In case anyone is interested and doesnt want to wait the 10 to 15 posts that are necessary to get to the switch point, here is what Guderian looks like on June 28 1947
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ColossusCrusher said:
Off the top of my head...
Poland
Hungary
Romania
Bulgaria
Yugoslavia
Italy
Switzerland
Netherlands
Belgium
Luxemburg
France
Spain
Portugal
Greece
Turkey
Denmark
Sweden
Norway
Finland
Russia
The Middle East
All of Africa
Pakistan
India
The Jungles of Asia
China
You know... the usual...
You know I would think that in this situation the allied powers would take any help from the german "escapees" that they could get.
Ahh, a man of much and varied experiences
I can't remember - did you set up all the puppets like that in the first incarnation of this AAR or is this an innovation for this version?
I can't remember - did you set up all the puppets like that in the first incarnation of this AAR or is this an innovation for this version?
stnylan said:Ahh, a man of much and varied experiences
I can't remember - did you set up all the puppets like that in the first incarnation of this AAR or is this an innovation for this version?
There were some puppets setup in the first go around, but not quite sure as to the number - it was a long time ago...
The coastal forts things is new, and hopefully that will make it much more challenging.
Guderian's panzers were at the forefront of every conquest, with the exception of when von Rundstedt took 100 divisions into India while Guderian took the armored divisions into Africa. Once the latter was taken care of, they came together to drive the British out of eastern India and then slowly pushed them back to Shanghai.
darthkommandant said:
Its all about principles, and whether one sticks to them regardless of what happens. The men that tried to flee to the United States and were caught, interrogated and then tried and convicted of war crimes were the ones just below the High Command, so more likely to have their hands dirty. Would America want to employ men like this? Why would they - they have tons of competent generals hanging around. Whereas a Guderian who was in charge of the conquest side of things, and then handed things over to subordinates and then to the SS, he would just be viewed as a consummate soldier and, as the architect of it all, would be in a position to help.
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ColossusCrusher said:If that's the usual...what's excessive?
Doing all of that by the end of 1943.
I think this is a bit better than when you started the last one, from I remember you never even have Guderian interviewed in the beginning.
Btw, wasn't it 1933 at Kummersdorf that Hitler was convinced of armoured warfare or was this a real event twisted a bit in your plot?
Btw, wasn't it 1933 at Kummersdorf that Hitler was convinced of armoured warfare or was this a real event twisted a bit in your plot?
Slaughts said:
Thanks - I think once it is all wrapped up that it will turn out much better, at least in terms of the overall design, than the first incarnation (which is what a second draft should be - much better than the first).
As for Kumnersdorf, its a case of a little of column A, a little of column B...
EDIT - it should have been 1933 and not 1937 - small error by my part and fixed.
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So when did the nuking of Berlin and Vienna take place? Will there be more about that later?
Dinglehoff said:
Of course...
Unlike the first go around, I am able to place things out of context and then go back to them later on in detail, which I hope makes for a more enjoyable read then just a straight forward account of what happened.
Beck's Munich Group was worth mentioning this early because there was the discussion of Beck's initial opposition to Guderian's armored plans - in an actual interview, that sort of bouncing back and forth would happen all the time.
The nuking of Berlin and Vienna actually plays a vital role in determining a large part of the future conflict, as the horrors of using such weapons of mass destruction gives pause to the Pan-American Council, further isolating America... but more on this later...
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The Svengali
He doesn’t move that much, Escher mentally noted, wondering what the team of analysts watching this play out were making of all this. No wasted movements, no wasted energy. Like a lion waiting for his opportunity to pounce on a victim. Or a cat perhaps playing with his prey? Even in his face, there is little to give away his thoughts – he is one of those who cant easily be read, working out all the variables in his head before making his opinion known. Like Amadeus, who wrote complete symphonies in his head before committing them to paper in a single, perfect draft.
1929, Guderian is given command of the Truppenamt Abtl. Heeres-Transport – inspection command of motorized units, and a year later he is given command of a motorized battalion. Believing that communication was vital to decisive warfare, he devised a radio system that enabled communication between tank officers. In 1930, he becomes a teacher of motorized transport tactics in Berlin, attracting the attention of several up and coming staff officers who would sit in on his lectures, including Erich Hoepner, Dietrich von Saucken and Hyazinth Graf Strachwitz von Groß-Zauche und Camminetz. In 1931, he was promoted to Lieutenant-Colonel, becoming the Chief of Staff to the Inspectorate of Motorized Troops, and insider eighteen months was a full blown Colonel.
During this period he wrote relentlessly about armored and motorized warfare and corresponded with other proponents of armored warfare including Charles de Gaulle, George Patton and the Russian Mikhail Tukhachevsky. All the major players of the period – de Gaulle, Patton, Tukhachevsky, JFC Fuller, Liddell Hart – he translated their works into German and presented them to his peers, often refining what they wrote and improving on it. He wargamed without troops extensively, with paper tanks and then with armored vehicles – it was during one of these wargames at Kummersdorf in 1933 that Hitler, who was a voracious reader of any and all things Guderian, saw what armored divisions could do and ordered the creation of three early Panzer divisions, completely ignoring the Treaty of Versailles.
What would have happened if Hitler had not taken a trip that day? Escher asked himself. While he was interested in Guderian’s theories, established officers like Beck still had his ear. Could all of this had been avoided if Hitler had of come down with a cold?
In 1934, he was made Chief of Staff of the Motorized Troops Command and in October of 1935 he was posted to the newly crated 1st Panzer Division, joining Maximilian von Weichs zu Glon, who picked up command of the 2nd Panzer Division, as the first two Panzer leaders. In January of 1937, he was promoted to Major-General and six months later was promoted again to Lieutenant-General and given the lofty title of Chef der Schnellen Truppen – responsible for the training, tactics and technique of all motorized and armored units. Technically, he served under the discretion of the Chief of the General Staff of the Oberkommando des Heeres, but in reality the only person Guderian answered to was Hitler, and not Beck.
Almost a meteoric rise, Escher noted. That must have pissed a lot of people off, members of the old guard who must have been shitting themselves with jealousy. Would Guderian have been aware of it? It obviously didnt bother him, as he still employed Beck and used his expertise as an infantry man - obviously Guderian was a fan of the old adage that one keeps your enemies and critics as close as possible so they can cause the least amount of damage. Spring of 1937, he published his book, which was a compilation of all his teachings, writings and translations, a synthesis of everything so even the most venal critics could get an understanding of what he was proposing and where he wanted to take them. Even his most vocal and adamant critics had to at least agree that everything he proposed looked great on paper.
In August of 1937, Hitler - bypassing Beck and the other conservative elements on the General staff, orders Guderian to put together a task force for the invasion of Czechoslovakia - Fall Grün, and the first draft was ready in October, calling for an assault in the summer of 1938. His pan was presented to Hitler along with additional recommendations and estimates for other potential targets in Eastern Europe – Poland, Hungary, Romania and Yugoslavia. Guderian’s confidence was infectious, and radically changed the Chanceller’s outlook on the possibilities of war, leading to the Hossbach Memorandum of November 5th 1937, where Hitler outlined his plans for expansion to his military and foreign policy leadership.
Reich Foreign Minister Baron Konstantin von Neurath, the Reich War Minister Field Marshal Werner von Blomberg, the Wehrmacht Commander General Werner von Fritsch all argued that the foreign policy Hitler espoused was highly risky and that Germany needed much more time to rearm. All three were strongly opposed to Guderian’s blitzkrieg and warned that there was no way to start and finish localized wars before France and Britain invaded from the west. Hitler ignored all three to the point that all were sacked by the fall of 1938, along with Beck. Guderian was given the job of Chief of Staff of the Army High Command and told to prepare Fall Weiss – the invasion of Poland.
The German plan for the Invasion of Poland
Escher marveled at how entranced Hitler was at the possibilities of what was being proposed, as if Guderian was some sort of svengali with mystical control over the chancellor. A German version of Rasputin – that’s how entranced Hitler was at the potential of the Panzers, Escher thought. But what leader, burning inside to avenge the stupidities of Versailles and to ensure that Germany achieved what they considered to be their rightful place in the sun, wouldn't look at the candies being offered and reach for them wholeheartedly?
Guderian’s Fall Weiss called for a lightning thrust with his Panzers that would drive north upwards toward Warsaw, meeting a smaller force led by Guderian that would take Danzig and then drive south to hook up with Hoeppner and Runstedt’s Army Group South. The pincer was intended to encircle the entire Polish army and then completely destroy it west of the Vistula. The go ahead was given on August 30th 1939 after Poland refused to cave in to Hitler’s demands for Danzig and it worked out exactly as Guderian had outlined. His tanks rolled up to, over and then through the Polish armed forces, and by the 16th of September, Poland capitulated completely.
As expected, France and Britain declared war, but neither were in any position to do anything other than sit in their bunkers behind the Maginot Line and look pretty. Which was a damn shame, Escher chuckled to himself, as the French outnumbered the Germans up and down the line by 5 to 1 in places. All they had to do was get off their baguette eating asses and cross the border, and there was almost nothing between them and Berlin. The whole damn thing, all those millions of wasted lives, all because the French were too lazy to fight.
“Something amusing, Chronicler?” Guderian asked as he intently watched Escher.
“Just remarking to myself at how the French could have walked all over your western front forces while you were in Warsaw.”
Escher waited for a reaction, hoping that one would appear, but he was disappointed. “Perhaps the French would have made some progress,” Guderian answered, “but by the time they had committed themselves to the battle and emerged from their vaunted Maginot Line, we would have been there to destroy them.”
Always with the supreme sense of confidence, of knowing that nothing the enemy could throw at him would matter the slightest, Escher thought. This inner sense of infallibility, is that would drove him? Most generals would have rested on their laurels that fall, but Guderian instead implements Fall Margarethe, the invasion of Hungary, on October 6th.
“Is that why you turned south from Warsaw and destroyed Hungary in a mere ten days? Because you knew that the French wouldn’t have been able to pick up any real estate in the late fall?”
“It seemed like the logical thing to do, since we were in the neighborhood and all,” Guderian answered with a wry smile.
The official order by Hitler for the attack on Poland on August 31st
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I often wonder who played "svengali" to whom? After all, Hitler was holding some "candy" that Guderian wanted as well. Namely, the chance to test drive his theories! That must have been very attractive to him. Sadly, their obsessions were quite complementary.
WhisperingDeath said:
Very interesting observation - I did not think of that...
Of course, Hitler's November 13th mini-stroke left Himmler gradually taking more of a control over the reins of power, leading to the policy of making sure that continental Europe was firmly in the hands of the Reich.
More on this later, of course...
Kurt_Steiner said:
Hungary was a shocker, considering how much they desperately wanted to ally themselves with Germany, but allies can be fickle at times - better safe than sorry and all that.
The Fragile Nature of Fickle Allies
September 16th, the Polish government fell and instead of rapidly deploying his troops to shore up the western front versus France, Guderian turned south to implement his Fall Margarethe, the invasion of Hungary. When he originally presented the plan in November 1937, even Hitler had to be convinced as to the justification to attack an erstwhile ally. Gyula Jafka, the Hungarian Prime Minister, has been making overtures towards the Reich through their foreign minister, Bela Omoravia, and Ribbentrop had been cultivating that relationship for years. Here was a chance to gain a valuable ally, one who would provide troops and, more importantly, raw materials for the German war engine. Yet Guderian just didnt want their fidelity, he wanted all of them.
“Why Fall Margarethe? Hungary wanted to be a loyal ally, so why attack them?”
“It was your own George Washington who warned your nation to steer clear of any alliances, be they permanent or temporary, given that the position of the allied nation could change depending on the circumstances. Today, perhaps, Hungary would have been an excellent ally, but what about tomorrow? Or the day after? Surely you are aware of how fickle an ally can be and how fragile an alliance can become. The actions of the Pan-American Council are proof positive of that.”
After Vienna was nuked on February 12th 1947, the Pan-American Council issued a joint communique deploring the use of such a weapon, especially after the horrific damage and casualties caused by the nuclear attack on Berlin the previous summer. When Beck and his group took over and sent out peace feelers, the Pan-American Council were quick to respond. In reality, there was no actual way for Germany to invade South America at that point, given the time that it took to prepare their invasion force for Britain, which was only a short trip across the Channel. To assemble an invasion force for the Americas would have taken years of planning. When Roosevelt gave his “Total War” speech on July 4th and then dropped yet another nuclear weapon on Oppelyn the next day, the Pan-American Council accepted the terms of peace, which mostly involved Germany agreeing not to invade if the Americas abandoned the United States. When Himmler and his henchmen took over, they swore to uphold the treaty, mostly because there was no way to get to South America. When the Pan-American Council left, Canada was in a no-win situation. Mackenzie King was facing riots in Quebec City, demanding that Canada sue for peace, especially after the United Kingdom fell. The tipping point was Hindenburg’s maiden speech as the new Reich figurehead, demanding that the “blood of those who died in Berlin be revisited a thousand fold upon the enemies of the Reich.” Oppenheimer’s weapon of mass destruction, Escher grimly surmised, designed to end the conflict sooner than later had instead isolated America to the point where only she and she alone stood against the might of the Reich and her axis puppets.
The devastation of Berlin following the August 12th 1946 nuclear attack by the United States
“In my opinion,” Guderian continued, “the luxury of an alliance can only be allowed in areas that are not of strategic importance and are so far away as to not cause trouble. The heart of Europe, on the doorstep of Germany, was too important to allow such a potential problem to germinate.”
“Which is why you also attacked Romania and then Italy,” Escher asked.
“Romania, yes. Their position was also a strategic liability, as there was a possibility, however remote, that an enemy army could launch an amphibious assault from the Black Sea and penetrate Germany before defenses could be erected in time. Tatarescu, the Prime Minister, struck me as the type of person who would bend like a reed in a river. As for Italy, not even the Fuhrer believed in the fidelity of that strutting peacock of a fool, Mussolini. Especially after Sardinia.”
“You are referring to the August 1939 conference, correct?”
“Yes, where Mussolini met in secret with Pierre Laval,” Guderian answered. “How he thought that the knowledge of such a meeting would not make it way to Berlin is beyond me. When confronted, he merely said he was discussing regional matters, but in fact he was vacillating between the Allies and us, and ensured Laval that he would not go to war over Poland. Even the most fawning admirer of Il Duce could see that Italy would be the soft underbelly of Europe that caused our downfall if left to his own incompetent designs.”
Following Guderian's stunning and swift triumph over Poland, he turned his sights southward and on October 6th 1939, Hungary is given notice that they are now at war with Germany. They were so shocked that they were still in a daze ten days later when they were forced to surrender unconditionally. On the way to Romania and Italy, Guderian invaded Yugoslavia on November 3rd and by the 18th Draza Mihailovic and his cabinet capitulated. On December 18th two assaults were launched across the Romanian and Italian borders, catching both off guard.
“Yugoslavia was just on the way to Venice, I take it?” Escher facetiously asked, but Guderian didn’t answer and Escher really didn’t expect him to. A picture was forming in Escher’s mind, one completely at odds with what most analysts had assumed. Everyone was under the impression that the cleansing of Southern Europe and the Italian campaign – which had shocked everyone – was Hitler’s idea, part of the shifting sense of reality that accompanied him and all done ad hoc and on the fly. But it wasn’t – it was all planned out years before by Guderian, that declarations of war on minors were just meant as exercises to bloody his men and achieve live ammunition training of his beloved armored divisions. This was not a man who was reactive, who waited to take orders from his superiors. Escher was not a psych doctor, but even he could see that this was a man who was proactive and who bent the wills of those around him so he could test his theories and engage in his battles.
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Kurt_Steiner said:
Heh.. well, maybe after he re-conquers the world as an America at war with everyone else...
Some screenies of the action:
Fall Weiss - traditional southern sweep to Warsaw to meet northern thrust in a pincher
Fall Margarethe - Bulgarians arent going to be a problem
Fall Operation 25 - with Yugoslavia it was a case of terrain vs time as I didnt want the campaign to last more than a few weeks
Fall Braunschweig
Fischreiher vs the Romanians and Hubertus vs the Italians
Didnt want to split the troops up at this point, but wanted to make sure that both fell before the spring offensive in the west
Fall Weiss - traditional southern sweep to Warsaw to meet northern thrust in a pincher
Fall Margarethe - Bulgarians arent going to be a problem
Fall Operation 25 - with Yugoslavia it was a case of terrain vs time as I didnt want the campaign to last more than a few weeks
Fall Braunschweig
Fischreiher vs the Romanians and Hubertus vs the Italians
Didnt want to split the troops up at this point, but wanted to make sure that both fell before the spring offensive in the west