Gavelkind Empire, but Primogeniture kingdoms

[Pinstar]

So in my current Dax game, I finally took over France and was able to create the Empire of France.

I noticed that the empire title came pre-equiped with Gavelkind succession...but since its only one title, it should behave like Primogeniture, right?

With all my other kingdom titles still elective or Primogeniture, they should go to my primary heir too, even if I have more than one boy, right?

At the moment, I can't see what will happen because I'm lucky enough to only have one son.

So will this work out? Staying in gavelkind for the empire title but keeping the kingdoms in Primo to prevent them from getting split out? Or do I risk having all my personal counties split up because my empire is Gavelkind?

 

[unmerged(424234)]

I think your kingdoms, duchies and counties will be split between your children.

Edit: also having only one son is not lucky. Unless you're aiming for a gameover.

 

[Shadowkire]

You should keep the empire title and the kingdom titles, but I am not sure about your ducal and county titles.

The only way to know for sure is if the game warns you that your titles will be split on succession.

 

[liamgamer55]

You should keep the empire title and the kingdom titles, but I am not sure about your ducal and county titles.

The only way to know for sure is if the game warns you that your titles will be split on succession.

Won't gavelkind split the titles according to what they're attached to.

So any duchies for kingdom a will all go with kingdom a
Any duchies you've conquered as an empire will be attached to the empire and split the standard gavelkind way. Gavelkind doesn't guarantee that all the kingdoms are going to be as strong as each other at all.

 

[Arnulfing]

Is it possible that your primary title upon creation of the Empire of Francia was elective? When you create a higher title, primogeniture and seniority carry over, but elective does not - it always reverts to gavelkind. The other option is that the Empire of Francia did indeed come with preset gavelkind.

The question really is if the empire law (gavelkind) overwrites the kingdom laws (elective and primogeniture).

If it doesn't, this means that your possessions (counties, duchies, kingdoms) which fall under primogeniture will go to your eldest child (depending on agnatic, agnatic-cognatic, cognatic). Your possessions (counties, duchies, kingdoms) which fall under elective will go to your chosen successor (in case you chose your eldest child, the same as under primogeniture). Your possessions which fall under gavelkind (the empire title) will be split among your children. Since this is only a single title, though, this will indeed be transferred to your eldest child.

If the empire law (gavelkind) does overwrite the kingdom laws (elective and primogeniture), this means that all your possessions (counties, duchies, kingdoms and the Empire title of Francia) will be split among your children (depending on agnatic, agnatic-cognatic, cognatic). This means that your counties, duchies and kingdoms will be split according to gavelkind, and the Empire title of Francia will go to the eldest child.

It's slightly more complicated than that, because while your possessions will be split according to gavelkind, the counties and duchies which are not held by you personally (i.e.: you don't hold the title yourself) but answer to a certain kingdom will go with that kingdom. This is also the case with primogeniture and elective, but seeing as your possessions aren't being split up (they are all held in personal union by the same person) this isn't an issue. If the gavelkind law (empire) overwrites the primogeniture and elective laws (kingdoms) then this means your kingdoms will be split up between your children and the duchies which are not held by you personally will go with the kingdom they're attached to.

Personally, I'm not 100% sure if the empire law overwrites the kingdom laws. It should be easy to tell, though - the game warns you if your inheritance will be split up (per gavelkind succesion). Look for this button in the top centre of the screen, and go over the portraits of your children in the family screen. If this button does not appear, and if none of your children barring your eldest child (primogeniture) and chosen successor (elective) have the title "heir of [...]", you should be safe. But, again, I'm not 100% sure - I've never been in this scenario myself.

 

[Pinstar]

I think your kingdoms, duchies and counties will be split between your children.

Edit: also having only one son is not lucky. Unless you're aiming for a gameover.

I have one son, but a bunch of daughters. If my only son bites the dust, it isn't game over... granted two of the four daughters are imbeciles...and the two who are are the first two in line... so yeah. I've got my male heir as my steward researching tech and forbidden to lead troops.

 

[liamgamer55]

The question really is if the empire law (gavelkind) overwrites the kingdom laws (elective and primogeniture).

When a higher level law overrites a lower level law they all display as the same thing. If OP has gone through the UI and the higher level one says galvinkind while the lower level ones say primogeniture that is not what's happening.

 

[Mauer]

Is it possible that your primary title upon creation of the Empire of Francia was elective? When you create a higher title, primogeniture and seniority carry over, but elective does not - it always reverts to gavelkind. The other option is that the Empire of Francia did indeed come with preset gavelkind.

I thought the empire was created with the law it was preset with, but since I use elective almost always and most titles come with gavelkind I hadn't noticed this wasn't the case, is there any particular reason elective doesn't carry over? It's a bit frustrating to create a bigger title only to have to wait 10 years to change it with the risk of your ruler dying in the process.

And to answer the OP, in my current game I created an empire with gavelkind, and I had 2 kingdoms with elective, 2 duchies, one primogeniture, the other elective, and only a duchy did split and about 4 counties, I'm not sure what would have heppened if I had nominated someone other than my firstborn for the kingdoms, but I guess I would probably had lost them. It sucked to not be able to pass down to my genius niece who I had been grooming for the throne for years but that's life and death.

 

[Arnulfing]

When a higher level law overrites a lower level law they all display as the same thing. If OP has gone through the UI and the higher level one says galvinkind while the lower level ones say primogeniture that is not what's happening.

This is indeed what logic and experience would dictate (in others words, I agree). The reason I expressed myself with such caution and explored two hypothetical scenario's is because I don't actually have any personal experience pertaining to this specific situation (creation of an empire title and overwriting kingdom laws). I do have some experience with kingdom laws not always being as clear-cut as first meets the eye (i.e. elective reverting to gavelkind). My reply was merely a logical extrapolation from experience on other but similar fronts, and I didn't want to present them as "facts".

I thought the empire was created with the law it was preset with, but since I use elective almost always and most titles come with gavelkind I hadn't noticed this wasn't the case, is there any particular reason elective doesn't carry over? It's a bit frustrating to create a bigger title only to have to wait 10 years to change it with the risk of your ruler dying in the process.

There doesn't appear to be a particular reason - or if there is, it hasn't been elaborated upon. There are a few threads about this sprinkled throughout the forum (some dating back to the months after the game was first released), and it remains unclear if this is a bug or WAD. It is annoying, though, because there is no tooltip or hint for this anywhere. You basically find this out upon creation of a new kingdom title when your duchies are elective, which can indeed be rather frustrating if your 'new' king is already 65 or 70 years old.

From personal experience, upon creation of new kingdom titles (i.e. not having been held by anyone prior to the start date of 1066 and as such not having been created before), both primogeniture and seniority carry over while elective does not (reverts to gavelkind). I've tried this with a couple different kingdom titles and the outcome was the same. I do not know from experience if this is also the case with titles that have been held by anyone prior to the start date of 1066, but are not held by anyone at the start of the game and need to be created again (such as the Empire of Francia), but I assume it is. This, however, is speculation from my part - it is not impossible that these titles do indeed come with a preset law.

 

[unmerged(462833)]

(...)

If this is working as before (and hope this didn't change), Gavelkind Empire shouldn't affect Your primogeniture Kingdoms and they shouldn't split. Same as those Elective one. They got their own inheritance rules and they aren't the same as Empire ones. Remember that Kingdoms got their own de jure territory. But Gavelkind rules would affect every Duchy which is outside de jure existing kingdoms - and titular titles (Kingdoms like Cyprus or those who lost their all de jure due to incorporation)...

 

[Fishy101]

Why is Cyprus titular? It has 2 counties.

 

[Sopot]

Why is Cyprus titular? It has 2 counties.

Because it is traditionally part of the kingdom of greece.

 

[Lorehead]

Solution one is to change the succession law. Solution two is to hand out your king titles to your chosen heir before you die. (You have read or seen King Lear, right?) Solution three is to destroy the king titles.

 

[Pinstar]

My one ruler died and his single son got everything, but at that point he (the single son, new ruler) had like 4 sons and my counties, duchies and a few kingdoms were set to be split out, even overriding the kingdom law of who should get it. I was able to switch my empire to primo. (I had to murder a count who JUST started a war against their duke right as I as about to hit the button) before that ruler died.

 

[Lorehead]

I must pause a lot more than most people while I make plans. I hear that kind of story a lot, but I always miss out on them.