Gaming world tension as the USSR

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Scutatus

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LOL What posts have you been reading? Are you sure you're in the right forum?
Everything has to be a confrontation with you eh? Everything a battle to be won - even a nice debate on a friendly forum. No wonder all those who were trying to have the discussion on a very valid subject are simply dropping out.

Win the argument just by beating everyone up seems to be your modus operandi. It wasn't right then, and it isn't right now. But if you don't understand that already yourself there is no hope for you.

I could be misreading the thread, misinterpreting your posts, but you do come over as very very...hostile. I hope I'm wrong.
 
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JerkyJerry

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Hostile? Seriously dood if anything sarcastic yeah some spots but hostile?
I did not take them as being hostile, I was not trying to be hostile.

I won the argument on the basis of facts. He has none! What am I supposed to do? Tell him he does?

You seriously need to go back and re-read ALL the posts and take note of who posted them. You were totally wrong about the whole thing to begin with. It wasn't I who made the U.S.S.R. comment was it? It was not I who said "Hungry" was it? Seriously dood comprehend what is written not what you think is between the lines.
 
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Scutatus

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Hostile? Seriously dood if anything sarcastic yeah some spots but hostile?
I did not take them as being hostile, I was not trying to be hostile.

I won the argument on the basis of facts. He has none! What am I supposed to do? Tell him he does?

You seriously need to go back and re-read ALL the posts and take note of who posted them. You were totally wrong about the whole thing to begin with. It wasn't I who made the U.S.S.R. comment was it? It was not I who said "Hungry" was it? Seriously dood comprehend what is written not what you think is between the lines.

I'm not reading between lines. I read only the words you put down. And to my eyes it does seem very... very confrontational.

You may not mean to come across as aggressive or hostile, you may think you are being quite civil, albeit in a ridiculing put down sarcastic way. But ridicule, put downs and sarcasms are a form of aggression.

From where I am sitting, although I can see that you think you are being inoffensive, what with your emoticons and such, I can also see how your manner is actually just aggravating people. But then again, maybe I'm just too old fashioned and your approach is just the way it's done now.

Nobody's perfect. I've got it wrong myself on more than one occasion. Hell, I might be now.
 
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JerkyJerry

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Sorry you feel that way your high holiness
 
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JerkyJerry

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Wait, what? Are you saying it wasn't intentional? :rolleyes:
 
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Scutatus

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Wait, what? Are you saying it wasn't intentional? :rolleyes:

I'm just saying, that there are other ways to respond. You don't need to resort to sarcasm and dismissive put downs all the time. Not everything is a challenge or a fight!

Chill! :)

But anyway, I've had my little say. You can take it on board as food for thought, or simply dismiss it. Your choice. :) It's only my own perception after all, I could be the only one and I'm in a little world of my own, for all I know.
 

JerkyJerry

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In about 30 seconds I will have forgotten all about it. Good advice none the less.
 

Had a dad

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While I could tell you how WT works, I won't, however JerkyJerry is now banned from this t
 

kalauer

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Since there was the question raised what are the facts on WT, and unfortunately, we will not be told how it works :), i will try to sum up what we know (based on my perception, of course):

World Tension is a global stat.
It is influenced by certain events (Anschluss, Rhineland...), diplomatic actions (claiming, dow...) and peace conferences.
Annexation raises it considerably.
WT decays over time, but very slowly.
At a certain threshold (earlier 50%, now most likely 25%), democracies and neutrals, depending on their individual state of foreign affairs policies (e.g. USA's isolationism), unlock certain diplomatic actions, as guaranteeing and joining factions.
It seems that the origin of the tension does not influence its effect. This is in line with "global stat", but it is unclear whether there is a mechanism that works like the old "threat"-system, which was an individual account of countries among each others. Maybe "relation" has a similar purpose now (so that France would only guarantee Poland when at good relation with them and bad with Germany).


Interpretation:
And for the OP's claim, this has the effect, that if a nation raises WT on purpose somewhere, ALL democracies and neutrals can get more active early. Guaranteeing Poland is one example, USA joining Allies another. The SU could abuse this to strengthen opposition to Germany, because as communists, they have less restrictions to diplomatic actions than democracies but share (probably) an enemy. Also, minor countries (hungry) or other majors (we saw Japan), might rise WT early.

Also, aggressive nations have incentive to expand fast and early, before democracies can guarantee. So it is first come first serve. France could start guaranteeing Poland because Japan annexed China (even if Germany tried to play it calm), which seems to have no causal justification.

Is that a problem?
Most likely not in SP, as AI should play historically and WT is probably balanced to it.
Possibly in MP, as intentional increase of WT might serve strategic considerations.
 

linkeagleandzen

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What could be interesting is that Democratic reaction is tied to faction or nation.

Like if 50% +1 WT is generated by the USSR for example, the Democracies will start guaranteeing all nations threatened by Comintern nations. Like for example USSR doesn't do anything else but they puppeted Finland and then Finland threatens Sweden, UK guaranties Sweden.

But if 50% +1 WT is generated by Hungary before it joins a faction, the Democracies guarantee only nations threatened by Hungary.

Or perhaps there could simply be a modifier to guarantee chance. Like there is a base chance that then gets multiplied by percentage of WT generated. That could be interesting.
 

Sir Garnet

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That democracies would issue guarantees without great reluctance and under the pressure of a perceived lack of other alternatives seems dubious to me.

Unconditional guarantees, like any course of action that paints one in a corner or severs one's own line of retreat, are incredibly dangerous. While they may stabilize some situations, such as the independence of the diplomatic artifact known as Belgium and the remnant of the Republic of China, they place the guarantor at the mercy of opportunism from friends, foes and neutrals. The Great War most ostentatiously displayed how badly similar commitments can turn out.

There should be more options in the diplomat's toolbox, including very conditional guarantees.
 

potski

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And for the OP's claim, this has the effect, that if a nation raises WT on purpose somewhere, ALL democracies and neutrals can get more active early. Guaranteeing Poland is one example, USA joining Allies another. The SU could abuse this to strengthen opposition to Germany, because as communists, they have less restrictions to diplomatic actions than democracies but share (probably) an enemy.
First thing. Just because IRL the Allies ended up fighting with the Soviet Union against Germany does not mean in 1936 they shared an enemy, or were friendly. A number of countries invaded the Soviet Union and tried to strangle communism at birth, that included USA, Japan, UK, France, Czechoslovakia. Other countries were dragged into the civil war (Poland, Romania), Finland and the Baltic States were formed out of it. Stalin had no reason to trust the Allies any more than Germany in 1936, and it's wrong to assume that the Cold War grew entirely out of events post-1945.

If the Soviets had gone on an invasion spree in the mid-1930s would the Allies have done nothing? It's claimed, without any evidence, that the Soviet Union could on it's own increase WT to around 90%, even though it's actions cause less increase to WT than other countries, and we know it is more interested in puppets than annexation. It should also be more interested in spreading it's ideology by political means.

Despite it's huge size, there are not loads of countries bordering the Soviets - Japan, Sinkiang, Tibet and Afghanistan in Asia. Despite how it turned out IRL in 1941, would the USA do nothing if the Soviets invaded and annexed Japan? More preposterously, why would the huge threat to their interests in the Pacific suddenly lead them to throw off the Neutrality Acts and DoW Germany because of the Anschluss?

Would the UK not feel threatened by Soviet actions in Asia? Remember IRL the Soviets kept Operation Zet a secret, because they thought that the Allies would strongly object to them interfering within China. There was a huge concern that the Chinese Civil War would lead to a communist revolution.

What about the Middle East? The Soviets border Iran and Iraq. Would the UK allow them free rein to invade and puppet these countries?

In Europe, it's possible not much would happen in the case of the Baltic States. But Finland, Romania, Poland and Turkey? Remember to get WT high enough for the US to enter the war will require several of these. Prior to the M-R Pact, Finland was regarded very much within the sphere of influence of Germany. It was Germany who sent troops there during the civil war. IIRC there was diplomatic agreements between them from before Hitler. Even to the extent that the Finland government thought Germany was their ally in 1941, because they didn't know about the secret protocols in the M-R Pact that gave Finland to the Soviet sphere of influence. Hitler claimed to Mannerheim that he didn't intervene in the Winter War because he was busy in the West, and his troops were not equipped for winter fighting. The Allies couldn't assist Finland because the Baltic Sea wasn't open, and they couldn't get an agreement for access through Sweden.

Do we really believe that in 1936-38 that the Soviet Union could invade and puppet Finland without either the Allies or Germany doing anything about it?

Technically it's true that the Allies could use this as part of a strategy to attack Germany, and in MP games that could happen. But in MP games Germany could DoW France in 1936, or instead of following the historic chain of NFs do the same sort of central Europe conquest that Daniel did in WWW, or Northern Europe and capture Sweden's steel and factories early in the game. But even in MP games, if you were playing as the Allies you would get pretty concerned that the Soviets could become unstoppable if you allow them to take over most of their neighbours. Turkey gives them access to the Med, even threatens Suez, Romania gives them even more oil and threatens the Balkans.

We are supposed to believe that the Soviet Union, despite their historic position of "socialism in one country" and Stalin's pre-occupation with dealing with internal matters, might go on an invasion spree, and that the Allies AI would respond to that by attacking Germany? Do you think they are hardcoded to fight Germany regardless of the situation in the world?

Surely, it's much more likely to lead to an informal alliance between the Allies and Axis against the Comintern? Followed by a very uneasy peace, especially if Germany and Japan use a peace conference to grab big chunks of a defeated Soviet Union.

When Daniel went on his invasion spree in central Europe did the Allies respond by attacking Germany or Hungary? And that must be the situation, whether the aggressor nation(s) are the Axis, a faction in South America, the Northern Lights, or Albania bent on World Conquest. Nothing else makes any sense, unless you are utterly paranoid that this game is about defeating Germany and nothing else.

The democracies are restricted from attacking countries that have not raised WT. That's absolutely not the same as they will always attack the countries that historically raised WT, and ignore everything else, nor even that they will always attack every country that raises WT.
 
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kalauer

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i agree with most of what you said, from a historic point of view: SU raising "WT" in any of the ways you described would have made them the prime enemy (to shorten this).Especially with appeasement regarding Hitler going on in Europe. But I am considering the following scenario strictly base on what we know how the game works:

- Player SU raises WT considerably until 1938 by annexing neighbours
- what they ware historically "interested in" does not matter in that case
- when Germany starts to attack Poland (going historically), USA might very well be able to enter the war immediately or at least much faster

Thus, SU would have had a major impact on the opposition Germany faces.

Now you are right, it may be that, by some mechanics unknown to us and unrelated to WT, that USA and Allies ignore Germany/Axis and turn to the (seemingly) bigger threat SU. But if that is the case, I really would like to hear something about it. The WT alone seems unable to do this.

When Daniel went on his invasion spree in central Europe did the Allies respond by attacking Germany or Hungary? And that must be the situation, whether the aggressor nation(s) are the Axis, a faction in South America, the Northern Lights, or Albania bent on World Conquest. Nothing else makes any sense, unless you are utterly paranoid that this game is about defeating Germany and nothing else.

No, but we saw that France was ready to guarantee very early. And it is a godd thing that they guaranteed against Hungary when it claimed the Balkans. But I assume that GB and France have some inclination to guarantee targets of Germany. But even if they do not have it: It seems that France is generally willing to defend minors from aggressors by using guarantees, as we have seen in Hungary. So an aggressive nation (every aggressive nation) will at some point have to deal with this. Germany is merely an example, but an important one. Much of the events for Germany that (in HoI3) let one choose between building threat or not would be useless (now selection of national foci), since the crucial WT would be reached anyway. Being cautions could be pointless, due to WT being a global stat, not individual.

So to abstract this: It seems to be a possible strategy to harm aggressive nations by increasing WT and therefore getting democracies and neutral into the game earlier. This also encourages early land-grabs, while discouraging later ones, as stated before.

E.g. Why not grab Denmark immediately at the start as Germany and (presumingly raise WT to around 25%)? Unless there is a scripted (historic?) guarantee, this would go unchallenged. And if one assumes that someone else raises WT soon (before 1939), there is no punishment for this in the WT-mechanic.

The democracies are restricted from attacking countries that have not raised WT. That's absolutely not the same as they will always attack the countries that historically raised WT, and ignore everything else, nor even that they will always attack every country that raises WT.

As far as we have seen, France did not actively attack anyone, but used guarantees to get into the war (WWW MP, WWW Hungary). Most likely because they need much higher WT or political focus to do so. Hence, as I stated earlier, guaranteeing is the major tool for democracies. And once France got into the war in WWW Hungary, getting Britain seems to be a matter of time, at which point WT does not matter anymore.

So when France is able to guarantee, it seems to be unimportant who raised how much WT. Even if (very unlikely) I did not raise any WT as Germany until I claim Poland, I will be dragged to war once France can guarantee (assuming, that is true, that France is likely to guarantee Poland). I don't know whether France would also guarantee in South America or Indochina, but I have to admit that I believe Europe is by far most important here.

Bottom line: I hope there is a mechanism (maybe "relation") that tracks aggressive actions nation-wise, not only globally, as it would be somewhat reduce the possibility for unplausible results, of which you described some.
 
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Kovax

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So, if I choose the right monarchy, annex my neighbors up to the brink of WT, and then usher in a new spirit of democracy and join the Allies, I've made the game easier for myself by raising WT early, and limiting the early expansion of the Axis and Commintern. Essentially, the next party to take a hostile action is subjected to the full fury of the Allies because of me, and I'm directly rewarded by the chaos that I caused.

I believe that WT is a good idea, but only as a supplemental factor, not as the main determinant of action. If one country causes most of the problems, they get targeted. If various incidents around the world occur, it should have some impact at moving the rest of the world toward rearmament, but not invoke the same level of response as if one perpetrator is clearly at fault. WT + individual Threat seems like the preferable alternative over either mechanism alone.
 
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Fenxis

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I'm almost amused by the idea of playing a third world country, starting an almost immediate war to annex a couple of useless backwater uncivs, and boosting World Tension just to have the Allies declare war on Germany in 1936 when it remilitarizes the Rhineland. ALMOST amused.

Except if you start attacking like that you are presumably a fascist nation; as such moves those would be good for you in the short run but presumably in the big scheme having a strong Germany to draw the attention of the US/UK is a good thing.
 

Secret Master

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I believe that WT is a good idea, but only as a supplemental factor, not as the main determinant of action. If one country causes most of the problems, they get targeted. If various incidents around the world occur, it should have some impact at moving the rest of the world toward rearmament, but not invoke the same level of response as if one perpetrator is clearly at fault. WT + individual Threat seems like the preferable alternative over either mechanism alone.

Or, as I call it, defensive pacts in CK2. :p

I should point out, though, that joining the "Allies" after conducting imperialism is not necessarily unrealistic.
Consider the Horae-Laval Pact. Trading bits of Ethiopia to Italy in exchange for Italian support against Germany is sounds a bit like someone conquering some territory and then joining the Allies even without a change in government or national spirit.

Of course, the Pact was scuttled for obvious reasons by public opinion problems, but it does highlight how even a government like Britain or France might be willing to dangle a carrot to an ambitious and imperialistic neighbor in exchange for support against a worse enemy.

Maybe admitting an imperialistic power that just conquered a bunch of stuff into your Allies faction should cause domestic political problems.
 

R1ob7

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Another thing is it gives the allies abilities to stomp an unalligned italy or japan before focuseing on Germany. I.e. Allies know Italy will declear war on Ethopia what will stop a player from guaranteeing Ethopia to knock out Italy before it even joins the Axis if world tension is inflated. Now this mechanic is mainly an axis v allies mechanic. The allies benefit from it from it being high why the axis want to keep it low untill they are ready for war. Russia from what we have seen has no direct relation to world tension, so it doesn't care wether its low or high, now thier natural enemy is hurt from it from being high so therefore they want it high. One solution would be for Russia to have some relation to world tension and they may because we haven't seen any Russian gameplay.
 
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Telenil

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Except if you start attacking like that you are presumably a fascist nation; as such moves those would be good for you in the short run but presumably in the big scheme having a strong Germany to draw the attention of the US/UK is a good thing.
Reforming the country to Democratic is not necessarily difficult (apparently that depends on the starting Democratic support). A real fascist government couldn't do that since it would be overthrown, but since the player can reform and keep playing, what Kovax describes sounds like the optimal play for the Allies faction:
So, if I choose the right monarchy, annex my neighbors up to the brink of WT, and then usher in a new spirit of democracy and join the Allies, I've made the game easier for myself by raising WT early, and limiting the early expansion of the Axis and Commintern. Essentially, the next party to take a hostile action is subjected to the full fury of the Allies because of me, and I'm directly rewarded by the chaos that I caused.
Not that a rework of the World Tension would be absolutely necessary, an indirect fix could be to make civil wars bloody enough that the transition to fascism and back will leave the country crippled.
 

kalauer

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Not that a rework of the World Tension would be absolutely necessary, an indirect fix could be to make civil wars bloody enough that the transition to fascism and back will leave the country crippled.

This might also be a possible exploit although I tend to believe, changing governments twice puts you streets after 1939, thus WT should be very high already, even without any abuse.