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Marfach

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I'm going to begin this by saying HoI3 was not a perfect game, and almost all the problems in that game such as near infinite stockpiles and the German army hopping the channel before the smoke cleared over Paris have been fixed.
The new naval and air system and new equipment systems are great and create a great architecture for modders to work with.
However, some features just seem poorly implemented, most infamously the Oil 'flow' that there is an entire stickied thread dedicated to. There is also the lack of air supply which is frustrating because of how important it was both in HoI3 and in WW2.

I think there are some other issues in this game too, and I would ask the community to share their criticisms in this thread and talk them out or suggest alternatives. It really isnt too late to fix a lot of the smaller problems people bring up.

One particularly 'gamey' tactic became very obvious during the WWW single player campaigns as Daniel hoped to annex nations Before they could join a faction. By doing this these areas had no Government in exile and therefore no Partisans. This is absurd and gamey and a much better system would be to add partisans in any province you do not have Cores in and cause partisans to grow faster if there is a Government in Exile.

In the Hungary games, it became very obvious how important properly equipped troops were, however, it also highlighted a number of AI flaws:

Firstly, Nations should begin rearming if a neighbor becomes aggressive, so if I am Yugoslavia and Hungary invades Austria, I should immediately prioritize building military equipment. Czechoslovakia should have done the same. This should also be linked to world tension, so if I am Turkey or Norway I might not care that Hungary is on a rampage in Central Europe, but the increase in world tension should cause an Increase in the militarization of these states. This has real world analogues in the Turks who didn't participate in WW2 but were still completely mobilized during it in case of an invasion.

Secondly, The AI should not assume any Neutral nation with a common enemy to be a friend. This allowed Hungary with its infantry only army, poor tech and dwindling manpower to make it all the way to Berlin as the Germans assumed they were on the same side. AI should be somewhat suspicious of any nation not in their faction, but less suspicious of those with a common enemy.

There were also some general AI issues like the lack of coordination between allied powers in their invasions of croatia, and what looked to me to be a mismanagement of air power on the part of the French, allowing many of their bombers to be shot down, although this could be because early French Fighters simply didn't have the range to secure Hungary's skies.
The other issue is the French moving out of the Maginot line forts and allowing the Germans to occupy them but Daniel highlighted this to the AI developer.
 
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Orlunu

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General criticism?

Zhukov was far too free with spending his men. Just because you won't run out doesn't mean you should throw them away, doing so the the extent that he did caused massive problems with organisation and morale, making them far less efficient and often meaning that they actually achieved their objectives slower than they would have if he'd been less eager to throw ever more into the meat grinder.
 
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JerkyJerry

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There are no partisans in 4 that you can see
 
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Marfach

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There are no partisans in 4 that you can see
Partisan effects include reducing IC efficiency and destroying factories, this only occurs in lands taken from a nation which has a government in exile.

General criticism?

Zhukov was far too free with spending his men. Just because you won't run out doesn't mean you should throw them away, doing so the the extent that he did caused massive problems with organisation and morale, making them far less efficient and often meaning that they actually achieved their objectives slower than they would have if he'd been less eager to throw ever more into the meat grinder.

Thanks for a knowingly off-topic post.
 
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JerkyJerry

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Partisan effects include reducing IC efficiency and destroying factories, this only occurs in lands taken from a nation which has a government in exile.

I agree with you it makes perfect sense
 
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Marfach

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Posting a thread designed to generally criticize the game is a bad idea mate.
I'm being polite, and I thought constructive, if it's a bad idea it will die, I won't bump it any more than this if nobody else is contributing.
The idea was to raise issues visible in the streams that developers may have overlooked or not seen as a problem.

And to the poster above, yes I really do miss the OOB and division - corps - army - army-group commander streamlining, something I've raised in threads on here before. I do hope it will be easy to mod in and become a day 1 mod.
 
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JerkyJerry

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Denkt

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One particularly 'gamey' tactic became very obvious during the WWW single player campaigns as Daniel hoped to annex nations Before they could join a faction.
It is not gamey because that is the whole point of world tension. Germany, Japan, Italy and Soviet union do not have a monopoly on increasing world tension.

In the Hungary games, it became very obvious how important properly equipped troops were
Which is a very good thing because under equipped divisions are supposed to be wastly inferior.

Firstly, Nations should begin rearming if a neighbor becomes aggressive, so if I am Yugoslavia and Hungary invades Austria, I should immediately prioritize building military equipment.
The ai do respond to aggresive nations but it do take a long time to mobilize an economy.

Secondly, The AI should not assume any Neutral nation with a common enemy to be a friend. This allowed Hungary with its infantry only army, poor tech and dwindling manpower to make it all the way to Berlin as the Germans assumed they were on the same side. AI should be somewhat suspicious of any nation not in their faction, but less suspicious of those with a common enemy.
At the time Germany was at war with several nations and was very quick at reacting then Hungary decelared war.

However, some features just seem poorly implemented, most infamously the Oil 'flow' that there is an entire stickied thread dedicated to.
In my opinion this is a very good change as it actually make access to oil important at all time.

There is also the lack of air supply which is frustrating because of how important it was both in HoI3 and in WW2.
If there is no good way of implementing it, remove it.
 
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Marfach

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It is not gamey because that is the whole point of world tension. Germany, Japan, Italy and Soviet union do not have a monopoly on increasing world tension.
It is gamey because without cores partisans should still create problems for an occupying nation, can you imagine the Polish simply sitting still and accepting their new German overlords? My issue isnt with the faction joining, just the lack of partisans for extra-factional states. It also means it makes more sense to annex all of say China than to take the coastline as the Japanese historically did.
I hope you are right that it was the speed at which the wars started that prevented them from properly mobilizing. (Romania did put up a fight)

Yes, they were quick to react, but Hungary still made it to Berlin, some attempt to man the border would have prevented this, you can see how it is exploitable, particularly if those German troops were in Moscow rather than the Rhineland.

I won't get into this considering there is an entire thread stickied for the oil issue.

Personally, I thought it was fine in HoI3, I know they wanted to remove capital sniping but I can only assume the changes we've seen to naval invasions also apply to air invasions. I'm not particularly bothered by the lack of air supply personally, but I will likely install any mods that allow it.
 
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Denkt

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It is gamey because without cores partisans should still create problems for an occupying nation, can you imagine the Polish simply sitting still and accepting their new German overlords?
Im not completely sure why the developers have made partisans go away if there is no government representing the nation but it could be to help the aggresive nations in the early game.

Yes, they were quick to react, but Hungary still made it to Berlin, some attempt to man the border would have prevented this, you can see how it is exploitable, particularly if those German troops were in Moscow rather than the Rhineland.

I doubt Germany would leave Berlin undefended even if they are at war with the Soviet union, even then it seems like redeployment is very fast (probably because it helps the ai alot as it do not have the strategic abilities of humans) so German can probably put up quite some resistance like in the Hungary stream.
 

podcat

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It is gamey because without cores partisans should still create problems for an occupying nation
non-core areas are limited to 50% of their industry slots. So its like gentlest partisan activity without sabotage etc
 
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JerkyJerry

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Im not completely sure why the developers have made partisans go away if there is no government representing the nation but it could be to help the aggresive nations in the early game.

Speaking from a purely gaming experience the whole partisans thing was the most annoying feature in any game I have ever experienced. Literally thousands of annoying mouse clicks that served absolutely no purpose what-so-ever.

Then if you strayed off the scripted path God help you! You'd spend more time clicking against partisans than you would the enemy.

Paradox got it correct in 4 no doubt
I play a game to have fun. Clicking the mouse thousands upon thousands of times for something that was at no point, was ever well fun, got old real fast.

#2 How are they going to sell more copies if one of the ways I would have to explain the game to someone who has never played it and was thinking of buying it......
"You like clicking your mouse?"
"You like taking your time fighting a war with planes, tanks and ships or would you rather spend far too much of your gaming time clicking the mouse thousands of times on something (partisans) that will never ever develop into anything in the game you are playing other than an annoying click fest of nothingness?"

#3 With all the modding, all of the ways countries can (and should) go off script in 4, the world tension, world domination, sand box etc. there is no way in hell anyone would have enjoyed that monstrous click fest.

#4 Multiplayer. Nuff said

Just my humble opinion. I am so happy that partisans are a thing of the past, so happy.
 
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Marfach

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Speaking from a purely gaming experience the whole partisans thing was the most annoying feature in any game I have ever experienced. Literally thousands of annoying mouse clicks that served absolutely no purpose what-so-ever.

Then if you strayed off the scripted path God help you! You'd spend more time clicking against partisans than you would the enemy.

Paradox got it correct in 4 no doubt
I play a game to have fun. Clicking the mouse thousands upon thousands of times for something that was at no point, was ever well fun, got old real fast.

#2 How are they going to sell more copies if one of the ways I would have to explain the game to someone who has never played it and was thinking of buying it......
"You like clicking your mouse?"
"You like taking your time fighting a war with planes, tanks and ships or would you rather spend far too much of your gaming time clicking the mouse thousands of times on something (partisans) that will never ever develop into anything in the game you are playing other than an annoying click fest of nothingness?"

#3 With all the modding, all of the ways countries can (and should) go off script in 4, the world tension, world domination, sand box etc. there is no way in hell anyone would have enjoyed that monstrous click fest.

#4 Multiplayer. Nuff said

Just my humble opinion. I am so happy that partisans are a thing of the past, so happy.
I actually like the new Partisan system, was just frustrated it didnt happen in factionless states when conquered

non-core areas are limited to 50% of their industry slots. So its like gentlest partisan activity without sabotage etc
Thank you for clearing this up, it makes a lot more sense now. Although would it not make sense to allow a nation like, say, Britain, to fund/supply partisans in an area like the Czech republic during the war to then trigger partisan growth?
Even If the mechanic were there but not implemented it would allow modders to make 'fund the partisans' National Foci. Which I hope is an option.

I doubt Germany would leave Berlin undefended even if they are at war with the Soviet union, even then it seems like redeployment is very fast (probably because it helps the ai alot as it do not have the strategic abilities of humans) so German can probably put up quite some resistance like in the Hungary stream.
Well, hopefully that aspect of the AI will be tweaked so nations can create small garrison divisions to man borders they dont deem a high threat without draining excessive manpower and equipment. In that Hungary campaign, had the Germans been in Moscow rather than the Rhineland it could have been catastrophic, considering how quickly Berlin fell.
 
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rutger9

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The one thing I would like to see improved is some form of fuel requirement for motorized,mechanized,planes and ships.
But considering a tonne of mods are planning on adding that already and paradox is probably already aware of the desire, I imagine it will be added in one way or another.
 
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LordOfWar16

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I dont really agree that air supply was crucial in ww2 at all. It was really inaccurate and you could never supply alot of troops via air. Even today it wouldnt be possible to supply an larger group via air alone, atleast not without an intact airfield.

One thing the devs could probably consider (if thats not already in) is that supply can also flow from airfield to airfield in addition to from harbour to harbour and state to state. So basicly if you hold on to a state that has a airfield that is surrounded by the enemy but you have air superiority you could bring in supplies with planes for example.

Maybe something that could be implemented post-launch to get an somewhat plausible and balanceable "air-supply" system @podcat ?
 
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sidders

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I totally agree about the lack of partisan activity in non-faction states. It's highly ahistorical and more importantly I don't think it looks like a good choice from gameplay perspective. There should be a trade-off to conquering lands, you should need to garrison it even if only lightly. As it is it's a pure positive aside from the WT impact, which may not even be a negative from the player's perspective.
 
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Bridger15

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I still don't get the whole oil thing. The game already simulates oil being super important. Just because it isn't tracked directly as fuel doesn't mean it's not important. There is absolutely *no* reason to add fuel to the game at this point. It would be double-penalizing a country. The supply of oil for a tank is baked into the cost of the equipment. When you use that equipment it takes attrition, which requires you to build more of it, which requires more oil. Low oil means slow equipment replacement which means your offensive stalls as your units do not have enough equipment to keep up the fight. This is exactly the outcome you'd expect if they ran out of fuel.

Boom, done. No problems. Stop arguing about it already :\
 
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