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Cadzon

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Heir...jpg


Its fine to be gay but I need kids. I didn't think it was possible in this game...
 
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Sh** happens

that’s the moral of almost every PDS game
 
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Samitte

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Its fine to be gay but I need kids. I didn't think it was possible in this game...

Its a bug, can happen to female characters as well.

EDIT: The bug is that sometimes characters can get the option to marry characters of the same sex - which in the base game should never happen as this was profoundly against the basis of ancient elite family life. (And keep in mind our characters are almost entirely elites). Their duty was to produce offspring and continue the family - and preferably while married to someone of equal or greater standing that could rake in a hefty dowry.

Same sex relations should be relegated to the lovers function.
 
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IsaacCAT

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I would not say that being gay/lesbian is a bug. I suppose it was not common if at all in Greek and Roman cultures to accept homosexuality with their kings. If positive, they should adopt children as any other couple.

EDITED: @Herennius in the following post explains the issue with arrange marriage bug
 
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Herennius

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I would not say that being gay/lesbian is a bug. I suppose it was not common if at all in Greek and Roman cultures to accept homosexuality with their kings. If positive, they should adopt children as any other couple.

I agree from immersion/RL considerations that this shouldn't be a "bug", but technically it *is* one in IR, as that only happens since last version and if the polictical marriage interaction is used (where you ask a family head for a potential spouse). What makes it a bug is that IR generally features no same-sex relations (you might question that) and here that principle gets randomly broken - and that exception logically makes just no sense (why should a same-sex relationship - which is consequently not in the game - appear as result of arranged politcal marriage...and only then?) It's just highly illogical and unrealistic. If those relations are introduced (again, I would have no problem with it), then they need to be "worked in the game" like CK3 does it nicely (by e.g. attaching a sexuality trait to characters).
 
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Samitte

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I would not say that being gay/lesbian is a bug. I suppose it was not common if at all in Greek and Roman cultures to accept homosexuality with their kings. If positive, they should adopt children as any other couple.

Same sex relations vs same sex marriage are an entirely different topic though. Though for contexts sake I probably should have clarified my post a bit. But I'd be fine with characters having same sex lovers, could even create some interesting events, scandals and the likes. But they should still get married to the other sex and produce offspring - this was an important duty after all, especially to the part of society that make up our characters (the elite). Generally, marriage between same sex characters should never be allowed (but moddable, in case anyone wants to use this in a mod!) in the base game due to the importance of producing a heir to continue the family amongst the elites.

That doesn't mean ancient peoples did not have sexual and romantic relations outside of marriage - but modern conceptions of homosexuality are very different to ancient perceptions of same sex relationships. And in my opinion beyond same sex lovers and some associated events, I:R should just leave it at that. Especially X-sexual traits I hope wont make a return, since same sex relations in the ancient world did not automatically imply any kind of homo- or bisexuality.
 
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IsaacCAT

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Same sex relations vs same sex marriage are an entirely different topic though. Though for contexts sake I probably should have clarified my post a bit. But I'd be fine with characters having same sex lovers, could even create some interesting events, scandals and the likes. But they should still get married to the other sex and produce offspring - this was an important duty after all, especially to the part of society that make up our characters (the elite). Generally, marriage between same sex characters should never be allowed (but moddable, in case anyone wants to use this in a mod!) in the base game due to the importance of producing a heir to continue the family amongst the elites.

That doesn't mean ancient peoples did not have sexual and romantic relations outside of marriage - but modern conceptions of homosexuality are very different to ancient perceptions of same sex relationships. And in my opinion beyond same sex lovers and some associated events, I:R should just leave it at that. Especially X-sexual traits I hope wont make a return, since same sex relations in the ancient world did not automatically imply any kind of homo- or bisexuality.
Comming from you, I take it as historically accurate. Thank you!

It is true that we always tend to project our social framework to other ages, and that is not accurate.
 

Decius

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Same sex relations vs same sex marriage are an entirely different topic though. Though for contexts sake I probably should have clarified my post a bit. But I'd be fine with characters having same sex lovers, could even create some interesting events, scandals and the likes. But they should still get married to the other sex and produce offspring - this was an important duty after all, especially to the part of society that make up our characters (the elite). Generally, marriage between same sex characters should never be allowed (but moddable, in case anyone wants to use this in a mod!) in the base game due to the importance of producing a heir to continue the family amongst the elites.

That doesn't mean ancient peoples did not have sexual and romantic relations outside of marriage - but modern conceptions of homosexuality are very different to ancient perceptions of same sex relationships. And in my opinion beyond same sex lovers and some associated events, I:R should just leave it at that. Especially X-sexual traits I hope wont make a return, since same sex relations in the ancient world did not automatically imply any kind of homo- or bisexuality.

I'm not sure about this, but marriage wasn't even that much institutionalized in the antiquity (ancient Rome) - it was more a personal commitment between two people (and their families, as especially in the nobility strategic marriages were important and Rome was a patriarchy, where the father of a family - head of the family ;) - decided the faith on most topics for the family members). But the government didn't really enact laws for marriage as this became more and more a thing since the middle ages (first religious "laws" than government laws) until today. Divorces were pretty easy to do as no law really restricted them, but they were not welcomed and was badly received by a majority of the society. So social pressure was more the issue than laws in terms of marriage and divorce (and why divorces not happened that often, but it happened like Pompeius divorced from a daughter of Caesar or the Diadochi from their persian spouses - with the exception of Seleucus and his wife Apame). This is irrelevant for the game, but just as historical background information. :D Same sex marriage wasn't a thing, same sex relationships of course. Not sure about that either, but I think they were somewhat accepted - not completely, but it wasn't like a sin in christianity to have same sex relationships.
 
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From listening to a pod cast about roman history. So many emperor were gay but they didnt have that concept then. They kind of did everyone. Man, woman, and child, alike. Or at least the roman pod cast gives that impression. Some worse than others. Or they make a horse a consul.
 
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Samitte

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Small trigger warning for the second half, regarding sexual violence and homophobia as well.

I'm not sure about this, but marriage wasn't even that much institutionalized in the antiquity (ancient Rome) - it was more a personal commitment between two people (and their families, as especially in the nobility strategic marriages were important and Rome was a patriarchy, where the father of a family - head of the family ;) - decided the faith on most topics for the family members).

I believe the first example of a Roman law that suggests marriage was solely between man and woman (in this case, putting a death penalty on men who married men :() dates to 4th century CE. So yes, far outside of the game's scope. But on a cultural level there was certainly an understanding that the only valid marriage was between man and woman, from what I understand.* The procreative aspect of marriage and thus the propagation ofa bloodline/family, was super important. And from a religious perspective, the basic husband and wife pair and their role as progenitors of a family (of gods) is quite well established across the map. (Even if that "wife" is actually just your hand. I know what you were up to, Amun, you pervert!) What Christianity mainly added was that divorce became much more difficult and frowned upon, but marriage as something between man and woman for the propogation of family was already firmly established long before Jesus was even born.

Same sex marriage wasn't a thing, same sex relationships of course. Not sure about that, but I think they were somewhat accepted - not completely, but it wasn't like a sin in christianity to have same sex relationships.

What was accepted and what was not seems to have varied quite a bit between cultures (and probably even within cultures) on the sexual front. Romans seem to have had complex web of different terms with different stigmas and levels of acceptance associated with them. And cultural practices like pederasty, or more general things like prostitution also had multiple layers to them. But homosexuality as we understand it today - being gay, seems to have been very much *not done* for either Greeks or Romans. So a wealthy Roman or Greek man could have a wife, three kids, and still rape his male and female slaves and this would be seen as perfectly normal, as long as he remained dominant in all of these relationships. Yet merely the idea of him having been the submissive partner was a big stain on one's character. Caesar possibly having been submissive in his sexual relations with a Bithynian king (forgot which one, probably Nicomedes IV) seems to have haunted him quite a bit - not just among the elites.

*Roman Homosexuality, by Craig A. Williams, is an amazing work on the subject which goes into a lot of detail. Though I do quite disagree with him on the matter of male-male marriages actually having been a thing (and this certainly does not have academic consensus either), based on such marriages being used in some sources to denigrate and ridicule certain people. Either way, such examples always being negative does give us an idea of what Romans thought of even the idea of two men marrying.

And please, do yourself a favour and only search for that book with the authors named attached.
 
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Decius

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@Samitte Interesting information! I knew that there was no same sex marriage, but I had no knowledge about the reasons behind it in the antiquity, but from the basic standpoints they aren't that much different than from the Middle Ages. I guess this is to some extent a heritage from the antiquity.
Exactly christianity made divorces more difficult, so men and women have to suffer, if they don't like eachother. Who came up with this strange idea? :D
Thanks for the book recommendation and the additional hint. I think, I know why it is necessary to add the name :D
 

Samitte

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Who came up with this strange idea? :D
Thanks for the book recommendation and the additional hint. I think, I know why it is necessary to add the name :D


If I'd have to hazard a guess, I'd look towards Sectarian Judaism in the Second Temple period. The institute of divorce is probably as old as marriage, and is evidenced for at least two millennia before Christianity. Probably even more, I'm sure if you were to dig around a little, examples from Sumer would probably turn up. This includes Judaism, and we have examples of divorce clauses from Jewish texts from before and after this time.

To me it looks like someone decided to take the sacred texts a bit too literal, and decide to do away with millennia of marriage and legal tradition.

Didn’t one of the quickly assassinated emperors marry a guy. Elagabalus is said to have prostituted himself to men at the least.

There are many things said about him, and the problem with believing them is they come from profoundly hostile and at other times obviously ficticious sources. Ontop of the Elagabalus was (from the POV of Cassios Dio and Herodian) essentially a foreigner. And with how supremacist Romans tended to be of their own culture, this adds another layer of highly negative bias over how they wrote about him. To some Romans the Greeks were already slighly effeminate (which they saw as a very eastern trait) because of the corrupting eastern influences. And then he also elevates his eastern god (with all the negative stereotypes associated with it) above Iupiter!

Now, of course there it is likely some of it has a kernel of truth. Maybe he was actually effeminate, or had taken a submissive role with men. We don't know, but with how male-male marriages were used by Romans in texts - I'd not take Elagabalus as evidence for it having happened, since it perfectly fits the mold of a political smear campaign. (And even if we found definite proof, it'd prove the exception - not the rule).

If anything, Elagabalus serves as a great example of complete and utter character assassination - par exellance. And perhaps also as a example of why we aught to be rethinking modern ideas of emulating the Romans - but thats a different discussion.
 
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If I'd have to hazard a guess, I'd look towards Sectarian Judaism in the Second Temple period. The institute of divorce is probably as old as marriage, and is evidenced for at least two millennia before Christianity. Probably even more, I'm sure if you were to dig around a little, examples from Sumer would probably turn up. This includes Judaism, and we have examples of divorce clauses from Jewish texts from before and after this time.

To me it looks like someone decided to take the sacred texts a bit too literal, and decide to do away with millennia of marriage and legal tradition.
Until Octavian / Gaius Caesar Augustus, The roman's really didn't see anything wrong with divorce? Or cheating on your wife with multiple lovers. And it was looked down upon, if you loved you wife. Maybe even enough to have your wife's father killed and wife exiled. (alexander severus)
 

Samitte

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Until Octavian / Gaius Caesar Augustus, The roman's really didn't see anything wrong with divorce? Or cheating on your wife with multiple lovers. And it was looked down upon, if you loved you wife. Maybe even enough to have your wife's father killed and wife exiled. (alexander severus)

I believe most marraiges were quite easily done for - especially if there were obvious grounds. Infertility was a big one, adultery with another person of similar status was another. Outside of that I don't doubt that if the marriage just didn't work on a personal level, or one half wanted to marry someone else or leave - reasons could be found somewhere. Though Roman marriage to me always seems to come across as a very pragmatic thing when it comes to the elites. I don't know if it was looked down upon to leave a loving marriage. But it certainly would have been easily possible in most cases.

On the other hand, who your lovers were would have made a big difference. If you slept with prostitutes/courtesans and sexually abused your slaves (sadly, a common occurance in Greco-Roman elite society) - your wife could divorce you if she didn't like this. But it was not really cheating, as long as you did so with people of lower status. This is different for women though, who certainly would be in big trouble if they were discovered having had sexual relations with another man regardless of status.
 
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Very often in games embodied unfulfilled fantasies in life. It's funny to have a gay character. But if we talk seriously about same-sex marriage, this topic is more and more on the radar. I decided to learn more about it and find more interesting information. I also decided for myself to analyze what kind of child grew up in a same-sex family and in a heteronormative family. There are many studies that have shown that children raised in same-sex families grow and develop normally, without any differences, than children raised in heteronormative families.
 

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Very often in games embodied unfulfilled fantasies in life. It's funny to have a gay character. But if we talk seriously about same-sex marriage, this topic is more and more on the radar. I decided to learn more about it and find more interesting information. I also decided for myself to analyze what kind of child grew up in a same-sex family and in a heteronormative family. There are many studies that have shown that children raised in same-sex families grow and develop normally, without any differences, than children raised in heteronormative families.
That's cool. But... relevance?
 
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Napoleon1971

First Lieutenant
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Jan 21, 2014
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Didn’t one of the quickly assassinated emperors marry a guy. Elagabalus is said to have prostituted himself to men at the least.
Elgabulus may have ventured into trans-sexuality as well. I can't remember the source. But, I translated something about a decade ago where he was said to have brought the "finest Persian surgeons" to make him "as a woman". Translate as you like....that could be what it sounds like.

Admittedly he died in large part because of his non-conformity. I mean, he had a holy meteorite on top of all this as well.
 
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