Generic Focus Tree: Fascist vs. Communist is WAY out of balance

[Faulty]

7% sounds laughably small

Hm, ok ... 7 % can be a lot, depending which minor state you have. Lets say Peru (fore example) has about 350.000 manpower: 7% are 24.500 additional manpower. Compared with USA or Germany it's nothing, but it could make a difference. Because you can combine it with "limited conscription" for your recruitable people and add even more with some of the land doctrines. Probably it would be the best to give a equal bonus to other ideologies.

You've badly misunderstood what the bonus refers to.

Let's use Peru as an example, a nation of 6.2 million people. With just the volunteer conscription bonus of 1.5%, you have 93,000 total manpower. Taking the 5% fascist bonus adds another 310,000 manpower on top of this.

 

[ROGTARholy]

Hm, ok ... 7 % can be a lot, depending which minor state you have. Lets say Peru (fore example) has about 350.000 manpower: 7% are 24.500 additional manpower. Compared with USA or Germany it's nothing, but it could make a difference. Because you can combine it with "limited conscription" for your recruitable people and add even more with some of the land doctrines. Probably it would be the best to give a equal bonus to other ideologies.

As Faulty says, you misunderstand the source of the gain. He nails it on the head, but I'll add that any nation that needs to go to Scraping the Barrel, will get the 25% + 7% for a whopping 32% of the ENTIRE POPULATION they have access to, minus the non-core penalty of course. Each province has a population if you click the cards and from that population is the source, the manpower in the photo Faulty has provides the total of the nation for simplicity, but if you want to avoid a major manpower loss from a specific province, defend it.

 

[Dalwin]

Hm, ok ... 7 % can be a lot, depending which minor state you have. Lets say Peru (fore example) has about 350.000 manpower: 7% are 24.500 additional manpower. Compared with USA or Germany it's nothing, but it could make a difference. Because you can combine it with "limited conscription" for your recruitable people and add even more with some of the land doctrines. Probably it would be the best to give a equal bonus to other ideologies.

That is not even close to how it works. The 7% is not over their available manpower, i.e. 350k. The 7% is a portion of their total population which becomes available manpower. Peru starts with 6.15 million population. That means that 7% is 421k additional manpower, not a measly 24k.

I know players who like to do the minor nation empire building thing. Their criteria is that if it has a base population of at least 5 million then it can be done relatively easily. This is more important than how many factories or resources that nation has at start.

 

[ltccone]

The manpower for fascist minors is way out of balance, so much so that it distorts things even when one is not playing any of the minors. Hungary produces a far larger army than it should because it is always in position to take advantage.

In my opinion the designers did that intentionally saying effectively that you can play any country and by going fascist build an empire. As such I do not think they are at all sympathetic to seeing this imbalance corrected since, as far as I can recall, they have made not a single comment to such an effect.

IMO this is ludicrous. If you want to play a minor, you should know you are going to play a MINOR role. As Hungary you should be sending a few divisions to fight the USSR, and try to keep your country your country from being consumed the Bear. If you want to do anything else, play a major.

 

[Sourlol]

I think we will see the relevant offenders curtailed in the next two DLC. In the first DLC, Raj population got balanced. To be fair, the other commonwealth did too, but Raj stuck out the worst.

With the Axis DLC and the custom NF trees I think we can all be certain there will be more gating on the population bonuses.

When the Asia DLC comes out, China and PRC will get fixed (although I suppose China/PRC will still effectively have infinite manpower), Siam should get balanced as well.

The generic tree is super OP for the majority of minors out there. Once all the belligerent nations have balanced NF trees--I would hope that goes a long way towards reducing division spam.

 

[War Emblem]

I'm not sure what the big deal is - all nations will likely get NF trees at some point and there won't be a generic tree anymore. Furthermore, considering Germany is usually losing or has lost by 42/43 for game play purposes other fascist nations need a boost to keep the game competitive. Don't get me wrong, I agree the fascist route has much better bonus elements than the communist tree, but I see them as needed for current game balance.

 

[Dalwin]

I seriously doubt that all countries will ever get a custom NF tree, at least not directly from Paradox. Even if your statement were true I don't see that as justifying suffering with the current imbalance for the 2-3 years such a process would require.

 

[War Emblem]

Certainly all the Euro Fascist prone minors will

 

[Dalwin]

Certainly all the Euro Fascist prone minors will

Which does not help MP games where someone plays, say Turkey and uses the generic tree to turn them into a real powerhouse.

As someone said back on page one, minor countries should be minor.

 

[ltccone]

I seriously doubt that all countries will ever get a custom NF tree, at least not directly from Paradox. Even if your statement were true I don't see that as justifying suffering with the current imbalance for the 2-3 years such a process would require.

I just think the whole idea to make minor countries more powerful than they were IRL is wrong. If you want to play a minor, be prepared to play a minor role. Countries like Poland, Hungary, Romania, etc. were not capable of conquering Europe. And because of that we get division spam in SP historical focus with a country like Hungary building over 200 divisions.

 

[Dalwin]

I just think the whole idea to make minor countries more powerful than they were IRL is wrong. If you want to play a minor, be prepared to play a minor role. Countries like Poland, Hungary, Romania, etc. were not capable of conquering Europe. And because of that we get division spam in SP historical focus with a country like Hungary building over 200 divisions.

I am not sure why you quoted me while saying that, but at the same time excluded the part of my post where I said the same thing. It makes it look like I agree with the notion of having overly powerful minor countries when obviously I do not.

Quotes are not meant merely as launching points for your own viewpoint. The original intent of the person you are quoting and to whom you are at least in theory replying should be retained.

 

[Locklen]

I think that the modifiers should be changed to recruitable pop modifier though even at scraping the barrel it should bring in less relative manpower than it does now, while giving a lot less at lower manpower laws, forcing them to eat the associated penalties earlier if they want the manpower.

 

[ltccone]

I am not sure why you quoted me while saying that, but at the same time excluded the part of my post where I said the same thing. It makes it look like I agree with the notion of having overly powerful minor countries when obviously I do not.

Quotes are not meant merely as launching points for your own viewpoint. The original intent of the person you are quoting and to whom you are at least in theory replying should be retained.

Sorry; I tried to quote your entire post. Not sure what happened...

 

[melkor88]

I'm hoping most of the original NF trees get a bit of a rework, as compared to the latest NFs in the last expansion, some are rather lacking.

 

[cat013]

Countries like Poland, Hungary, Romania, etc. were not capable of conquering Europe.

THE weirdest thing about this whole game is how Poland is a minor??? It had like the third biggest army in Europe. And the 3 countries above allied in 1936 would totally wipe the entire continent in under 6 months if they put their minds to it.

 

[Opanashc]

THE weirdest thing about this whole game is how Poland is a minor??? It had like the third biggest army in Europe. And the 3 countries above allied in 1936 would totally wipe the entire continent in under 6 months if they put their minds to it.

1 Jan 1939, Poland had ~300k men under arms. SU had around 1.5 mil, Germany just around 1 mil, France around 900k.
Poland is a minor, because it cannot project its power much beyond its own borders.

 

[Thund91]

I've always wondered why this was so, and i believe military youth is the main culprit because it gives 5% RP iirc.

While I think the ommunists should get similar bonuses, I don't think Democratic countries should unless they are fighting a defensive war.

 

[cat013]

1 Jan 1939, Poland had ~300k men under arms.

...instead of 1M they originally planned - but not being factually ready was a political choice which I don't see many players repeating. It is not relevant when we are talking capabilities.

Oh, and Poland did of course project its power across the borders. A lot, actually. The last projection happened in 1938 if memory serves. Exactly in the days of the Munich agreement.

 

[Opanashc]

...instead of 1M they originally planned - but not being factually ready was a political choice which I don't see many players repeating. It is not relevant when we are talking capabilities.

Oh, and Poland did of course project its power across the borders. A lot, actually. The last projection happened in 1938 if memory serves. Exactly in the days of the Munich agreement.

Dude, have you read my post? I said "project power much beyond its own borders".
Just because Poland could potentially mobilize up to 6 mil men (20% of population), does not make it a great power. China had 10 times the number of soldiers Poland had historically - yet China is definitely not a major power in the described time frame.
Could Poland affect anyone EXCEPT its neighbors? Like say, in Spain? Or in Africa? Poland was a strong regional power, one that could try to impose its will on its neighbors, unlike Austria or Belgium, but it was way out of major league. France and Italy were barely majors, when compared to big boys like UK, Germany, US and USSR.

 

[cat013]

China is definitely not a major power in the described time frame.

Just in case you didn't know - China was one of the 4 original UN "policemen" back in 1942 (France was added to the list much later). But I do believe that on your planet it was totally unimportant country nobody cared about.