having switched entirely to slavic languages and the population of several major cities (most notably Vilnius) were majority polish.


So while Lithuanian statehood originates from 13th century the lithuanian language itself is not attested in writing until the early 16th century. This is not because we lack written texts from the grand duchy but simply because they are all written in other languages. This is not an uncommon process, today we take writing for granted while in fact it is a very complex innovation. Using georgian as the language of writing by abkhazians would only be natural. And to consider the existence of an Abkhaz language and political presence in Georgia, according to Forsyth and other sources mentioning this, the nickname of Queen Tamar's son and Later king, George IV Lasha, is Lasha an Abkhazian word.

Looking at the link you posted earlier: http://www.cyxymu.info/2010/04/abkhazia-unfalsified-history.html?m=1
I have several things to contend with it. There are a lot of doubtful facts presented. Notably it is a politically motivated work. Likewise most works about this area has due to the conflict of the past decades been marred by political and nationalistic biases. Wheather pro-georgian, pro-abkhazian or mediating between them.
The writer also uses modern concepts of nationality and identity when he argues his thesis, which have doubtfull validity.

A more mediate work I found just recently is this excerpt from a 20 year old book, http://www.conflicts.rem33.com/images/abkhazia/Czerwon_E.htm
Arguing for a symbiotic Georgian-Abkhaz statehood and identity during the middle ages.


Regarding Prince Inal, I have had a very hard time with this guy. Wikipedia states he is "semi-mythical" and most works I tried to read about Circassian history avoids him.
This book for example about circassians with a pro-circass bias, https://books.google.se/books?id=eE...ce=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
Only mentions Prince Inal in passing as a great Kabardin lord but does not dvelve into the history of the figure. Furthermore it looks at Genoese sources from this time which does not mention Prince Inal or a unified state but rather various lords the genoese had contact with


Another book I read excerpts on https://books.google.se/books?id=1N...ce=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
does also consider the figure with care.

Actually from those books I came of to be of the mind that Circassia should actully be split into a western (Adyghe) and eastern (Kabarin) state.

As north caucasus existed in a semi-nomadic, tribal realm where westphalian state models can't be applied properly it's not possible to make perfect represenations of this in game, even if enough sources did exist. The relationship between Kabardin and the people of higher alttitudes (Karachay, Balkars, Alans/Ossetians and to some extent Nakh people) is complicated. I more or less abandoned the prospct of a seperate Alania as it wouldn't work with the current PDX policies.

To not keep flooding the forum with different threads. I will make a copy of this post into Delurkers thread and I sugest any replies are left there.

 

[AirikrStrife]

In regards of having Abkhazian culture, as I believe Abkhazian as a term originates with a people speaking a northwest caucasian language, and when had a fluid meaning throughout history. It could of course be concluded that Abkhaz were merged with Georgians to the degree that they ought to be represented together. And due to current EUIV policies about culture (at least three provinces and a tag) there is some arguments against making Abkhaz into the game. Three provinces could be made, Abkhazia, Jiqeti and Abazinia.

If not all that works out I could see a culture made for western-georgians (mingrelians and svans) and Abkhazians. Wheather it'd be called Abkhaz or Mingrelian is debattable.

As regard of the initial set-up and tags. Adding the Immereti vassals as independent state before 1463 seems inaccurate. Having the tags lying around would be nice, but looking at PDX reluctance to even include Kakheti in it's upcoming overhaul it might be unlikely that they would include 2-4 more tags that wouldn't start independent. Some people have mentioned giving provinces high autonomy, but in general this is an apporach just making gameplay worse. high autonomy dereases the chance of revolt while generating less money and manpower just making the georgia provinces really ardous to play with in the beginning.
One way though to represent the local nobility would be to simply have nobility estate present in the provinces. Given 4 out of 5 provinces would be noble owned Immereti would face some serious challenges from handling the infuence of it's noble estate.

Still, it would be preferable to have Kakheti as a country in the begining. For the dynamic of the region it would mean a lot. Having three small kingdoms with the same dynasty could go a lot of different ways.

It could also be argued that Georgia start with the other ones as vassals and the initial king has reduced vassal liberty desire as a trait. However I think this would make Georgia itself too hard to play with as it still would be too small to maintain it's vassals and quickly be eaten. It would most likely be a fairer game if they do not have any preexisisting relations beyond sharing a royal family.

What would be mostly for estetics but would give great flavour would be along these lines, start georgia as the central kingdom (as it still was, it wouldn't become Kartli until later) but have an event like the shadow kingdom event that if it don't own or have a vassal own all georgian provinces before 1463(?) it will tagswitch to Kartli instead. Unsure if dev would think of it as being relevant though.

I don't know if people in this thread is interested disussing the issues of northern caucasus so I will just briefly mention:

I wanted Alania to exist in game, the political status of Alanians in 1444 is precarious, the alan kingdom had collapsed and Kabardins were making themselves a powerhouse in the northern caucasus. Having Alans as an christian OPM would have benefited the gameplay (the more states in the caucasus the more dynamic and the more possibilities) but also in line with the PDX policies it is not possible to make more than three provinces for Alans (Alania and Dvaleti). The idea of including other peoples, Nakhs or Karachays and balkars as Alans doesn't resonate with me so I have to leave them out of the game in the end.