Generating a New Source of Glass (Potential Solution to Destroying Worlds Mechanic that is Feasible)

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LizardCommander

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“You are, all of you, vermin. Cowering in the dirt thinking what, I wonder? That you might escape the coming fire? No. Your world will burn until its surface is but glass!”
-Prophet of Truth, Halo Series

This solution is to create a suitable middle ground between full scale planet destruction (which requires mechanics or designs that are not currently possible in the present state of the game, would be too time consuming to design, or would have issues being balanced), and a form that would be doable with the current script assets present in the game. There would need to be new art needed for this to work, but beyond that it wouldn't require as much as full scale planet destruction.

I was considering a combination between Orbital Bombardment, and what the Prethoryn Scourge do. The Scourge infest planets that they conquer, the planet involved transforms to an infested type, and requires being bombarded to have said infestation removed, afterwards it becomes a barren type, regardless of it's initial type (with few exceptions).

My suggestion is that a new, technologically locked, option is added to the policy mechanics under a secondary set of orbital bombardment options. It would be a T2 (there are three tiers of cards, 1 is basic ones you can get early, and each new tier is unlocked and added to the deck of research cards after a certain number of cards have been researched) for the initial stage, and would be a rare tech. Obviously pacifists would never draw this card, nor would xenophiles, but militarists and xenophobes would have a higher chance of drawing said card. There would be multiple levels of this tech, each with a new option of the policy (each become better and more efficient, comparable to the lineage option).

Onto the actual explanation of the mechanic itself, it would be one of three new options under an 'extermination via orbital bombardment' or something catchier. When researched and checked as policy, it would add in a fourth type of orbital bombardment when bombarding a planet. In example, every month there is a 20/35/50% chance that a random tile (though not one already affected) is turned to glass, and any pop on top of it is killed. This would function as a tile blocker that requires quite a few minerals/energy, and time (mainly time) to remove it. All pops would be unable to work (or remove the tile blocker) for the duration of the bombardment. Once the planet is purged of life, the planet would change to a new type of planet, something similar to 'Glassed'. It would require the same level of technology as Tomb world restoration to restore the planet's atmosphere, but would take longer than usual to repair that level of damage.

Choosing this policy would have a more slightly more severe effect than full bombardment, but when used would suffer the same effects as purging, as you are literally glassing planets. (This would be coded similarly to the 'terror bombing' negative, but would have the massive penalty of purging)

This process would take a lengthy time, depending on a combination of tech, fleet size, and the size of the world. Worlds with larger populations, and that are physically larger, will take longer to turn to glass than worlds of smaller portions. The first tech would give a 20% chance per month, on average 5 x 25 months = 125 months to glass a 25 size world. However, due to limits in fleet size, in actuality the efficiency would be significantly less, at least early. Late game this would be stoppable or countered by the ability for later-game empires to just terraform the world back in-shape, however it would be very effective midgame when people lacked the technology. Since this tech would be employed in wars, it would also be very effective at wiping out large swaths of land that your opponent controls in a somewhat more reliable and faster method, that is also very thematic, than regular full bombardment.

The description for why it works could be something similar to:

'Ships will now carry specialized energy weapons capable of causing the ecosystem substantial harm, and eventual destruction of atmospheres on planets.' - Stage 1 (20% chance, though it could be substantially less, such as 5%)

'The process of extermination has now become even more efficient than before. New advances in energy weapons and explosives has increased the efficiency in which we can turn worlds to glass.' - Stage 2 (35% chance, though it could be substantially less, such as 10%)

'The process has become frighteningly efficient, we are now able to exterminate with an efficiency once thought impossible. Entire worlds can now burn within as little as a couple of years, compared to the decade it used to take.' - Stage 3 (50% chance, though something smaller like 15% is also reasonable)


Alternatively to this version of the mechanic, a new option for right clicking a planet would be added, this would be doable to non-colonized worlds as well. It would feature a progress bar, with segments based on the number of tiles. Each month would one segment of the bar would be filled, and one tile (and any pop on it) would be turned to glass. Once all tiles (regardless if the colony is still there or not) are turned to glass, the entire planet changes type, to a Glassed type, which requires advanced terraforming to repair. As this is doable to all habitable worlds, even if they aren't currently inhabited, this allows for more strategy, and adds a more logical element to the game (killing the one pop that currently inhabits a Gaia planet turns it to glass, versus having to turn all 25 tiles to glass to glass the planet). However, the reason that this is the alternative is b/c I am unaware of the difficulty/ease that this could be implemented, versus the first option. The first option is rather reasonably doable within the currently defined concepts, however the secondary is far more exciting, though it would require far more effort to create.

I will consider feedback and whatnot.
 
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DukeLeto42

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A couple of additions to this:

-The rolls for "glassing" a tile should only begin once planetary fortifications are gone (reflecting the idea that this only begins once the planetary population is no longer able to defend itself or, particularly with planetary shield generators, shield the planet from bombardment).

-The percentage chances for this to happen should be maximum percentages, akin to normal bombardment, where you need sufficient fleet power to do the maximum monthly damage.

-The next DLC will include refugee populations -- perhaps pops on worlds being glassed could attempt to flee to other worlds within the empire, or even outside the empire (to reflect that they no longer feel their home empire can protect them). It really depends on whether you see the bombarding fleet as a full blockade or just a roving bombardment, in which case civilian evacuations would be possible.

-You could have glassed tiles added randomly across the planet. That way, if the planet is not fully populated, you still might end up glassing the planet in order to get those last pops, but you might hit the few pops in the first tries, and leave the planet still fairly intact (perhaps a timed planetary modifier for partial glassing, reducing habitability, happiness, and production due to the devastation, or even a planetary modifier that only is dispelled when all glassed surface modifiers are cleared).

Now that tomb world restoration is a thing, I feel that devastating planets is now more feasible. Depending on how they decide to work it, it could fit in with a tomb world restoration project, or alternatively with the new ability that has been teased to terraform some currently barren planets, like Mars (https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/823810604225990656/photo/1). I feel it would also give fanatic purifiers new options -- the cleanse planet policy ends up with you having to conquer their homeworld anyways, then do the tedious purging process, as well as make sure you clear out all primitive pops, etc... this would dramatically streamline a fanatic purifier empire.
 
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dying0d

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Isn't the math a bit off?

First, wouldn't RNG calculate if a tile gets glassed, then it would also select which, if it were to?

5 * 25 sounds like using the baseline value multiplied by the tile size. Which isn't necessarily what you are saying happens (this would lead to a 25 tile world being glassed in 5 months at 5 tiles a month)

I presume you just multiplied out what should gaurantee a hit (5 months by math should get you one gauranteed glassed tile)

But I digress, 10 and a month under another half years for one planet seems a bit too long. The penalties are in how basically everyone will hate you if you go forth with it.

In my mind, that should happen period, as it is now in stellaris, lowest bombard setting, sure 10 years seems fine for that.

Point being, this should be part of bombardment as it is currently. Heavier bombardment makes it happen more quickly. I wouldn't mind having a setting above current levels where you basically tell vommanders to glass a planet though, seems that level of destruction isn't represented here.

And allow p Shields to completely negate any glossing ever, as long as it's still up.

If you pop that building. Prepare for tiles and pops to disappear. Would give it an actual use(as opposed to the suggestion planetary fortification needs to be at 0 only, now it can be at 0 and the shield generator needs to be taken out before any orbital genocide can occur)
 
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Adamsrealm

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“You are, all of you, vermin. Cowering in the dirt thinking what, I wonder? That you might escape the coming fire? No. Your world will burn until its surface is but glass!”
-Prophet of Truth, Halo Series


This solution is to create a suitable middle ground between full scale planet destruction (which requires mechanics or designs that are not currently possible in the present state of the game, would be too time consuming to design, or would have issues being balanced), and a form that would be doable with the current script assets present in the game. There would need to be new art needed for this to work, but beyond that it wouldn't require as much as full scale planet destruction.

I was considering a combination between Orbital Bombardment, and what the Prethoryn Scourge do. The Scourge infest planets that they conquer, the planet involved transforms to an infested type, and requires being bombarded to have said infestation removed, afterwards it becomes a barren type, regardless of it's initial type (with few exceptions).

My suggestion is that a new, technologically locked, option is added to the policy mechanics under a secondary set of orbital bombardment options. It would be a T2 (there are three tiers of cards, 1 is basic ones you can get early, and each new tier is unlocked and added to the deck of research cards after a certain number of cards have been researched) for the initial stage, and would be a rare tech. Obviously pacifists would never draw this card, nor would xenophiles, but militarists and xenophobes would have a higher chance of drawing said card. There would be multiple levels of this tech, each with a new option of the policy (each become better and more efficient, comparable to the lineage option).

Onto the actual explanation of the mechanic itself, it would be one of three new options under an 'extermination via orbital bombardment' or something catchier. When researched and checked as policy, it would add in a fourth type of orbital bombardment when bombarding a planet. In example, every month there is a 20/35/50% chance that a random tile (though not one already affected) is turned to glass, and any pop on top of it is killed. This would function as a tile blocker that requires quite a few minerals/energy, and time (mainly time) to remove it. All pops would be unable to work (or remove the tile blocker) for the duration of the bombardment. Once the planet is purged of life, the planet would change to a new type of planet, something similar to 'Glassed'. It would require the same level of technology as Tomb world restoration to restore the planet's atmosphere, but would take longer than usual to repair that level of damage.

Choosing this policy would have a more slightly more severe effect than full bombardment, but when used would suffer the same effects as purging, as you are literally glassing planets. (This would be coded similarly to the 'terror bombing' negative, but would have the massive penalty of purging)

This process would take a lengthy time, depending on a combination of tech, fleet size, and the size of the world. Worlds with larger populations, and that are physically larger, will take longer to turn to glass than worlds of smaller portions. The first tech would give a 20% chance per month, on average 5 x 25 months = 125 months to glass a 25 size world. However, due to limits in fleet size, in actuality the efficiency would be significantly less, at least early. Late game this would be stoppable or countered by the ability for later-game empires to just terraform the world back in-shape, however it would be very effective midgame when people lacked the technology. Since this tech would be employed in wars, it would also be very effective at wiping out large swaths of land that your opponent controls in a somewhat more reliable and faster method, that is also very thematic, than regular full bombardment.

The description for why it works could be something similar to:

'Ships will now carry specialized energy weapons capable of causing the ecosystem substantial harm, and eventual destruction of atmospheres on planets.' - Stage 1 (20% chance, though it could be substantially less, such as 5%)

'The process of extermination has now become even more efficient than before. New advances in energy weapons and explosives has increased the efficiency in which we can turn worlds to glass.' - Stage 2 (35% chance, though it could be substantially less, such as 10%)

'The process has become frighteningly efficient, we are now able to exterminate with an efficiency once thought impossible. Entire worlds can now burn within as little as a couple of years, compared to the decade it used to take.' - Stage 3 (50% chance, though something smaller like 15% is also reasonable)


Alternatively to this version of the mechanic, a new option for right clicking a planet would be added, this would be doable to non-colonized worlds as well. It would feature a progress bar, with segments based on the number of tiles. Each month would one segment of the bar would be filled, and one tile (and any pop on it) would be turned to glass. Once all tiles (regardless if the colony is still there or not) are turned to glass, the entire planet changes type, to a Glassed type, which requires advanced terraforming to repair. As this is doable to all habitable worlds, even if they aren't currently inhabited, this allows for more strategy, and adds a more logical element to the game (killing the one pop that currently inhabits a Gaia planet turns it to glass, versus having to turn all 25 tiles to glass to glass the planet). However, the reason that this is the alternative is b/c I am unaware of the difficulty/ease that this could be implemented, versus the first option. The first option is rather reasonably doable within the currently defined concepts, however the secondary is far more exciting, though it would require far more effort to create.

I will consider feedback and whatnot.

The only things I can really see that we need here is for the migration bug with blockaded planets to be fixed. This bug is where pops can migrate to a planet being bombarded, which results in pops being replaced faster than you can kill them.

As for killing pops faster? Just add policies that positively effect the bombardment in one way and negatively another.

E.g.
- Increases chance to kill pops, but doubles the diplomatic impact killing a pop has.
- Moderately decreases chance to kill pops, but halves damage to fortifications.
- Increases chance to destroy buildings, But significantly increases chance to generate a tile blocker.

Other combos would be kinda overpowered with certain ethos as there is technically no drawback for them so these three are the ones I consider best all round.
 

DukeLeto42

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The only things I can really see that we need here is for the migration bug with blockaded planets to be fixed. This bug is where pops can migrate to a planet being bombarded, which results in pops being replaced faster than you can kill them.

As the discussion here has been illustrating, currently blockading is a military action to assault and destroy the planet's military targets and systems to wrest control from another empire. The death of pops and destruction of structures on the surface is a result of accidental damage and overflow from orbital bombardment, but it is quite clear from the mechanics of a blockade do not constitute a planetary siege (as the planet will never starve or surrender on its own to escape the siege). Of course, certain civs care less about collateral damage, but collateral damage it remains. In this context, pops migrating to bombarded planets is perhaps something that should be changed, but is not currently a true bug due to it just not being something the designers thought was relevant to include.

This suggestion would introduce a mechanic to truly bombard a world, devastating infrastructure and populations in an attempt to cleanse the planet of sentient life, even if at the cost of the planet's habitability. This is currently not a feature of the game.
 

Adamsrealm

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As the discussion here has been illustrating, currently blockading is a military action to assault and destroy the planet's military targets and systems to wrest control from another empire. The death of pops and destruction of structures on the surface is a result of accidental damage and overflow from orbital bombardment, but it is quite clear from the mechanics of a blockade do not constitute a planetary siege (as the planet will never starve or surrender on its own to escape the siege). Of course, certain civs care less about collateral damage, but collateral damage it remains. In this context, pops migrating to bombarded planets is perhaps something that should be changed, but is not currently a true bug due to it just not being something the designers thought was relevant to include.

This suggestion would introduce a mechanic to truly bombard a world, devastating infrastructure and populations in an attempt to cleanse the planet of sentient life, even if at the cost of the planet's habitability. This is currently not a feature of the game.

Food is planned to be a global recourse in the future :) and I'm sure paradox will likely implement a new kind of bormbardment policy that does no damage to planets along side it to allow and encourage true blockading tactics, comsumer goods in 1.5 will add to this as well.

Doomsday weapons are planned as well, though they will likely be seperate units to military ship, which is the most likely way I can see them adding the ability to devestate a planet.

I personally support these ideas from paradox and think that planetary devastation should be kept away from standard ships for extremely obvious balance reasons.
 

LizardCommander

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Isn't the math a bit off?

First, wouldn't RNG calculate if a tile gets glassed, then it would also select which, if it were to?

5 * 25 sounds like using the baseline value multiplied by the tile size. Which isn't necessarily what you are saying happens (this would lead to a 25 tile world being glassed in 5 months at 5 tiles a month)

I presume you just multiplied out what should gaurantee a hit (5 months by math should get you one gauranteed glassed tile)

But I digress, 10 and a month under another half years for one planet seems a bit too long. The penalties are in how basically everyone will hate you if you go forth with it.

In my mind, that should happen period, as it is now in stellaris, lowest bombard setting, sure 10 years seems fine for that.

Point being, this should be part of bombardment as it is currently. Heavier bombardment makes it happen more quickly. I wouldn't mind having a setting above current levels where you basically tell vommanders to glass a planet though, seems that level of destruction isn't represented here.

And allow p Shields to completely negate any glossing ever, as long as it's still up.

If you pop that building. Prepare for tiles and pops to disappear. Would give it an actual use(as opposed to the suggestion planetary fortification needs to be at 0 only, now it can be at 0 and the shield generator needs to be taken out before any orbital genocide can occur)

No, 20% a month, 5 month average to glass one tile, 25 tiles, 5 x 25 to equal 125 average time required. Rate is 1 tile per 5 months, number of tiles is 25, time required is 125 tiles on average. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

The initial speed suggested (20%) is supposed to be the most inefficient, and the earliest technology available to perform such actions. If it were to occur too fast, there would be no way to halt an empire utilizing this strategy from utterly annihilating you in a couple of years. Without the restoration project being available, the process to restore the world(s) affected would be gone, the tile blockers themselves function as an efficient way to cause harm (requiring substantial energy, minerals, and time to repair, though no technology is required to repair the blockers). The second one unlocked (35%) features approximately 3 x 25 (1 tile per 3 months roughly, x 25 tiles, = 75 months) or 6.25 years. The third one unlocked is (50%) 2 x 25 = 50, or just over 4 years. It isn't precisely the couple of years I initially stated, however it is substantially faster than the previous ones before it. Remember these are all arbitrary numbers that I came up with at like 3 in the morning.

The reason it would take so long to glass planets is to prevent an empire from being rapidly turned to glass, and more properly representing the time it would take to scourge life on a planet like that. You also have to realize, I'm talking about a Size 25 planet, the average planet is closer to 16. 5 x 16 = 80 months, or 6.7 years (first tech); 3 x 16 = 54 months, or 4.5 years (second tech); 2 x 16 = 32 months, or 2 years (this is the standard type of planet I was referencing in the original description, so it's extremely fast as you can see).

The fortifications would need to fall first, and these numbers are representative of a capped (though not necessarily referencing the empire's ship cap, it could be an arbitrary power level needed to lay waste on this level) fleet, which would be pretty massive, to represent how much firepower is being brought. This first example is a stop-gap measure, it functions as a placeholder for the secondary. While it is subpar to the secondary option, the secondary option requires more resources and time developing than the first, and therefore would be better relegated to a different time, whereas the first could be full created and released within less than a week.

I do appreciate all the feedback though. :D
 

LizardCommander

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As the discussion here has been illustrating, currently blockading is a military action to assault and destroy the planet's military targets and systems to wrest control from another empire. The death of pops and destruction of structures on the surface is a result of accidental damage and overflow from orbital bombardment, but it is quite clear from the mechanics of a blockade do not constitute a planetary siege (as the planet will never starve or surrender on its own to escape the siege). Of course, certain civs care less about collateral damage, but collateral damage it remains. In this context, pops migrating to bombarded planets is perhaps something that should be changed, but is not currently a true bug due to it just not being something the designers thought was relevant to include.

This suggestion would introduce a mechanic to truly bombard a world, devastating infrastructure and populations in an attempt to cleanse the planet of sentient life, even if at the cost of the planet's habitability. This is currently not a feature of the game.

My suggestion is to add a new bombardment type that will create tileblockers (and kill the persons where they were), and once the planet has reached it's fill of tileblockers, it changes type (similar to a change in type via terraforming) to a new, Glassed planet, which is uninhabitable until the ecosystem is restored via advanced terraforming. This would counter the need to change how pops migrate/resettle, as the tiles are completely unusable once hit (no new pop can move there), and would allow for a reasonably easy form of planetary devastation to be present.
 
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dying0d

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No, 20% a month, 5 month average to glass one tile, 25 tiles, 5 x 25 to equal 125 average time required. Rate is 1 tile per 5 months, number of tiles is 25, time required is 125 tiles on average. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

The initial speed suggested (20%) is supposed to be the most inefficient, and the earliest technology available to perform such actions. If it were to occur too fast, there would be no way to halt an empire utilizing this strategy from utterly annihilating you in a couple of years. Without the restoration project being available, the process to restore the world(s) affected would be gone, the tile blockers themselves function as an efficient way to cause harm (requiring substantial energy, minerals, and time to repair, though no technology is required to repair the blockers). The second one unlocked (35%) features approximately 3 x 25 (1 tile per 3 months roughly, x 25 tiles, = 75 months) or 6.25 years. The third one unlocked is (50%) 2 x 25 = 50, or just over 4 years. It isn't precisely the couple of years I initially stated, however it is substantially faster than the previous ones before it. Remember these are all arbitrary numbers that I came up with at like 3 in the morning.

The reason it would take so long to glass planets is to prevent an empire from being rapidly turned to glass, and more properly representing the time it would take to scourge life on a planet like that. You also have to realize, I'm talking about a Size 25 planet, the average planet is closer to 16. 5 x 16 = 80 months, or 6.7 years (first tech); 3 x 16 = 54 months, or 4.5 years (second tech); 2 x 16 = 32 months, or 2 years (this is the standard type of planet I was referencing in the original description, so it's extremely fast as you can see).

The fortifications would need to fall first, and these numbers are representative of a capped (though not necessarily referencing the empire's ship cap, it could be an arbitrary power level needed to lay waste on this level) fleet, which would be pretty massive, to represent how much firepower is being brought. This first example is a stop-gap measure, it functions as a placeholder for the secondary. While it is subpar to the secondary option, the secondary option requires more resources and time developing than the first, and therefore would be better relegated to a different time, whereas the first could be full created and released within less than a week.

I do appreciate all the feedback though. :D

To be fair, I'm sure random probabilities equations are more complex then that. Math is irrelevant, as it can be fine tuned rather easily though.

My main point was more of this should be rolled into stellaris as is, because that makes most plausible sense. What I think should happen is probably the policy thing someone else mentioned, to be more elegant.

I'd also like to add in, fortifications needing to be at 0 first doesn't sound like enough, and actually gave a use to one of the most useless buildings in the game by requiring it's removal prior to any blockers being generated at all.

That just seems like a planetary Shields bread and butter, away from its presently useless add 50% Moar fort hp...for reasons you stated, later fleets would glass planets so fast...(as forts don't even register as a speed-bump in the mid game for me my fleets are large enough to reduce forts in less than a month, save capitals with their bonus)

I love this idea. It adds something that should have already been in to the game. And as far as balancing, like I said the math is arbitrary, and can be tuned easily once the rest is set