Gene Warriors should not be the top tier

[scaper12123]

While there are many major issues with ground combat, I think one major issue is the fact that Gene Warriors are the be-all and end-all. That's boring, in my opinion, because once you have them you can take defensive armies apart like abstract art. I think there shouldn't be a singular end point for armies, but three instead.

So here's the idea: Gene Warriors, Psi Warriors, and Androids should be on the same level in terms of combat capability. The catch is that each one should be extra suitable against a certain army type, which would add strategy and depth to ground combat. My suggestion is that Psi would beat Gene would beat Androids would beat Psi. (Psi could break the will of superwarriors easily, making their strength useless. Gene warriors could overpower robots easily, and robots could resist the effects of psionic manipulation.)

I also think there should be defensive armies of these variants to add more power to defensive armies, but that's a whole other issue.

 

[Blackplant]

I'm against the rock-paper-scissors approach, but having more types of defensive armies would be nice.

 

[iniudan]

Not that I don't agree with you that we could use other path to top tier soldier, but the at the same time the whole invasion system need to be rework, so no point in wasting time creating unit variety and balancing them on their own for the dev.

The only thing like Blackplant said is maybe defense variant of higher tier unit, just so you can garrison world without them appearing on the army list, that one an easy thing to do until we get a proper land warfare system rework, as it is basically copy pasting the defense unit and modifying values and can be done in a few minutes, if someone on the dev happen to have some downtime at some point, as defending with assault unit on multiple planet pretty much make the whole army portion of the side menu useless to find a specific assault unit that happen to be landed, at least those on transport ship are always on top, still giving some use to that tab.

But on a less "serious" note about this tread title...

 

[Daimonin]

While I agree with the initial premise that gene-warriors should not be the be-all-end-all, I must strongly disagree with the proposed change. If I wanted to play rock-paper-scissors, I wouldn't need a $45 game to do it.

 

[Daelyn75]

While I agree with the initial premise that gene-warriors should not be the be-all-end-all, I must strongly disagree with the proposed change. If I wanted to play rock-paper-scissors, I wouldn't need a $45 game to do it.

Agreed, no Rock Paper Scissors thanks.

 

[ORCACommander]

further compounded that psionics are rare techs so not everyone has access

 

[Aries666]

I don't see how rock-paper-scissor armies adds depth when I can just have a stronger economy and therefore more armies. I think Stellaris would he better off without ground combat as it is outside of the games pervue to do it properly.

 

[Chapter Serf]

Actually, I think ground combat should be streamlined a little bit, rather than complicated. As Aries666 mentioned, ground combat really isn't the focus of Stellaris as a whole. It's one small aspect.

If we're tossing out ideas, mine is to have just three armies, and those are the basic starting three: Assault, Defense, Garrison. Assault is the strongest and can be moved off world, Defense is the middle and can't be moved off world (but is cheaper) and Garrison is the crappiest but has the benefits of being free and insta-healed. Just like they are now. The difference is, instead of something like Gene Seed Purification or Synthetics giving us new army types, they instead just add to or put a multiplier on ground army performance across in some fashion. Perhaps Xenomorph Armies increases Morale Damage dealt, while Robot Armies increases health.

Space 4X games (either Grand Strategy or Turn-Based) aren't about playing rock/paper/scissors and microing troops in ground combat. They're about building the baddest Space Empire and blowing up the other Space Empires in the most spectacular and amazing ways possible.
My 5,000 Giga Cannons against your 5,000 Red Lasers? I'm there. Gimme a piece of that.
Me trying to determine if I need more Gene Warriors or Android Armies to overcome your Psi Warriors and Gene blargh. Just Blargh. Stop right there. Just gimme a bunch of Powered Armor infantry with Plasma Rifles, Xentronium Armor and Personal Deflector Shields to crush your Fusion Rifle wielding Marines and Armor. Then lemme get back to my 5,000 Giga Cannons.

 

[Kryndude]

While there are many major issues with ground combat, I think one major issue is the fact that Gene Warriors are the be-all and end-all. That's boring, in my opinion, because once you have them you can take defensive armies apart like abstract art. I think there shouldn't be a singular end point for armies, but three instead.

So here's the idea: Gene Warriors, Psi Warriors, and Androids should be on the same level in terms of combat capability. The catch is that each one should be extra suitable against a certain army type, which would add strategy and depth to ground combat. My suggestion is that Psi would beat Gene would beat Androids would beat Psi. (Psi could break the will of superwarriors easily, making their strength useless. Gene warriors could overpower robots easily, and robots could resist the effects of psionic manipulation.)

I also think there should be defensive armies of these variants to add more power to defensive armies, but that's a whole other issue.

That won't add any strategy. It'll only create the nuisance of having to micro-manage all three types of army.

 

[Ixal]

Actually, I think ground combat should be streamlined a little bit, rather than complicated. As Aries666 mentioned, ground combat really isn't the focus of Stellaris as a whole. It's one small aspect.

If we're tossing out ideas, mine is to have just three armies, and those are the basic starting three: Assault, Defense, Garrison. Assault is the strongest and can be moved off world, Defense is the middle and can't be moved off world (but is cheaper) and Garrison is the crappiest but has the benefits of being free and insta-healed. Just like they are now. The difference is, instead of something like Gene Seed Purification or Synthetics giving us new army types, they instead just add to or put a multiplier on ground army performance across in some fashion. Perhaps Xenomorph Armies increases Morale Damage dealt, while Robot Armies increases health.

Space 4X games (either Grand Strategy or Turn-Based) aren't about playing rock/paper/scissors and microing troops in ground combat. They're about building the baddest Space Empire and blowing up the other Space Empires in the most spectacular and amazing ways possible.
My 5,000 Giga Cannons against your 5,000 Red Lasers? I'm there. Gimme a piece of that.
Me trying to determine if I need more Gene Warriors or Android Armies to overcome your Psi Warriors and Gene blargh. Just Blargh. Stop right there. Just gimme a bunch of Powered Armor infantry with Plasma Rifles, Xentronium Armor and Personal Deflector Shields to crush your Fusion Rifle wielding Marines and Armor. Then lemme get back to my 5,000 Giga Cannons.

Better yet, remove ground combat completely and siege down planets by orbital bombardment or other means.

 

[Pyramid_Head]

There is nothing worse in the game mechanicsthan Rock-Paper -Scissors approach. Hard counters are one of that rare things which alone can ruin entire game mechanics. Armies have morale and I will not be surprised if some other stats that matters little because only attack and HP decides battles. There is no reason to build anything besided genes not only because they are top but because you won't be forced to build dozens of dozens of assault armies and can solvemost problems with just 10 transports, instead of endless spam.

 

[Avernite]

There is nothing worse in the game mechanicsthan Rock-Paper -Scissors approach. Hard counters are one of that rare things which alone can ruin entire game mechanics. Armies have morale and I will not be surprised if some other stats that matters little because only attack and HP decides battles. There is no reason to build anything besided genes not only because they are top but because you won't be forced to build dozens of dozens of assault armies and can solvemost problems with just 10 transports, instead of endless spam.

An army supplemented with psi warriors will routinely break morale of defenders and thus allow them to be easily killed.

Not perhaps as easy as gene warriors, but breaking a defenders' morale does help.

So I'd say rather than rock-paper-scissors I'd sooner call it 3 equal but different approaches. A psi army will break morale of the defenders and then mop them up, a gene army will annihilate armies that are still standing firm, and an android army may or may not break the defenders' morale, depending on other factors, before destroying them. Hard to balance, as it already is, but much more interesting to me than rock-paper-scissors.

Possibly made better by giving garrisons truly crappy morale, so a psi army will cut through them easily, but defence armies and especially other armies will stand firm for longer making gene warriors and androids a fair alternative that eventually becomes better.

 

[DAKOTA567]

Armor infantry with Plasma Rifles, Xentronium Armor and Personal Deflector Shields to crush your Fusion Rifle wielding Marines and Armor.

It's interesting that you make a "fusion" rifle out to be the less advanced thing, considering that plasma rifles are actually a possible thing in reality, but what the hell is a fusion rifle? And as per normal sci-fi convention, the thing that isn't based upon a real life possibility or uses silly wording is the more advanced one.

 

[Elfwind]

It's interesting that you make a "fusion" rifle out to be the less advanced thing, considering that plasma rifles are actually a possible thing in reality, but what the hell is a fusion rifle? And as per normal sci-fi convention, the thing that isn't based upon a real life possibility or uses silly wording is the more advanced one.

Hmm, so railgun rifle instead? =p I guess the Warhammer 40k melta thing is a fusion blowtorch or something. I'd think that'd kill the operator too though.

 

[Chapter Serf]

It's interesting that you make a "fusion" rifle out to be the less advanced thing, considering that plasma rifles are actually a possible thing in reality, but what the hell is a fusion rifle? And as per normal sci-fi convention, the thing that isn't based upon a real life possibility or uses silly wording is the more advanced one.

I was making a reference to Master of Orion 2. Fusion Rifles were the second weakest ground weapon (only beating Laser Rifles), whereas Plasma Rifles were the most powerful ground weapon.

Hmm, so railgun rifle instead? =p I guess the Warhammer 40k melta thing is a fusion blowtorch or something. I'd think that'd kill the operator too though.

Actually, I think Melta weapons are one of the few things that DON'T kill their operator in 40K.

 

[iniudan]

Actually, I think Melta weapons are one of the few things that DON'T kill their operator in 40K.

Pretty sure lasgun don't also, but that mostly because it basically a flashlight compared to other weapon in that universe.

 

[Elfwind]

Actually, I think Melta weapons are one of the few things that DON'T kill their operator in 40K.

Seems like it'd kill an operator without a hostile environment suit from the heat. =s

 

[DAKOTA567]

I was making a reference to Master of Orion 2.

Oh, never played it.

 

[dskod1]

Getting a bit off topic guys, the discussion is ground armies in stellaris.

EDIT: Talking about if melta weapon would kill a person in the 40k universe is not on topic.

Thanks,
Dylan

 

[Shachza]

While there are many major issues with ground combat, I think one major issue is the fact that Gene Warriors are the be-all and end-all. That's boring, in my opinion, because once you have them you can take defensive armies apart like abstract art. I think there shouldn't be a singular end point for armies, but three instead.

So here's the idea: Gene Warriors, Psi Warriors, and Androids should be on the same level in terms of combat capability. The catch is that each one should be extra suitable against a certain army type, which would add strategy and depth to ground combat. My suggestion is that Psi would beat Gene would beat Androids would beat Psi. (Psi could break the will of superwarriors easily, making their strength useless. Gene warriors could overpower robots easily, and robots could resist the effects of psionic manipulation.)

I also think there should be defensive armies of these variants to add more power to defensive armies, but that's a whole other issue.

I think you're forgetting that Xenomorphs are like Gene Warriors, but with everything cracked out on super-genetics, and not just a few, choice body parts.

The hive mind hungers...