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civlibprof

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The MP brigade question is important and I think simply that it should add to the division's organization and suppression values, or if it is included a military discipline statistic, I am thinking here of the blocking brigades of the USSR. The Garrison issue i think is easily solved with the new equipment mechanic, units with older out of date equipment will be used to Garrison while the newer up to date units will be used to spearhead your advance. Now the question comes to minors I think Militia can serve a more important roll again given the new equipment mechanic. Militia with up to date equipment should be similar to the Garrison unit in HOI 3, and should be sufficient for anti-partisan duty (but only should be allowed in its home country, as Germany I can build a Polish Militia unit of polish nationals sympathetic to the German cause, the availability of this should be modeled through diplomacy, by modeling it through diplomacy it gives emphasis to spend effort to convert some sympathizers prior to invasion, Depending on the nations political condition when I conquer should influence the numbner of native militia I can create). I think the Garrison unit would and should be eliminated in the new game.
 

dermeister

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However while abandoning garrisons as an unit, it will be nice to have 2 types of foot infantry devided by quality of manpower,

You argument to get rid of the "garrison" unit is great, that is until you end it by asking for a new infantry unit and smash your own reasoning for getting rid of the garrison unit.

Here is a better proposal: Each division has a "Garrison" province assigned (sort of how fleets have bases). After you change it, you need 6 months to change it again (to avoid gamey-ness). If the unit is in it's garrison province, it gets a Logistics Wizard type bonus (-25% supply).

Not only is this better, it is actually historical.

As to the question of troop echelons, I agree that this needs to be represented. HOI2 has a priority toggle, which sort of handles the idea, but it isn't perfect. The new equipment system opens up more possibilities. And the echelon concept is perfectly historical.

I would propose a simple ranking system 1-3. Soviets have like A-D or even more perhaps, but forget that. A 1-3 system is perfect.

The way it would work would be like trays. Current equipment goes to rank 1 by priority, and spills over to lower ranks. Recent equipment (current-1) equipment goes to rank 1 if needed, then rank 2 by priority, and then spills over to rank 3. Obsolete equipment (current-2) goes to ranks 1 and then 2 if needed, and then rank 3.

This would be the best way of implementing an "echelon" system as it solves the issue of directing equipment, and doesn't require adding pointless unit variations.
 

unmerged(162341)

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Sep 4, 2009
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You argument to get rid of the "garrison" unit is great, that is until you end it by asking for a new infantry unit and smash your own reasoning for getting rid of the garrison unit.

Here is a better proposal: Each division has a "Garrison" province assigned (sort of how fleets have bases). After you change it, you need 6 months to change it again (to avoid gamey-ness). If the unit is in it's garrison province, it gets a Logistics Wizard type bonus (-25% supply).

Not only is this better, it is actually historical.

As to the question of troop echelons, I agree that this needs to be represented. HOI2 has a priority toggle, which sort of handles the idea, but it isn't perfect. The new equipment system opens up more possibilities. And the echelon concept is perfectly historical.

I would propose a simple ranking system 1-3. Soviets have like A-D or even more perhaps, but forget that. A 1-3 system is perfect.

The way it would work would be like trays. Current equipment goes to rank 1 by priority, and spills over to lower ranks. Recent equipment (current-1) equipment goes to rank 1 if needed, then rank 2 by priority, and then spills over to rank 3. Obsolete equipment (current-2) goes to ranks 1 and then 2 if needed, and then rank 3.

This would be the best way of implementing an "echelon" system as it solves the issue of directing equipment, and doesn't require adding pointless unit variations.



I can only acclaim your idea about garrison province, and supply -25% as this is basically the same as I said but more practical, this is true garrison duty in designated area. Developer should consider this.

I am not sure is 6 months period to long ? Maybe 3 months to change it again? But that's not so important.

About echelons, I agree with your view its logical.

I would add to it even more:

When thinking about 2 class of infantry I was influenced under old approach in many HOI mods so far. Yes this I could have thought beter.

It thought mainly on mobilization waves. First echelon will be regular mobilization of man in its prime age for soldier duty (18-45 years) and second echelon or "class" will be, usually as a last option, infantry of men 17-60 years mobilized(with 18-45 excluded since not available anymore), but now that you put your perspective on the table, maybe a manpower not divisions should be actually classified as this.

How about to implement manpower not as solid form, but a mixture of class 1(prime age privates 18-45) and class 2 (last option mobilization to young and to old). So standard best-fit division will have 100% class 1 manpower, while, lets say in last ditch survival of the country a it could have predominantly class 2 infantry (example 40% class1 manpower, 60% class 2 and sum of it makes division manpower statistics)?

There will be manpower pool of both class 1 manpower and class 2 manpower. Here I should say that for Airforce and navy only class 1 can be considered.

As for grund forces, player could choose, of course if country has enough class 1 manpower to make all ground divisions of this man. However some countries(historically Germany in later war period) there will be an option to make mixture of class 1 an 2 manpower, with result of lowering fighting statistics of division to maintain divisions in combat status, or player could choose, and here we came back to garrison, to assign majority of available class 1 manpower for Frontline divisions and class 2 to garrison and occupying divisions

Thank you very much for your debate, I edited my OP in order for people who see it first time get more definite picture.:)
 
Last edited:

franc001sher

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IMO it is better to keep the unit of garrisons as it is a kind of cheap (but regular) troop which can defend some important places. They are not weak when they are defending in the forts. They lack automobiles and heavy weapons. But they can use the heavy artilleryies fixed on the fort and this can be shown as they have extremely high efficiency when defending with fort.
 
Last edited:

unmerged(162341)

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IMO it is better to keep the unit of garrisons as it is a kind of cheap (but regular) troop which can defend some important places. They are not weak when they are defending in the forts. They lack automobiles and heavy weapons. But they can use the heavy artilleryies fixed on the fort and this can be shown as they have extremely high efficiency when defending with fort.

Garrison as a separate type of infantry is not real I think .

We all learned to live with garrison , and it is unit that had its justified role in previous HOI games.

But that does not mean we must stick to it forever.

It is the question on which level of reality unit creation will be in HOI IV?


HOI IV is ,obviously, evolving on higher level of reality, where division will be defined by manpower and equipment, which is far more realistic than before.

On a such new higher level of realism, it is my opinion, there is no place for garrison type of infantry, because in real life there is no garrison type of infantry and game now closes ( hurrah!) to that level of reality.

Garrison assignment, or garrison duty.
 
Last edited:

FOARP

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1) Garrison units and militia are just different types of lame leg-infantry. I wouldn't mind seeing both of them done away with, and instead using equipment to model the difference (i.e., militia is just badly-trained leg-inf with no artillery/AT/AA support weapons, garrison is just leg-inf with no transport).

2) MPs just weren't/aren't CO-IN specialists. This unit-type could easily be dropped.

3) No need for more unit missions - it just leads to endless micro-management where you are punished for not setting every single unit in a particular theatre to do a particular mission. All units should do CO-IN automatically.
 

unmerged(162341)

de Vauban
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1) Garrison units and militia are just different types of lame leg-infantry. I wouldn't mind seeing both of them done away with, and instead using equipment to model the difference (i.e., militia is just badly-trained leg-inf with no artillery/AT/AA support weapons, garrison is just leg-inf with no transport).

How than those same legs of soldiers have 4 km/h movement for the infantry and 1 km/h for garrison?

Eather we are not real about the legs, as the legs are the same so all leg-troops coonducting marching (part of the basic training of any soldier) have same speed.

So we are dealing here with another asset of division different than basic infantry unit created by basic training of soldiers,.. equipment that gives speed ,and also organization of the division due to its duty (defending specific area or frontline combat).

So infantry is the same, and should be the same, differences are in equipment and set of orders or duties.

Its about realism, without any complications or rising management. Just one more stance in the orders menu for army formations- Garrison!

Onet type of basic infantry.
garrison RIP.

Introducing Stance:

Blitz,
Attack,
Defensive,
Prepare,
Garrison.
 
Last edited:

FOARP

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How than those same legs of soldiers have 4 km/h movement for the infantry and 1 km/h for garrison?

Maybe that's a question that people who advocate including garrisons of the kind seen in HOI3 could explain? Historically, the coastal units fielded by the Germans and the Italians were exactly like ordinary leg-infantry in almost every respect, they were just armed with sub-standard equipment.

Consider the German 716th Static Infantry Division - despite its name, the real reason this unit was defined as "static" was because of the low quality of its personnel and equipment, rather than totally lacking transport per se. After being badly beaten up on D-Day they were re-deployed to the South of France (thus escaping the Falaise encirclement), and then retreated to the German border (thus escaping encirclement in France) - you can see for yourself that they at least had some mobility.

Introducing Stance:

Blitz,
Attack,
Defensive,
Prepare,
Garrison.

Stances are just another name for missions - they have to be set by the player, are not visible at a high level. Why not just have garrisoning happen automatically as it is exactly what the units would logically do anyway?
 

mursolini

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1) Garrison units and militia are just different types of lame leg-infantry. I wouldn't mind seeing both of them done away with, and instead using equipment to model the difference (i.e., militia is just badly-trained leg-inf with no artillery/AT/AA support weapons, garrison is just leg-inf with no transport).
But you need to see what kind of division this is at glance. You will have to deal with hundreds of divisions, going into detailed viev to find which one of you divisions has trucks or heavy artilery is needless, if there can be separate types of infantry, that are visible at glance for what it is.
 

FOARP

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But you need to see what kind of division this is at glance. You will have to deal with hundreds of divisions, going into detailed viev to find which one of you divisions has trucks or heavy artilery is needless, if there can be separate types of infantry, that are visible at glance for what it is.

You already have to do this in HOI3 - you cannot see which of your infantry divisions have which OOB.
 

mursolini

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You already have to do this in HOI3 - you cannot see which of your infantry divisions have which OOB.
?? you can see brigades of division at glance, and you can see the main brigade of division at glance. If anything that needs to become clearer, not become more unclear by having to check if the division has trucks in the equipment list.
 

FOARP

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?? you can see brigades of division at glance.

Not from the map-view you can't, you have to click on them individually to see it. You already can have some very slow divisions and some relatively quick divisions that look exactly the same.
 

FOARP

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So, you agree that the distinction shold more clear, not less clear, do you?

Nah, I don't think it matters that much. It's clear enough to me that the divisions I put in ports along the Atlantic/North Sea coast are not going to be my best, I'm not going to forget that they aren't as quick as my other divisions.
 

vertinox

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Uh, could we just write off some percentage of IC and manpower to "suppress unrest" and forget about spamming some useless non-combatant units that flood the unit roster and get in the way when you try to select some real ones on the map? Pretty please?

It's not like fighting rebellions was ever entertaining in any single PDX game. Heck, every single answer to "how do I fight rebels/partisans/etc" is universally "set a bunch of units you aren't really going to employ for any actually useful purpose to AI control and forget about them". Why not make the last step and virtualize it entirely? I'd gladly part with 50% of my IC and manpower rather than waste my time and screen space on 100500 "cavalry + MP" junk divisions.

Make it a slider in production screen or something, much like consumer goods to deal with unrest used to be. As long as the needs of police are filled, they keep the rebels down without ever bothering you. Start to underman and underfund them - that's when the actual rebels begin pestering you in the earnest. Even then, they are better off blowing up infra/IC and causing attrition to units via events than appearing as units in a cloud of magic sparks and conquering a province or three out of the blue before being unavoidably and brutally vaporized.

Yes, but make it so there is a slider per nation. As occupying Denmark will take less manpower and resources than say Yugoslavia.