Generals should mean more...

[Kinkness]

I have a serious gripe with this game. I know another thread is out there, but this seriously needs to be changed in my eyes.

I tested it using cheats. As Ireland who controls all of Wales, Ireland, and parts of the lower sections of England, I made sure the provinces were generating top notch troops, by upping every single thing possible in every province. This was Test #1 to see if technology really even did anything in war.

My second test, was to see if Generals did much if anything. I used the cheats again, to add martial to my 3 generals. I gave them all 90 Martial.

I then started a war with England. Making sure my Armies were lower in #'s all the time.

Here's how it went.

FIght #1 8k English vs 5k Irish. Generals martials on English side 5, 5, 4, vs 90, 90, 90. = Irish Loss.

Fight #2 12k English vs 9k Irish Generals on English Side all 0 Martial, vs, 90, 90, 90. = Irish Loss.

Fight #3 9k English vs 5k Irish. Irish Defense on hill/mountain. English Side Martial all 0 vs Irish Martial 90 = Irish Win.

Fight #4 Same province as #3, English 12k vs Irish 9k, rest same as #3 = Irish Win.


My conclusion? Generals dont mean crap, and neither does technology. My tech was superior to English by far because I used cheats to make my Steward 120 Stewardship so I could build buildings in 1 day, I made sure that within the first month every province of mine was maxed. No way england could get close to that.

And.. the rest you can see above. Seems to me the only thing that makes any difference is the land your fighting on. Even with 3 Generals of 90 Martial vs 3 generals with 0 martial I still lost due to numbers, regardless of how upped my tech was as well.

I find this ridiculous to say the least. Technology all in all was, yes, stagnant in Medieval ages which is why the true thing which caused a battle to be won was the generals themselves.

Sadly, I'm not sure how they could go about doing this, however, I believe it should be done. My test and series of other tests has proven to me that generals really dont mean squat unless they have a special ability that makes a certain attack more powerful. Otherwise it comes down to "whoever can field more men wins". Which is anything but historical.

 

[rashtrakut]

What is the composition of the armies? foot soldiers vs knights etc?

 

[fridabina]

Also military traits mean alot more than good martial skill. I usually go for the ones with good traits, not high martial skill. (Both are nice tough.)

Also 4 Fights aint enough for good statistics come back after 100 battles. But yes martial skill doesn't matter that much if they dont modify the Military traits.
Try putting a 90 martial skill general with Lots of military traits and u will see different results.

 

[leksu]

Technology isn't reflected as the amount of buildings you have in a province, it has a separate window.

The buildings only give you more troops.

 

[icon41gimp]

The English have their longbows. In any circumstances where this unit is not hindered by terrain expect to lose the skirmish phase badly. If you're at a numerical disadvantage to start with expect to lose the battle. It's a beastly unit.

 

[Lamprey]

How do you get your martial stat to 90?

 

[Kinkness]

How do you get your martial stat to 90?

add_martial <char ID> +<#> (Or a - instead of a + if you want to lower it) and to get the char ID type in Charinfo 1 and hover your mouse over their portrait.

As for everyone else.... I still stand by what I said. Generals are all in all worthless. If Martial skill does nothing, which If anything my test proves, then how come it shows it? hmm... seems derpy to me.

Edit: yes I know there are skills etc. which can influence and make them better, but... So far none of my generals have ever gained anything from battles... except maybe martial... and tournaments, and random events only do what? you got it... raise martial....

Martial seems to be the "main" stat which is utterly worthless
--------

I could also say, ok I'll run 100 tests.. but I really dont need too, I'm smart enough to understand what should happen, in comparison to how I feel it would be balanced. (of course the devs probably would have a diff idea, but thats all fine.)

I think a 12k Army vs a 8k Army with the generals having far superior "stats" should win, which they dont. ever.. Unless you get meticulously lucky and have 1 of them with a good generalship trait..

I find this ridiculous as well, and it seems to me, as though the battles all in all were setup for "bigger army wins indefinitely" setup with a few eye candy traits/stats thrown in which really do minimal if anything to help change that. Which I find, you guessed it.. Ridiculous

 

[unmerged(26764)]

I don't think you get how the martial stat works.

It does two things:

1. It multiplies the chance of his flank picking the best possible tactic.
2. It multiplies bonuses and reduces penalties from traits.

The first often seems like not that big a deal. One, because a bad general often picks a decent tactic. Two, because a good general may still pick a bad tactic. And three, because in some situations there's really not an obvious best tactic anyway.

Where this really matters is when you have a flank with one type of unit really dominant, or when facing Mongols. If you have a flank with all heavy cav, picking a good heavy cav tactic will absolutely change the course of the battle. And when facing Mongols, picking a shieldwall during skirmish or not is the difference between winning and losing. If the English had all longbows on a flank, and the right general picked the tactic that multiplies their damage by 420 percent -- yeah that matters a lot. But if you have a normal enemy and a mix of every time of unit, most tactics will give a big bonus to just a small part of your army and a penalty to another part. So the effectiveness depends on the sitution.

The second thing often matters more. If you have a good trait, multiplying it by the martial skill can turn it into a godly trait. And when you get a trait with a downside -- infantry leader hurting cav, or defensive hurting offense, or the like -- high martial stat can turning that malus into almost zero, getting only the bonus.

Bottom line: Yeah, a high martial stat with no bonus in a mixed unit situation doesn't matter that much. But a high martial stat with great bonuses that always picks the tactic that multiplies his damage by 300 percent instead of the one that does 40 percent -- that matters a lot.

You need to understand how the system actually works. Generals matter a ton. But a good general isn't what you think it is. Do a test with a 20 martial general with cruel, unyeilding, and mountain fighter leading a group of all heavy infantry in the mountains and tell me it doesn't matter.

 

[krisslanza]

I also think after about 20 points in a stat, it doesn't really do much. As, realistically, you rarely will find any characters with more then 20 in any stat (without bonuses).

But the actual military tactic traits mean far more then the Martial trait. That said, numerical advantage is still a pretty big factor in winning generally though this also depends on the army make up. (A bunch of light infantry aren't that impressive compared to an equally large amount of heavy cavalry, for example).

 

[Fawr]

The bonus that Martial ability gives to chosing the right tactic is capped at about 15-20 martial. Any lower and the general may choose bad options more, but higher doesn't make any difference.

Other than that you are just relying on traits. Were your leaders ones with good Martial educations & traits?

 

[Kaiser Ludwig]

Wait, but GOT Mod has beastly dragons, which AFAIK are like Generals for the armies or something, and I remember reading like 5,000 men slaughtering 30,000 because of the Dragon. Never experienced it though.

 

[unmerged(7276)]

Both generals and terrain should matter much more IMO.

 

[Mutineer]

But they do matter a lot.

You simply do not undestend combat mechanic.

Martial skill define probability of proper tacktic. Correct choise of tacktic can let army beat double size opponent. Tsome tacktics have 200-300% bonuses to sertan trops.

Martial skill over 20 do not add mach. On other had in addition teran, speed and moral bonuses of generals play a big role too.