Gaming world tension as the USSR

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Dalnar

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Well, you can declare war on him. In the end, it would be less WT than him annexing 3 countries and attacking 4th. That is, if he refused to join Axis. The sad part is, we really haven't seen all the tools for diplomacy. I mean, SU could perhaps persuade Romania to some sort of aliance, stage a communist coup there and such. I know, it's all theory, but i think most of MP matches will be highly ahistorical anyway. Every European country can pretty much screw the "standard" ww2 setup when player controlled.
 

kalauer

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Since only 25% WT seems to be needed to unlock guarantee for France, any additional war (besides the scripted ones) before 1939 most likely render "subtle" approaches useless.
 

potski

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Besides doing nothing themselves? No. You can not stop anyone declaring war, only declare war on them, which would also raise WT. Maybe make them capitulate and release the nations they annexed but I guess it would not matter anymore by then.
Incorrect. A German player could do something about it. They are not restricted by WT from taking diplomatic actions. They could have sent volunteers or equipment to Austria or Czechoslovakia. Or, more usefully, they could have guaranteed either Czechoslovakia ("hands off, we want Sudetenland") or Yugoslavia. Especially by that time it becomes obvious Hungary is out of control.

Not only does the guarantee by Germany reduce WT, it presents Daniel with a real dilemma in the case of Yugoslavia that he would have a two-front war.

Countries who have a guarantee are not aggressors, even if Daniel had ignored the guarantee and Germany ends up in a war. Germany hasn't fabricated a claim against Hungary and DoW'ed. Germany hasn't increased WT. And there can be no repercussions from this from the Allies. Unless... Germany defeats Hungary and annexes it. They might be OK to annex the Sudetenland (if there are cores), but not the whole country.

Germany can puppet Hungary, or even release it as a fascist country. It was a fascist country before under Daniel, but once he surrenders I believe he can't come back, even if there is no ideology change. An AI controlled fascist Hungary should be much more amenable to diplomatic action by Germany, including joining the Axis. Or if you are reluctant to take that risk, then puppet Hungary. That gives Germany control over much of Central Europe without causing problems with the Allies. It might even lead them to befriend Germany, if both are fighting Hungary, and enter into a war against the Soviet Union.
 
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kalauer

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Incorrect. A German player could do something about it. They are not restricted by WT from taking diplomatic actions. They could have sent volunteers or equipment to Austria or Czechoslovakia. Or, more usefully, they could have guaranteed either Czechoslovakia ("hands off, we want Sudetenland") or Yugoslavia. Especially by that time it becomes obvious Hungary is out of control.

They could do that, true. But it would be a gamble with WT. Because WT does depend on who is involved in a war. If they guarantee Hungary's neighbors and it still declares war, WT would rise much stronger. So Germany would have to hope to intimidate Hungary enough, which kind of is the mechanic of a guarantee, so okay. This is indeed something Germany could do in theory. But I don't know whether they can (relations to their neighbors) and whether it would hamper their later expansion. It also seems strange that the fascists nations would become peacekeepers due to this mechanic... It might not be feasible to spam those.

Not only does the guarantee by Germany reduce WT, it presents Daniel with a real dilemma in the case of Yugoslavia that he would have a two-front war.

I did not notice yet that guarantees reduce WT, but I will try to confirm that when I get the chance. But we know that graceful peaces do reduce WT, so it might reduce the war impact alittle bit.

Countries who have a guarantee are not aggressors, even if Daniel had ignored the guarantee and Germany ends up in a war. Germany hasn't fabricated a claim against Hungary and DoW'ed. Germany hasn't increased WT. And there can be no repercussions from this from the Allies. Unless... Germany defeats Hungary and annexes it. They might be OK to annex the Sudetenland (if there are cores), but not the whole country.

There still is a war much bigger than it would have been without Germany, which increases WT.

Germany can puppet Hungary, or even release it as a fascist country. It was a fascist country before under Daniel, but once he surrenders I believe he can't come back, even if there is no ideology change. An AI controlled fascist Hungary should be much more amenable to diplomatic action by Germany, including joining the Axis. Or if you are reluctant to take that risk, then puppet Hungary. That gives Germany control over much of Central Europe without causing problems with the Allies. It might even lead them to befriend Germany, if both are fighting Hungary, and enter into a war against the Soviet Union.

Puppeting does increase WT. And in that case, it was even you who raised it, so there is no reason to believe that Allies will like you for it.

However, the only way to really stop aggression in HoI4 is to go to war against the aggressor, assuming that guarantees can not be spread out as seen fit.

But, even if I assume that you might be able to keep WT somewhat lower by doing what you described as Germany, it still seems a very odd way to play the pre-war time. Well, since this is an MP-scenario, we maybe should not expect any better.
 

Frosted Vert

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World Tension being applied globally is bizarre. I understand it from a basic design point of view, but Japan attacking China should not make an Allied-Soviet war more likely.

Can someone break down why the Soviets and Allies went to war in WWW and how that could be tweaked.
Also, why were Australian divisions in Italy fighting against Hungary?
 

kalauer

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World Tension being applied globally is bizarre. I understand it from a basic design point of view, but Japan attacking China should not make an Allied-Soviet war more likely.

Can someone break down why the Soviets and Allies went to war in WWW and how that could be tweaked.

Seems like SU declared war on Poland for unknown reason @twitch timestamp 35:54 (very short visible), as @Nitan17 found out. Poland was already in Allies at this time. Why they did this is unclear. Especially since they would have gotten (probably) their piece of Poland out of MR.


Also, why were Australian divisions in Italy fighting against Hungary?

Italy was not called into the war against the allies, so they were not enemies. But Italy as well as Australie were at war with Hungary.

I think that if the factions are at war, even the non-called members should not be allowed Access or cooperation in any way. But I am pretty sure this will be fixed, Daniel himself was very surprised by this, judging by his reaction in stream.
 

R1ob7

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Seems like SU declared war on Poland for unknown reason @twitch timestamp 35:54 (very short visible), as @Nitan17 found out. Poland was already in Allies at this time. Why they did this is unclear. Especially since they would have gotten (probably) am.


You have great eyeys I completly missed that so I guess I was completly wrong with happened, now im wondering what caused the soviet enclave.
 

R1ob7

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Ok I think ii got why the SU attacked poland. The germans and su sign molotov pact which in irl garenteeed su influence in the baltics, maybe in game the a.i. is programed if the pact is sighned and the germans invade lithuania, the su ai may "believe" that the germans won't honor the pact so they invaded to secure thier claims.
 

kalauer

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You have great eyeys I completly missed that so I guess I was completly wrong with happened, now im wondering what caused the soviet enclave.

Thanks, but I'll hand that compliment over to @Nitan17 .

Ok I think ii got why the SU attacked poland. The germans and su sign molotov pact which in irl garenteeed su influence in the baltics, maybe in game the a.i. is programed if the pact is sighned and the germans invade lithuania, the su ai may "believe" that the germans won't honor the pact so they invaded to secure thier claims.

I hope not, since this Baltic Action was total AI controlled, the SU should not believe Germany will not "honor" MR. Because we see later they did. Also, getting to war with the Allies does not help SU. If they wanted to get back at Germany for presumabl not Standing by MR, they could have been much more effective by declaring war on them.

So I guess it is just a bug/ balancing issue of AI decision making, not a "willing" decision.
 

KalZakath

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Perhaps if there were two different stats?

World tension would be global (obviously). These are the bigger things - majors declaring war, pushing claims, etc. The things that people stand up and take notice around the world.

Local Tension would be more restrictive. Will people be upset over a couple minors having a squabble? Possibly, but really, is the US going to be that upset that Bhutan declares war on Tibet or something like that, or even if a couple of the Balkan Minors go at it? Is England? The Raj might care, and Sinkiang might, but chances are the rest of the world is just going to chuckle softly to each other and talk about 'the altitude addling their brains' or something like that with Bhutan and Tibet. In some cases, countries putting claims in on others, making demands, etc. might be put in here rather than world tension
 

kalauer

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Perhaps if there were two different stats?

World tension would be global (obviously). These are the bigger things - majors declaring war, pushing claims, etc. The things that people stand up and take notice around the world.

Local Tension would be more restrictive. Will people be upset over a couple minors having a squabble? Possibly, but really, is the US going to be that upset that Bhutan declares war on Tibet or something like that, or even if a couple of the Balkan Minors go at it? Is England? The Raj might care, and Sinkiang might, but chances are the rest of the world is just going to chuckle softly to each other and talk about 'the altitude addling their brains' or something like that with Bhutan and Tibet. In some cases, countries putting claims in on others, making demands, etc. might be put in here rather than world tension

Either a total new stat accompanying WT or a strong influence of aggression on relations (like EU4's "aggressive Expansion", which is a well tested and proven concept) and in turn a strong influence of relation to real diplomatic actions.
 

potski

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You now have it confirmed by the AI dev:

the democracies will pick up on who generates threat and will generally work towards containing that threat and protecting smaller countries (primarily democracies.)
my emphasis]

And that none of this is scripted, the AI reacts to the circumstances in front of it. There is no script that tells the Allies to go to war against Germany, regardless of what else is happening in the world. If the main threat to European democracies, is the Soviet Union, not Germany, then the Allies will react to that.
 

potski

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The behaviour in the WWW is explained by Daniel:
I was at war with the allies and so was Germany aka common enemy and that would grant them the access. I'm also pretty sure Poland was quite quickly invited to the allies and called in against me. Same with Soviet Union, they were at war with the allies and so was I.
 

kalauer

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You now have it confirmed by the AI dev:
And that none of this is scripted, the AI reacts to the circumstances in front of it. There is no script that tells the Allies to go to war against Germany, regardless of what else is happening in the world. If the main threat to European democracies, is the Soviet Union, not Germany, then the Allies will react to that.
I was very happy to read that in the DDand I hope your Interpretation is true (although it seems optimistic, but that is no crime). We already speculated about a somehow revised "threat"-system here and how it could alleviate the weaknesses of WT. Now we'll have to see how it works out. :)
 

Kovax

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The slightly technical but very informative DD seems to indicate that the game does keep track of individual threat or actions, otherwise it wouldn't be able to distinguish between German and Soviet threats, and merely respond to the next country to do something "hostile". There's still hope for this game.
 
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Secret Master

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And that none of this is scripted, the AI reacts to the circumstances in front of it. There is no script that tells the Allies to go to war against Germany, regardless of what else is happening in the world. If the main threat to European democracies, is the Soviet Union, not Germany, then the Allies will react to that.

This was one of the things I liked about today's DD. It is clear that the AI is being programmed to to behave in a realpolitik way. It's still an AI in a game, so it will sometimes act goofy, but they are specifically designing it to act in its own interest.

This is what I've always wanted in HOI. The idea that Europe is a balancing act is crucial to the 30s. Even if you know for a fact that Hitler is a bad guy who will plunge the continent into a war, anyone running a European nation in the 1930s has to consider a more complicated situation. If you screw up dealing with Hitler, the Soviets will gain hegemony on the continent. Or, alternatively, the western powers might betray you and let you fight Germany all alone in the hope that you destroy each other. Perhaps selling out China to the Japanese by tacitly supporting their imperialism is the price you pay keep Japan from attacking DEI and India while you focus on a long, protracted war in Benelux. Maybe you can end WWII before it begins by selling out Albania to Italy in exchange for Italy's declaration of war against Germany. Or maybe you can negotiate a trade agreement and some other concessions with Germany, your ideological enemy, to buy time for rearmament.

Nah, that last one is implausible. Would never happen in real life. ;)

My larger point is that despite how WWII and the 1930s are portrayed in some films, it is a war with a lot of backroom negotiations and potential for backstabbing and surprise deals. And everyone involved, not just Germany and the Soviets, were up to shenanigans. And I want to be able to participate in some shenanigans in the lead up to the war. Maybe I'll do an HOI4 sequel to my Kinder, Gentler Germany, where I manipulate the western democracies into a war with the Soviet Union, and sell arms to either side. Let Montgomery try to reach Stalingrad with some Panzer IVs paid for by British oil and rubber. :D
 
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Sir Garnet

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I was unaware of your AAR but have located it in the mists of time and I am reading it with interest. I also already read Kensai's recently concluded German AAR that took a pragmatic "Bismarckian" approach substituting diplomacy and prudence for bullying brinksmanship and high stakes gambling as the path to global domination.

I hope there is ample scope for war as well as both hard and soft diplomatic pressure and influence to be used without technical gameplay mechanics posing obstacles, together with the ability to build effective alliances even with presumed adversaries and engage in extensive diplomatic maneuvering throughout the game without junior partners being automatically lockstepped into line with factions they may join.

War is just an extension of diplomacy by other means, for the pen is mightier than the sword, but so is the machine gun.