Generalitat of Catalunya

[Sir Leningrad]

Vassal Republics / Generalitat of Catalunya

I was thinking in the republic mechanics, and how you can have them as vassals and such, and so I thought of the Diputació del General, wich later became the Generalitat of Catalonia, that is a permanent dalegation of the catalan courts with it's own taxes, levies and such, elected by the nobles, burgeois and clerics of the courts, and it's own president. Technically, although it was not a republic like Venice, in gameplay terms, having a duchy-level republic governing in Catalonia would be like having a Generalitat from my point of view.

So I have two questions:
1st- How will the names and titles of republics be handled? Will they be different in different cultures? This way the major of let's say, Girona, could be the Batlle, while there could be a Generalitat in the Duchy of Catalonia.
2nd- Can I have the capital in Barcelona despite it being a "free city", like in real life?

Not that this would change much the gameplay, but would give it more flavour.

 

[Jaol]

Don't know about 1, but re. 2, yes I imagine you will be able to have the capital of a Duchy in the province Barcelona, while also having a city-type holding in that province that represents the city itself.

 

[Nick B II]

Don't know about 1, but re. 2, yes I imagine you will be able to have the capital of a Duchy in the province Barcelona, while also having a city-type holding in that province that represents the city itself.

By making Barcelona the capital he meant the province-capital.

In CK2 each Count-title will be inextricably linked to it's capital Barony. In this case he wants the City of Barcelona to be the capital, which means that it would be impossible to be Count of Barcelona without also being Baron of the City of Barcelona. Ideally he wants the County/Barony of Barcelona to be a Republic run by a Magistrate/Mayor.

This is historically accurate, but he's worried the game may not support such rampant Republicanism and the capital of Barcelona will have to be a feudal castle. Which could conceivably require a hereditary Count/Baron.

I don't think there'll be a problem, considering that at least one King-tier Republic exists in the preview copy SecretMaster plays. Venice must hold at least Baron and King-tier titles, which implies it can hold Count-tier titles and their corresponding capital Baronies as well. So at worst the Mayor of Barcelona will hold an ahistoric feudal castle Barony as capital of the province.

But this has not been confirmed by the devs, so it's possible my supposition is total BS.

As for question 1, I see no reason there wouldn't be special cultural titles for Republics. So our Magistracy/Mayorship could be Generalitat/Major in Catalan culture.

Nick

 

[Sir Leningrad]

Thanks for the replies. Thinking in what i had read in other threads, I presume nobles can't also be mayors even if having a city. That's why I don't know if the game would handle a duchy like a "city/republic" in terms of levies and taxes if the leader was a noble, even if the capital of the leading county and duchy are a city. Does it make sense? :happy:
Also I asume that if the capital of a county is a vassal city, not a city owned by a noble, this city can't be capital of the noble's holdings, wich is one of my worries.

 

[Jaol]

I'm not actually sure about nobles being mayors. It sounds like that's not going to be possible in vanilla, but it seems like the sort of thing that could probably be modded. As for how levies and taxes from a duchy-level republic, we'll have to see how Venice and Genoa work.

What exactly is the setup you're imagining? Is this city/duchy going to replace the County of Barcelona, or is the County going to exist separately? Basically how would you set it up if game mechanics weren't a problem?

 

[Nick B II]

This whole thread is starting to confuse me.

There won't be non-noble characters in CK2, at least if you define "non-noble" in any way that Medieval people would. By that standard all Republics will have noble leaders.

The only way in which any CK2 character won't be noble is that the heads of Republics can't inherit other titles. This is apparently an attempt to fix a notorious exploit in CK1: you could send a high martial child to Venice to be fostered, and he'd be likely to become the next Doge -- especially if you killed off the rest of the candidates (aka: Venetian Court). If he then inherited your main Kingdom Venice would be a subsidiary title to your main Crown. I'm not convinced this particular feature will make it into the final copy, because a) it creates another exploit (make your dumbest son a Mayor and you won't have to deal with him as King),and b) it's only been confirmed from preview copies, not dev statements.

So Sir Leningrad, your Republican state will be possible. It will have a noble ruler, who will function as any other character in the game, except his ability to inherit feudal titles. We have some ideas how taxation and levies work, but a) we have few details and b)we have no idea exactly how the announced features for playable feudal states will work in an unplayable Republic.

Nick

 

[Sir Leningrad]

By non-noble I meant "landed nobles", not "patricians". I understand that republics were leaded by nobles, but it's just the kind of noble that doesn't come to your mind easily when you think about nobles. To answer Jaol's question, my preferred setup would be the historical: The King of Aragon being king of various kingdoms and the lands of Catalonia. The kingdoms would be just the tipical feudal kingdoms, but in the case of Catalonia I would set up it like this:

-"Barony" of Barcelona as a city and capital of the County of Barcelona, ruled by a Council of artisans and patricians
-The county of Barcelona ruled by a viscount
-The "duchy", as the principality of Catalonia ruled as a "republic" presided by a council formed by a noble, a patrician and a bishop presiding it
-And me as a king ruling over it with capital in the Barcelona barony

With the information I have, this would be simply impossible, but things could be simplified:
-"Barony" and county of Barcelona ant the "duchy" of Catalonia with a city as a capital, all ruled by a Major
-Me as king with capital in the barony and county of Zaragoza, at the "duchy" of Aragon

It's just that despite not directly ruling over Barcelona, I'd like to have my capital in it, like it happened historically. I know I'm probably asking too much, but well, asking is free!

 

[unmerged(411215)]

it creates another exploit (make your dumbest son a Mayor and you won't have to deal with him as King),and b) it's only been confirmed from preview copies, not dev statements.

The devs have already confirmed that you can remove your heir from the line of succession by making him mayor

 

[Nick B II]

Your set-up sounds like the only possible solution in CK2. The Barony Barcelona can only be the capital of the person who is actually baron of Barcelona; moreover councils can't really be set as rulers (except perhaps for Regencies).

Hopefully there'll be a republics DLC that makes council-government more possible.

Perhaps you could divide Barcelona into several baronies and use a different Barcelona for each capital? So the King's capital would be the Royal Castle of Barcelona, the Republic's would be the City of Barcelona, and the Viscount would rule from the Viscomital castle? The issue there would be mostly game-balance. After all a a three-Barony Barcelona has triple the troops of a one-Barony Barcelona, and I'm not sure that's appropriate.

Nick

 

[Jaol]

Perhaps you could divide Barcelona into several baronies and use a different Barcelona for each capital? So the King's capital would be the Royal Castle of Barcelona, the Republic's would be the City of Barcelona, and the Viscount would rule from the Viscomital castle? The issue there would be mostly game-balance. After all a a three-Barony Barcelona has triple the troops of a one-Barony Barcelona, and I'm not sure that's appropriate.

Hopefully, there'll be a way to mod the size of levies, etc. so it might be able to have 3 "Barcelona"s without messing with game balance.

 

[Culise]

The devs have already confirmed that you can remove your heir from the line of succession by making him mayor

I wonder, will the son fight back by starting a plot or becoming a viable pretender along with any other conspirators? I can't imagine someone looking forward to becoming King settling peaceably for being shuffled off to mayor of some podunk republic. If successful, he'd renounce the mayorship and take up your title.

 

[unmerged(411215)]

I wonder, will the son fight back by starting a plot or becoming a viable pretender along with any other conspirators? I can't imagine someone looking forward to becoming King settling peaceably for being shuffled off to mayor of some podunk republic. If successful, he'd renounce the mayorship and take up your title.

One of the reviews said that the son will actually become more loyal because the AI considers getting the mayor's job a success even if he was previously heir to the Kingdom...

In my opinion the AI should always remember being disinherited or backstabbed by family. Too bad the AI is just using dynamic variables and doesn't have any memory.

 

[Jaol]

One of the reviews said that the son will actually become more loyal because the AI considers getting the mayor's job a success even if he was previously heir to the Kingdom...

In my opinion the AI should always remember being disinherited or backstabbed by family. Too bad the AI is just using dynamic variables and doesn't have any memory.

That should be moddable, I think. Either these character will still have a claim, or we can add a modifier to record that they once were in line for a throne, and either should be usable as triggers for plots, etc.