General Criticism Thread

[seattle]

What about PDS delaying the release of an unpolished game for nearly an entire year to provide free bug fixes and general improvements instead of just releasing Fallout 4... I mean HoI 4?
Yeah, that one was a d*ck move... we should seriously be hating on PDS for trying their very best to deliver a quality release while covering all expenses. That alone warrants criticism of the game well before its eventual release. Screw them, they should have gone the Peter Molyneux route: promise heaven, release crap instead of those pesky delays!

 

[Sparrow]

What about PDS delaying the release of an unpolished game for nearly an entire year to provide free bug fixes and general improvements instead of just releasing Fallout 4... I mean HoI 4?
Yeah, that one was a d*ck move... we should seriously be hating on PDS for trying their very best to deliver a quality release while covering all expenses. That alone warrants criticism of the game well before its eventual release. Screw them, they should have gone the Peter Molyneux route: promise heaven, release crap instead of those pesky delays!

I'm hoping that's because the revenue stream has become such that they can afford to do this now. However there is also the issue that people where starting to hold off on purchasing until after an expansion or two was released and major mods provided much flavor. The latter is just my opinion and I admit I am probably wrong for the sake of argument. Which means I hope the former to be the truth because that means...VICKIE III: 1200AD-1966AD.

 

[flier123]

As someone pointed out earlier in this thread, when a government builds a ship, tank, airplane, etc., they completely write off a certain portion of their oil reserves for the lifetime of that unit. Not to mention that not having oil makes ship construction take nearly 3-4 times the length of time to build a new ship, making oil a strategic resource rather than an operational one.

You are telling me that the Japanese navy should be able to continue running at peak efficiency with no fuel reserves? That makes no sense at all. Stop being silly

It's not like when a nation builds a carrier they designate a certain amount of fuel they already have to that carrier and it cannot be used elsewhere. That is just ridiculous. They write off a certain amount of fuel that they will receive later to that carrier. Not just fuel they have when they build it.

 

[scroggin]

This is the thing really - as long as the system they go with is one that makes oil sources desirable and oil shortages bad for your war machine, it's a step up from HoI3 where you just made a big stockpile pre-war which never ran out.

I dont really care if one unrealistic system is better than another. I would like a realistic system. HOI4 gives us a system where ships need the same amount of oil set aside at manufacture regardless of whether they spend the war in port get sunk within days of commision or spend most of the war at sea.

 

[GundamMerc]

I dont really care if one unrealistic system is better than another. I would like a realistic system. HOI4 gives us a system where ships need the same amount of oil set aside at manufacture regardless of whether they spend the war in port get sunk within days of commision or spend most of the war at sea.

So would you also like to keep track of nuts, bolts; whether you have not just food, but sufficient vegetables, protein, and bread; clean water for drinking, non-potable water for industrial uses, whether you have sufficient caskets and bodybags for all of the inevitable casualties of war, etc.? That would be just the tip of the iceberg for us to even get close to realistic.

 

[Nicolas I]

As someone pointed out earlier in this thread, when a government builds a ship, tank, airplane, etc., they completely write off a certain portion of their oil reserves for the lifetime of that unit. Not to mention that not having oil makes ship construction take nearly 3-4 times the length of time to build a new ship, making oil a strategic resource rather than an operational one.

To my knowledge, the practice to make provisions for use/maintenance for the lifetime of military equipment is rather contemporary, but I may be wrong. And since there are no stockpile in HOI4 how can you write-off oil from your nonexistent oil reserves ?

Besides, that assume that you can accurately evaluate the lifetime of equipment, which is much more easy in peace time that during a World War. With the proposed mechanic, when you lose a capital ship, that means you also lose years of its future oil consumption (accounted for when building it), which is utterly illogic. Does the game mechanic require you to destroy huge oil tanks by setting them on fire or to leak them in the drain each time you lose a capital ship, just to comply with the system ?

Since when you need huge amount of oil to build ships ? I thought it took metal and steel.

Why a shortage of oil should make shipbuilding taking 3-4 times more ? Because the workers have to walk to the shipyard instead of using their cars ?

 

[scroggin]

So would you also like to keep track of nuts, bolts; whether you have not just food, but sufficient vegetables, protein, and bread; clean water for drinking, non-potable water for industrial uses, whether you have sufficient caskets and bodybags for all of the inevitable casualties of war, etc.? That would be just the tip of the iceberg for us to even get close to realistic.

Well since they have decided oil is important enough to have in the game the mechanics of storage and use should be realistic

 

[Denkt]

No matter what realism argument you bring it I doubt the developers will change their mind. Well they may do a fuel dlc but the possible bad press that would give is probably not something they want.

In the end this is formost a grand strategy game and the developers decided that the fuel system of old was not a good thing for the game so they did the right thing and removed it.

 

[Nicolas I]

So would you also like to keep track of nuts, bolts; whether you have not just food, but sufficient vegetables, protein, and bread; clean water for drinking, non-potable water for industrial uses, whether you have sufficient caskets and bodybags for all of the inevitable casualties of war, etc.? That would be just the tip of the iceberg for us to even get close to realistic.

That is a blatant fallacy. Implementing oil because it was a major strategic, logistic and operational feature of WW2 doesn't imply you have include in the game nuts, bolts, caskets...

If we follow your argument, as we have to build tanks, planes, truck, small arms, guns, support equipment, we should also have to include in the game nuts, bolts, caskets...

 

[Marfach]

So would you also like to keep track of nuts, bolts; whether you have not just food, but sufficient vegetables, protein, and bread; clean water for drinking, non-potable water for industrial uses, whether you have sufficient caskets and bodybags for all of the inevitable casualties of war, etc.? That would be just the tip of the iceberg for us to even get close to realistic.

This is an absurd notion.

Oil should be tracked because it was central to the strategic goals of every faction in World War 2 and was in fact the primary reason Japan entered the war.
The Luftwaffe were beaten not by killing all of the German Pilots or by destroying planes faster than they could be built, they were beaten by restricting Germany's fuel supply forcing them to ground the majority of their air force for the late period of the war.
Similarly, as I have said before in either this thread or others, only 7 Japanese Capital ships (6 carriers and the Yamoto) were sunk in WW2 out of a total of 27 (12 Battleships and 15 Carriers) yet Despite this still enormous, modern and Highly skilled fleet the Allies achieved complete Naval Superiority in the Far East. How? By cutting the Japanese off from fuel and forcing their Navy to remain in Port.
How can the IJN or Kriegsmarine ever hope to sink the RN? Or the USAN? The only feasible way of destroying a Navy like that is by cutting off its access to something critical to its operation, now, you could use vegetables or clean water, or you could use the sensible option: Fuel.
Adding fuel to the game and the ability to cut an opponent off from it is not only realistic but adds strategic depth. Something I would think is pretty important in a Grand Strategy game.
However, there is an entire Stickied thread dedicated to this so maybe we should take the discussion there.
The OOB, Partisans and plenty of other issues are still on topic here.

 

[Nicolas I]

...Like I said, I'm disappointed, but accepting of the situation. I'm skeptical we'll have the modding tools to create a real fuel supply system, but am definitely interested to see what the community comes up with as a response.

I'm also disappointed. That being said, despite not ideal, the proposed system somewhat works for tanks and planes as you replace them and using oil doing that sort of simulate fuel use. That could also somewhat work for submarines and destroyers.

The main problem is for capital ships. That could be solved by requiring less huge amount of oil to build them, but adding a "naval supplies" equipment requiring oil to build that would be used by ships. The naval supplies equipment would have attrition, requiring to be replaced, simulating fuel use by ships that way.

 

[Marfach]

Like I said, I'm disappointed, but accepting of the situation. I'm skeptical we'll have the modding tools to create a real fuel supply system, but am definitely interested to see what the community comes up with as a response.

Considering the controversy surrounding the fuel topic, I would be shocked if Paradox didn't give us some means of fixing it through mods. The developers are not idiots. Hearts of Iron 3 has a strong following and cult fan-base 10 years after release, they will want the same for HoI4 and the best way to do that is give it as much mod support as possible.
I personally think we will see several slightly different but still comprehensive 'fixes' to the fuel issue within a few weeks of release, there are already several threads dedicated to possible ways of modding it in and we are still a month from release.
I think it is a shame it isnt included in the base game, but as soon as I see a working fuel mod I will be buying this game and I dont expect to have to wait until July.

 

[The Balbinater]

Hearts of Iron 3 has a strong following and cult fan-base 10 years after release

HoI3 was a joke and the less said of it the better....we must all PRAY to the dear lords of strategy games above that this game does not echo it, or its totally botched release...

you guys who worship 3 clearly were not around for it when it came out...

 

[Daffius]

you guys who worship 3 clearly were not around for it when it came out...

Wait, so because a game was released crappy, it cannot have a fan base after 4 dlc's and a bucket load of patches? Good logic. Also, I like 3 and I was here... fwiw.

As for oil, unfortunately I don't believe mods are able to fix it. The whole design concept was built around not having oil as supply and if a mod could 'fix it', I'm sure it would be in the base game already. I'm not too hopeful of a fuel dlc either, especially reading this thread with people saying thing like, I quote: "Having an extra concept like Oil Reserves and Oil Depletion (if oil land or trade is lost to enemy) to be quite frank would be TEDIOUSLY BORING". If this is indeed the type of gamer they cater to, then fine, just make it clear.

To clarify, I don't think it's a bad game design, however it's an abstract concept. I think it's just a difference between gamer preferences and those that liked "tedious" details with OOB's and supplies and etc are obviously kicking and screaming instead of letting go.

 

[Cardus]

And to the poster above, yes I really do miss the OOB and division - corps - army - army-group commander streamlining, something I've raised in threads on here before. I do hope it will be easy to mod in and become a day 1 mod.

The same here. I do miss as well air units and brigades (and in a wonderful mod battalions)

 

[Cardus]

Speaking from a purely gaming experience the whole partisans thing was the most annoying feature in any game I have ever experienced. Literally thousands of annoying mouse clicks that served absolutely no purpose what-so-ever.

Then if you strayed off the scripted path God help you! You'd spend more time clicking against partisans than you would the enemy.

Paradox got it correct in 4 no doubt
I play a game to have fun. Clicking the mouse thousands upon thousands of times for something that was at no point, was ever well fun, got old real fast.

#2 How are they going to sell more copies if one of the ways I would have to explain the game to someone who has never played it and was thinking of buying it......
"You like clicking your mouse?"
"You like taking your time fighting a war with planes, tanks and ships or would you rather spend far too much of your gaming time clicking the mouse thousands of times on something (partisans) that will never ever develop into anything in the game you are playing other than an annoying click fest of nothingness?"

#3 With all the modding, all of the ways countries can (and should) go off script in 4, the world tension, world domination, sand box etc. there is no way in hell anyone would have enjoyed that monstrous click fest.

#4 Multiplayer. Nuff said

Just my humble opinion. I am so happy that partisans are a thing of the past, so happy.

Well the fact that it was annoying in the past it doesn't mean that now the system is much better. In the Balkans the Axis had about 50 divisions to take care of partisans and they were not enough to suppress them. How the new system is reflecting this?

 

[scroggin]

Considering the controversy surrounding the fuel topic, I would be shocked if Paradox didn't give us some means of fixing it through mods. The developers are not idiots. Hearts of Iron 3 has a strong following and cult fan-base 10 years after release, they will want the same for HoI4 and the best way to do that is give it as much mod support as possible.
I personally think we will see several slightly different but still comprehensive 'fixes' to the fuel issue within a few weeks of release, there are already several threads dedicated to possible ways of modding it in and we are still a month from release.
I think it is a shame it isnt included in the base game, but as soon as I see a working fuel mod I will be buying this game and I dont expect to have to wait until July.

There is no way I will wait past day one for this game. There are just too many great features in it for me to delay buying it till there is a fix for the fuel use issue. I might laugh at how ridiculess it is to need oil each time I build a ship but I will still play it for all the other cool features.

 

[Cardus]

Full-blown insurrection by the population against an occupier? Preposterous! Impossible!

And this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Uprising
List of Italian Partisan Republics

• Republic of Alba (10 October - 2 November)
• Republic of Alto Monferrato (September - 2 December)
• Republic of Alto Tortonese (September - December)
• Republic of Bobbio (7 July - 27 August)
• Republic of Cassiglio (July - September)
• Republic of Carnia (26 September - 10 October)
• Republic of Carniola (2 February - March 1944)
• Republic of Oriental Friuli (30 June - September)
• Republic of Pigna (IM) (18 September 1944 - 8 October 1944)
• Republic of the Langhe (September - November)
• Republic of Montefiorino (17 June - 1º August)
• Republic of Ossola (10 September - 23 October)
• Republic of Torriglia (26 June - 27 November)
• Republic of the Ceno Valley (10 June - 11 July)
• Republic of the Enza Valley and the Parma Valley (June - July)
• Republic of the Maira Valley and the Varaita Valley (June - 21 August)
• Republic of the Taro Valley (15 June - 24 July)
• Republic of the Lanzo Valley (25 June - September)
• Republic of the Sesia Valley (11 June - 10 July)
• Republic of Varzi (19/24 September - 29 November)

6000 Germans surrendering to the partisans in Genova

 

[BelgarionNL]

just wanted to say: EXCELLENT thread. its great to have all the criticism in one place so modders (and PDS) can fix them with mods and dlc!

 

[Marfach]

just wanted to say: EXCELLENT thread. its great to have all the criticism in one place so modders (and PDS) can fix them with mods and dlc!

Thank you, it descended a little into the oil topic which there is already a stickied thread for, but that is probably my fault for mentioning it in the OP.

There is no way I will wait past day one for this game. There are just too many great features in it for me to delay buying it till there is a fix for the fuel use issue. I might laugh at how ridiculess it is to need oil each time I build a ship but I will still play it for all the other cool features.

Thats fine, I dont have an issue with others buying the game, but Im voting with my wallet, the way consumers should.

HoI3 was a joke and the less said of it the better

Do you really believe that? We are talking about its successor here. HoI3 was in poor condition 10 years ago when paradox was not the PC gaming power it is today with a successful publishing arm and several cult classic grand strategy games. The architecture also allowed for modders to give the game ever more replayability, so much so that mod compatibility has been a big goal for Paradox in making HoI4.

The same here. I do miss as well air units and brigades (and in a wonderful mod battalions)

Considering Paradox want to reduce the learning curve, removing air unit commanders was definitely a good choice, it did not have the streamlining and optimization possibilities of the Army OOB which could already have been improved in a lot of ways (people cite HQ ranges etc)
Overall though, I want the OOB back, especially with the new 5 trait system. So no more jack of all trades super commanders in charge of your Afrika Korps.

6000 Germans surrendering to the partisans in Genova

Bookmarking this for future partisan discussions.
Although, I do think the new partisan system is excellent, without military police your factories will be destroyed and nations aligned with the Partisans will have near full knowledge of all military activity in the area. A perfect balance imo. My only gripe is it only occurs in a nation if they were conquered while part of a faction.
The issue I see with this is, If you play as France and form the little Entente in say a Multiplayer game and are defeated, there will be no Partisans in France, and no means for the British to encourage/fund/create Partisans in France because they cannot invite France to the Allies. I personally think it should be possible to posthumously invite a nation to your faction so as to trigger Partisan growth, this would create Partisans in all non-core provinces, which is much more realistic. I can't ever see the Polish for example simply rolling over and accepting their new German Overlords with a smile.