Genetic Modification

[Tyrannical Prince]

This is just a quick little thought I had.
I think the genetic modification is a cool/fun aspect of the game but could greatly be expanded upon.

First off, the current method of mass genetic modification should be a form of purging. It is still genocide and pops should respond to it as such.

Second, there should be a wider range of legal use for genetic modification. Here's a simple policy group I quickly made up

Genetic Modification
Illegal - (no genetic modification allowed)
Restricted - (only allow individual pops to environmentally optimize themselves, random traits can spawn but are unlikely)
Unrestricted - (individual pops are significantly more likely to develop different traits and environmental requirements even if not on the optimal world)

 

[wurmkrank]

This is just a quick little thought I had.
I think the genetic modification is a cool/fun aspect of the game but could greatly be expanded upon.

First off, the current method of mass genetic modification should be a form of purging. It is still genocide and pops should respond to it as such.

Second, there should be a wider range of legal use for genetic modification. Here's a simple policy group I quickly made up

Genetic Modification
Illegal - (no genetic modification allowed)
Restricted - (only allow individual pops to environmentally optimize themselves, random traits can spawn but are unlikely)
Unrestricted - (individual pops are significantly more likely to develop different traits and environmental requirements even if not on the optimal world)

why should it be considered purging? I'm confused about that.also wouldn't increasing the likelihood of pops modding themselves devalue the habitat and terraforming mechanics?

 

[Calvax]

I'm not sure it's explicitly stated but I'm pretty sure that in stellaris genetic modification is something that can be applied somatically, throughout the entire body, and not just through germline engineering. Presumably alternate therapies are used in conjunction to prevent any complications arising out of this and to stimulate a phenotypic change.

I do like the idea of unrestricted genetic modification where pops have a random chance to adopt a trait but I'm not sure how well it would work mechanically in the game. It would seem to create more layers of micromanagement with the player having to make sure that strong pops were on mines and painstakingly searching through the colonisation menu for the best adapted, appropriate ethos pop.

 

[Tyrannical Prince]

why should it be considered purging? I'm confused about that.also wouldn't increasing the likelihood of pops modding themselves devalue the habitat and terraforming mechanics?

Mass gene modification involves you wiping out a group of genes by force. How isn't that considered purging? It's not like they chose to be mass modified.

Imagine I made a virus that turned all non-white people into white people over night. I would have effectively wiped out entire races. Do you not see that as genocide?

And pops can already mod themselves, it just doesn't happen very often (and I think it might be a 1 time event kind of thing).

I'm not sure it's explicitly stated but I'm pretty sure that in stellaris genetic modification is something that can be applied somatically, throughout the entire body, and not just through germline engineering. Presumably alternate therapies are used in conjunction to prevent any complications arising out of this and to stimulate a phenotypic change.

I do like the idea of unrestricted genetic modification where pops have a random chance to adopt a trait but I'm not sure how well it would work mechanically in the game. It would seem to create more layers of micromanagement with the player having to make sure that strong pops were on mines and painstakingly searching through the colonisation menu for the best adapted, appropriate ethos pop.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying in the first part here.

The way I see it, a player might let their population genetically modify themselves for a while before the player decides enough is enough (tired of dealing with all these separate races/species) but you're right, the player would have to increase their micromanagement + there would probably be a little notification for when a pop modified themselves.

 

[DragonScythe]

Mass gene modification involves you wiping out a group of genes by force. How isn't that considered purging? It's not like they chose to be mass modified.

Imagine I made a virus that turned all non-white people into white people over night. I would have effectively wiped out entire races. Do you not see that as genocide?

Considering that would provide no real advantages, I don't think you understand the concept. The changes are more like "Yay everyone lives longer now." Or "Everyone is stronger now."

 

[Promethian]

Mass gene modification involves you wiping out a group of genes by force. How isn't that considered purging? It's not like they chose to be mass modified.

Imagine I made a virus that turned all non-white people into white people over night. I would have effectively wiped out entire races. Do you not see that as genocide?

And pops can already mod themselves, it just doesn't happen very often (and I think it might be a 1 time event kind of thing).



I'm not quite sure what you're saying in the first part here.

The way I see it, a player might let their population genetically modify themselves for a while before the player decides enough is enough (tired of dealing with all these separate races/species) but you're right, the player would have to increase their micromanagement + there would probably be a little notification for when a pop modified themselves.

Ah, you are one of those people who thinks race means something. Unfortunately for you the rest of the world outside your bubble stopped caring about race a while ago. People are people and skin pigmentation means nothing.

Even if your idiotic argument held weight if gene modding was treated as purging then it would have to be improved dramatically to justify the cost. There is no way to make it fit in the game like that. "Because gameplay" trumps all "because realism" arguments.

 

[wurmkrank]

Ah, you are one of those people who thinks race means something. Unfortunately for you the rest of the world outside your bubble stopped caring about race a while ago. People are people and skin pigmentation means nothing.

Even if your idiotic argument held weight if gene modding was treated as purging then it would have to be improved dramatically to justify the cost. There is no way to make it fit in the game like that. "Because gameplay" trumps all "because realism" arguments.

okay first of all I'm not convinced that what the OP is proposing is technically genocide, but I think if he strengthens his argument he could. Secondly, you are the one who is mistaken if you think race isn't a thing or doesn't matter. Go talk to a biologist or a doctor about the different medical issues between the races. I'm sorry but your social science professors aren't the authority on race and genetics. They are losing more and more credibility by pushing this "race is a social construct" ideology.

 

[Promethian]

okay first of all I'm not convinced that what the OP is proposing is technically genocide, but I think if he strengthens his argument he could. Secondly, you are the one who is mistaken if you think race isn't a thing or doesn't matter. Go talk to a biologist or a doctor about the different medical issues between the races. I'm sorry but your social science professors aren't the authority on race and genetics. They are losing more and more credibility by pushing this "race is a social construct" ideology.

Ha, you have it backwards. The social science professors are the ones pushing a race agenda. My saying "race means nothing" would enrage them because that is "denying them their identity and not acknowledging their unique oppressions." They are trying to draw attention to race just as much as the stormfags are. In fact I'm pretty sure the OP is a stormfag because his argument is basically "white genocide" put in the game context.

Also I get there are some biological differences but those differences in a medical context are quite rare. The vast majority of drugs, surgical techniques and the like work the same on everybody regardless of race. Yes I was a bit hyperbolic saying race means nothing but in social context, in judging a person's merit, race does mean nothing.

In the end though this is a pointless conversation because like I said in the post you quoted: "Because gameplay" always trumps "because realism."

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

This is going nowhere good.

 

[wurmkrank]

Ha, you have it backwards. The social science professors are the ones pushing a race agenda. My saying "race means nothing" would enrage them because that is "denying them their identity and not acknowledging their unique oppressions." They are trying to draw attention to race just as much as the stormfags are. In fact I'm pretty sure the OP is a stormfag because his argument is basically "white genocide" put in the game context.

Also I get there are some biological differences but those differences in a medical context are quite rare. The vast majority of drugs, surgical techniques and the like work the same on everybody regardless of race. Yes I was a bit hyperbolic saying race means nothing but in social context, in judging a person's merit, race does mean nothing.

In the end though this is a pointless conversation because like I said in the post you quoted: "Because gameplay" always trumps "because realism."

Got it. Thanks for clarifying. I agree with everything you said. I apologize for assuming you were going to start pushing bullshit.

Anyways back to the topic at hand. I could see the possibility of a diplomacy malus for genetically engineering pops against their will. Let's say I engineer pops to be delicious, obviously the people getting modded and also other empires are going to kinda see where I'm taking this.

I don't think it's somthing to worry about at this point but it could be considered for further expansions. Maybe genetic engineering could be a thing that certain ethos are against, much like AI and spiritualist.

 

[Promethian]

Got it. Thanks for clarifying. I agree with everything you said. I apologize for assuming you were going to start pushing bullshit.

Anyways back to the topic at hand. I could see the possibility of a diplomacy malus for genetically engineering pops against their will. Let's say I engineer pops to be delicious, obviously the people getting modded and also other empires are going to kinda see where I'm taking this.

I don't think it's somthing to worry about at this point but it could be considered for further expansions. Maybe genetic engineering could be a thing that certain ethos are against, much like AI and spiritualist.

Oh I get it, I'm sick of identity politics invading everything as well.

An anti gene modding faction would be interesting. Maybe make it as a way of causing a rift in xenophobic empires. One side against gene modded pops, saying they have become xeno and another accepting if they are from the original species.

 

[Had a dad]

Imagine I made a virus that turned all non-white people into white people over night. I would have effectively wiped out entire races. Do you not see that as genocide?

banned from thread for trolling

 

[dying0d]

I think he shouldn't have used ethnicity in an example to pass off the argument as genocide.

It's actually easily illustrated that gene molding can be genocide, look at what the Solarians did to the krogans with the genophage.

In the context of xenobiology, if pops modified themselves willy nilly, all they would do is create a subrace. That's bad for xenophobes. Remember when gene modding broke your empire apart? Sure that was an oversight, but it begs the question: does the ethic translate literally or figuratively?

Literally would mean subspecies would be ok in a xenophobe empire, that the pops wouldn't hate the gene modded pops of their species (whether voluntary or forced)

Figuratively, on the other hand, xenophobe would represent more, a deeper resentment of that which isn't them. Purity of the species above all else. Gene mod wouldn't sit well at all in this case. Pops wouldn't voluntarily do it, unless they drifted.

All that said, the policy would have to be locked specifically for that. As far as random traits, no.

There's just not enough traits in the game tbh. And they're all black and white, pick trait get desired bonus. Balance that with another for specific penalty. If that's weren't this way, and the system was amended to adjust for traits that gave both a bonus in one area, but a penalty in another, and the current ones weakened significantly since aside from a couple, they're all boons with no malus unless you must pick one of the bad traits.

But yeah, as far as expanding gene modding, why not add sterilization or racial genocide in general to it, but be prepared as it will pass people off. And viruses tend to mutate so bad event chains and mass infection may result.

Some nuggets are in the idea for sure

 

[wurmkrank]

Perhaps banning the op was a little excessive. He did bring up an interesting concept and it's not exactly clear that he was pushing some kind of political agenda. I mean there are examples of forced gene modding in sci Fi, like the mass effect example from the other poster.

I know this is a video game forum, but it's about a video game that's about politics. The players who are here are probably aware of current world events, this is inevitability going to bleed into our posts and it should be expected and accepted. Stellaris is an edgy game. We're dealing with slavery, genocide, eugenics, cannibalism and other atrocities. I would rather be able to have civil debates that could lead to creative ideas that devs and modders can use to enhance the game. I know the op brought up race in a rather peculiar way, but let's not go into "punch nazi" mode, we can be better than that. anyways...
I think expanding gene modding to have different opinion effects on pops and empires is an interesting idea.

The mass effect situation is especially good. If there were a way to use bio warfare to change the traits of enemy planets I think it would be really cool. Dropping bombs to release viruses that would give pops a bunch if negative traits is awesome.

I think the anti-gene mod faction should go to the xenophobe ethos, but I also think that they should get somthing to replace that mechanic. It would suck to deny them those gameplay bonuses all together. The Nazis are probably the first empire that comes to mind when we think "xenophobe" I've heard rumors (not sure if it's true) that they had forced breeding programs to try to select the best genes for reproduction. It's not exactly gene modding because it doesn't create a sub species or "pollute the purity of the race" but it would certainly lead to improving the population in various ways.

 

[AndrewT]

ON second thoughts, let's just close this one.