Generalissimo Francisco Franco is not yet dead!

[Ebusitanus]

Originally posted by Boshko
"The popular front was basically socialist and communist. "
Not before the civil war, Azana and later Quiroga were democratic liberals as were ALL the cabinet members until the Caballero government.

Please read the link I provided above regarding the make up of the Popular Front and who voted for them.

The legion was decent, but it was still mostly spanish farm-boys while the Moroccans grew up in an extremally violent culture and lived through the Rif war (where the Rif beat the Spanish while outnumbered by as much as 5:1).

The Legion was a direct result of the disaster of the Anual in the 20´and were a very tough bunch of guys. Those same "farm boys" were the ones who tore through the Morrocans at Alucemas later on. They had certainly nothing to envy the Morrocan soldier. Moreinover the Morrocan regulars were still basically just a colonial army type with Spanish officers mostly. Reckless and cruel but I don´t know if you are using their individual courage as a meassure (Franco had a good habit of using them as "cheap" cannon fodder) or their divisional operational habilities.

 

[Sturmovik]

The legion was decent, but it was still mostly spanish farm-boys while the Moroccans grew up in an extremally violent culture and lived through the Rif war (where the Rif beat the Spanish while outnumbered by as much as 5:1).

Well, like Ebusitanus said, when the rif beat our army, the Legion (or Tercio) doen´t exist. The Annual disaster never would happened if the troops would been "Legionarios"

They was much better than the moroccans regulars, really

 

[Boshko]

Please read the link I provided above regarding the make up of the Popular Front and who voted for them.

Your link says: "It is impossible to give figures for the parties since the electors voted for alliances and not for the parties who were allied" so we can't know who voted for who and in any case the Republican parties ended up with more seats than the Socialists and Communists, but most importatly not a single cabinet post was held by ANY socialists until the caballero government.

"Those same "farm boys" were the ones who tore through the Morrocans at Alucemas later on."
Ya well the french also had a bit to do with that

"just a colonial army type with Spanish officers mostly"
Ya, although there were a few spanish-trained berber officers but as colonial troops go they were damn good...

"Franco had a good habit of using them as "cheap" cannon fodder"
Yeah he sent them in the vanguard of most armies but they were hardly cheap, franco had to do fairly-large scale bribing of caids and whatnot to get the moroccans he wanted when he didn't have to do anything of the sort of draft spaniards, which says a lot about franco's opinion of the moroccan's military capability.

 

[unmerged(8915)]

Originally posted by snuggs


Ah but was it? A reactionary junta is not fascism - just ask Romania's Iron Guard. Fascism makes a nonsense of the left/right divide, since it drew in its day from both camps and all classes. So many inter-war fascist leaders started off on the Left and so many inter-war socialist and communist icons of the modern left wing - Shaw, Stopes, DH Lawrence just for example's sake - held beliefs that would have resulted in their total ostracism from modern leftist circles. There was a lot of camp-swapping as the generation that fought WWI tried to make sense of the new order; Goebbels himself remarked how it was easier to turn a communist than a Social Democrat. Utopianism, anti-capitalism, futurism, socialism, the beauty of labour - not hard to see how the more radical tendencies fed off each other in ways the modern left wing might prefer not to remember.

not to mention benito started in the communist party of italy [before ww1, though]

 

[Ebusitanus]

Originally posted by Boshko
Your link says: "It is impossible to give figures for the parties since the electors voted for alliances and not for the parties who were allied"

True...then...

so we can't know who voted for who and in any case the Republican parties ended up with more seats than the Socialists and Communists, but most importatly not a single cabinet post was held by ANY socialists until the caballero government.

Err...If Esquerra catalana is anything close to what we have today then I´m pretty comfortable in calling them at least Socialists if not "worse". The other 26 are most likely the small splinter groups like POUM and the Anarchists who joined at the last moment. Hardly very republican majority.
The very fact of Azaña´s BIG problems was the huge masses the Communalizted Socialists and the Communists themselves who were dragging the country towards revolution. That Azaña made goverment with only his appointees does not detract of the big forces moving in the background.

Ya well the french also had a bit to do with that

That has nothing to do with the powress and elan of the Legion.

Ya, although there were a few spanish-trained berber officers but as colonial troops go they were damn good...

As I said...mostly Spanish lead. As colonial troops they were damn good. True.

Yeah he sent them in the vanguard of most armies but they were hardly cheap, franco had to do fairly-large scale bribing of caids and whatnot to get the moroccans he wanted when he didn't have to do anything of the sort of draft spaniards, which says a lot about franco's opinion of the moroccan's military capability.

We were not comparing them with untrained, unbrutalized average Spanish urbanites or "farm boys" but with the Legion. Franco used the Morrocans as expendable shock force. All which still does not address the point we were making in that nobody is denying that Morrocan troops were very efective individuals, reckless and brutal..We were talking about the operational value of them beyond playing "the horde".

 

[unmerged(9895)]

did I miss something or is this AAR STILL not finished?

 

[Boshko]

If Esquerra catalana is anything close to what we have today then I´m pretty comfortable in calling them at least Socialists if not "worse".

Nope, Companys was a liberal.

The other 26 are most likely the small splinter groups like POUM and the Anarchists who joined at the last moment.

No, they were small republican parties, the POUM didn't have any seats IIRC and the anarchists didn't have any candidates.

Hardly very republican majority.

Republican parties held a majority of Popular Front seats, and as I've said a couple times every singe cabinent post.

That has nothing to do with the powress and elan of the Legion.

Well the Moroccans the Legion had to fight were one that were just a bit worn down down from all the french invading from the south.

Franco used the Morrocans as expendable shock force.

Shock force yes, expendable not necessarily, the nationalist just didn't have that many other troops early on that could be used as shock troops effectively.

We were talking about the operational value of them beyond playing "the horde".

There's general consensus that they had excellent discipline and remained cool under fire, (probably partly a carry-over from them having a tradition of going to algeria and working for colons there, often Spaniards near Oran, and spending part of the year working very hard and not making any trouble for their employers) hardly a "horde."

Also they had the good luck of having fairly intelligent commanders, especially Yague.

 

[unmerged(3388)]

I know your busy...but I'd love to know how this AAR ended??.

Pleeeeease.

Cheers, Ice

 

[Ebusitanus]

Originally posted by Boshko
Republican parties held a majority of Popular Front seats, and as I've said a couple times every singe cabinent post.

You make it sound like that the PSOE and the Communists were a couple friends. Like they could not have gotten any cabinet posts if they would have not pushed for it. Giving Azaña free hand was more of a compromise with the national front as not to precipitate the civil war. A step the masses of Socialists and Communists took. Nevertheless the streets were taken by those same groups and its unions. There was hardly street battles between Liberal republicans and rightists. I don´t understand why you want to make us think that the Popular Front was some kind of liberal party conglomeration when it was at least half Communist-Socialist. If you look at it PSOE was the single most voted party among the Popular Front.

These folks marching here on the victory day are not liberals Boshko.

Well the Moroccans the Legion had to fight were one that were just a bit worn down down from all the french invading from the south.

This is just argument for the sake of argument. To compare the fighting powress of the Legion to the Regulares is a tad overdoing it. Among the few troops that saved Melilla after the Anual diaster in 1921 was just the Legion who forcemarched 100 km in one and a half day to embark in Ceuta to the belaguered city and went straight into battle retaking in short order numerous landmarks.

Shock force yes, expendable not necessarily, the nationalist just didn't have that many other troops early on that could be used as shock troops effectively.

Just look how much care did Franco have for them in the assault across the Manzanares and onto the University city in Madrid. They died in droves in WWI style assaults.

There's general consensus that they had excellent discipline and remained cool under fire. hardly a "horde."

The fame they had was precisely one of sheer brutality, rape, looting. Not for nothing they were so feared and fought against with so much hatred.

Also they had the good luck of having fairly intelligent commanders, especially Yague.

Yes, their Spanish officercorps was instrumental in making a fighting machine out of them.

 

[unmerged(9125)]

err; a question; is franco a Field General AND head of state? they can be combined? it will be handled like the Kings/generals in EU2; When an king can die in battle and continue ruling for a little time?

 

[Amadís de Gaula]

Not to mention the "Juventudes" (young affiliates), of the PSOE and the Commies merged, liderated by Santiago Carrillo. When his father blamed him (he was socialist) he then said he had no father but Stalin.

Frente Popular liberals...not certainly their supporters. In fact there were few liberals.

 

[Amadís de Gaula]

Blackmamuth, he was so but at the end of September 1936. Before that, Mola commanded the forces in the North and Franco in the South.

 

[Duritz]

Sorry to interupt chaps but has anyone seen a Spanish AAR around here anywhere?

I swear it was here a second ago, I turned my head and **poof**, no AAR!

Seriously guys, is this still progressing?

Duritz.

 

[InnocentIII]

Originally posted by Duritz
Sorry to interupt chaps but has anyone seen a Spanish AAR around here anywhere?

Ditto.

 

[unmerged(8915)]

i think the aar itself is done, but the show must go on!

 

[Boshko]

You make it sound like that the PSOE and the Communists were a couple friends

I do?

Like they could not have gotten any cabinet posts if they would have not pushed for it.

If they demanded cabinet post either the popular front wouldn't have formed or wouldn't have won probably...

I don´t understand why you want to make us think that the Popular Front was some kind of liberal party conglomeration

I don't, I just think the government was liberal.

They died in droves in WWI style assaults.

Well Franco really wanted Madrid and the Regulares were the only troops Franco could really count on to charge WWI-style and not break (and they kept on doing it at Jarama). And yeah, they died in droves.

Yes, their Spanish officercorps was instrumental in making a fighting machine out of them.

Right.

 

[unmerged(10262)]

At least wouldn´t I sell Spain wehn playing any of the allied countrys for peace as the allies did

 

[L G]

Is this aar done too?

 

[dsteve3]

Boshko and Ebusitanus, thanks for the lively debate!

This is a great example of how we re-historise (not you two, but all of us). We catagorize the SCW with 'facists and communists' not because it was them that fought, but because it was them that we (the western democrasies) have entrenched in our minds as being the global antagonists. Imagine a world where the facists defeat the Soviet Union and win a peace with the U.S. and Britian. With communism defeated, would we remember it the same? The confusion of titles masks the real situation.

It shows how labels blur reality instead of clarifying. We put so much on these terms which really are little more than rally cries. The actualities highlight confrontation between peoples, grouped together for strength and identity, but in truth individuals with their own identities and free will.

I feel there are many profound lessons in that early conflict that belie the nature of how we superimpose these arbitrary terms. I still feel that the corporations who produced armaments, then and today, are and were the real 'winners' with the rest of us paying the price!

 

[Amadís de Gaula]

BTW russian tanks arrived in Spain in October 1936 and were used in the Seseña battle that month, a battle lost by Cl. Pavlov against the calvary of Cl. Monasterio.

Yes, one on the few battles calvary defeated tanks. In that battle the coctel-molotov was invented.