Gaming world tension as the USSR

[R1ob7]

I assume as Russia there are several things that could be done to raise world tension I.e the winter war sending troops to the spainish civil war and I have two question regarding it 1. Would it be a viable strategy as russia to raise world tenision early on to get the allies to declear war on Germany early. 2. Is it possible for a hyper agressive russia to have war decleared on it by the allies so maybe get allies and axis vs commies or even more interesting a 3 way war.

 

[LordOfWar16]

You cant raise world tension to make the allies declare war on germany early, because they go after those that increase it. If germany is just sitting there minding its own business and you raise world tension like crazy they will actually declare war on you. Democracies cant even declare war on countries that didnt raise world tension.

Worst thing that actually could happen is that both axis and allies declare war on you instead. You'd most likely scare the european minors into the axis aswell like estonia, latvia, lithuania, romania and maybe even poland.

 

[R1ob7]

No I get that but the act of Germany entering the Rhineland Germany will raise World tension so Germany will have some world tension, so I doubt there will be a game where Germany will have 0 World Tension. And from the looks of it the allies stuff like garentees unlock at specific levels so from how I look at it if you raise it quickly enough it gives the allies the ability to stop German Expansion through things like garentees. The allies may not like you but there isn't seperate axis and comintern world tension levels and from my understanding of it having high world tenision actually will be a benefit to them because it gives the allies the ability to stop the axis. From everything I've seen about the game thats the way the A.I. will go in most situations regardless of how much world tennsion there is. I haven't seen any allie national focus or choice that would put them into a war with the soveit ubion like the danzig or war event could.

 

[77Hawk77]

I assume as Russia there are several things that could be done to raise world tension I.e the winter war sending troops to the spainish civil war and I have two question regarding it 1. Would it be a viable strategy as russia to raise world tenision early on to get the allies to declear war on Germany early. 2. Is it possible for a hyper agressive russia to have war decleared on it by the allies so maybe get allies and axis vs commies or even more interesting a 3 way war.

You only need to take one country as Russia, and that's Romania, if you take it you have won. I am sure this can be done even without raising world tension against you, and you won't need to raise it either since you'll have all the oil of europe pretty much.

 

[kalauer]

I agree to OP. The concept of world tension seems to be abusable. We have seen in the Japan WWW, that annexing China raises world tension to a level where no further actions from german side are needed for the Allies to guarantee, and, if extrapolated, even enter a war directly. Just assume Japan keeps expanding, world tension will very fast go up to 80% and more.

We did not hear a lot about this issue of "who" creates the tension. If it is an integer, then no, it will not help Germany avoiding early Allie-actions, since, as @R1ob7 stated, some world tension will come from Germany even in conservative approaches. And though the general concept of world tension seems appealing, I can't find why Britain and France would take less sh.. enanegans from germany if Japan annexes China, which is what it implies and explicitly does.

This may all be issue to balancing, maybe annexing China should not be a 40% hit on world tension, and if it can be balanced, it's okay for release, I guess. But the basic issue persists. When I think about it, I always come to national tension levels, which is Threat as we know it from HoI3 or aggressive expansion from EU4. But this was obviously scuffled for a reason in HoI4. But anyway, if world tension (and that's how I perceived it) needs to reach a threshold for any democracy to guarantee anyone against anyone, so if it just enables a diplomatic option, without target restraints, you'd better hurry as Germany.

However, in singleplayer, this might not be an issue, if AI sticks to roughly historical actions. And while it seems abusable in MP, MP is never historical, so you might end with France and Germany against Italy or what else.

 

[henzington]

The numbers were probably not 100% balanced and MP is difficult to balance unless people play by specific rules.

 

[LordOfWar16]

No I get that but the act of Germany entering the Rhineland Germany will raise World tension so Germany will have some world tension, so I doubt there will be a game where Germany will have 0 World Tension. And from the looks of it the allies stuff like garentees unlock at specific levels so from how I look at it if you raise it quickly enough it gives the allies the ability to stop German Expansion through things like garentees. The allies may not like you but there isn't seperate axis and comintern world tension levels and from my understanding of it having high world tenision actually will be a benefit to them because it gives the allies the ability to stop the axis. From everything I've seen about the game thats the way the A.I. will go in most situations regardless of how much world tennsion there is. I haven't seen any allie national focus or choice that would put them into a war with the soveit ubion like the danzig or war event could.

the devs werent 100% clear on that but i doubt that the allies will be able to declare war over minor bumps in world tension. If germany increased it by maybe 2-5% maybe 10% and you as the soviet union kicked it up by 90% then you will be the target of them. Democratic nations cant actively declare war on other nations unless the world tension is basicly 100%. They can start guaranteeing at 50%, but not declare wars directly. If germany for some reason goes absolute berserker and for example annexes poland early on then sure, they could be potentially attacked.

 

[kalauer]

the devs werent 100% clear on that but i doubt that the allies will be able to declare war over minor bumps in world tension. If germany increased it by maybe 2-5% maybe 10% and you as the soviet union kicked it up by 90% then you will be the target of them. Democratic nations cant actively declare war on other nations unless the world tension is basicly 100%. They can start guaranteeing at 50%, but not declare wars directly. If germany for some reason goes absolute berserker and for example annexes poland early on then sure, they could be potentially attacked.

I think this 50% was rebalanced already, judging according to today's WWW. But I would Need to know more about how it is determined who the democratics might be after when the are allowed to. E.g. historical focus vs. actual situation in the game.

Anyhow, one possible strategy of neglecting munich so you can attack poland without France guaranteeing it could be rendered void when world tension is raised in some other place. But that is just one occasion I think of and certainly not a game-breaker.

 

[Telenil]

We did not hear a lot about this issue of "who" creates the tension. If it is an integer, then no, it will not help Germany avoiding early Allie-actions, since, as R1ob7 stated, some world tension will come from Germany even in conservative approaches. And though the general concept of world tension seems appealing, I can't find why Britain and France would take less sh.. enanegans from germany if Japan annexes China, which is what it implies and explicitly does.

Perhaps world tension could be separated in several areas? You could have a "continental tension" (or whatever) for Europe/Africa and an other tension for Asia/Oceania, unlocking actions for the countries in that specific area. So the Allies can't gang up on Germany for doing the Anschluss because Japan invaded China, and vice-versa.

 

[Kovax]

I can see a definite point in having tension in one area have some global effect, but there still needs to be some kind of localized or nation-specific count which takes priority. Picture the SU making an early attack on a country, and boosting WT from nearly 0 up to around 55%. Nations can start placing guarantees, and suddenly GER can't do Anschluss or Munich without triggering a world war, and Japan gets DoW'ed by the Allies when war erupts in China. The Soviets may have made the biggest contribution to WT, but if it doesn't trigger an immediate war at the time, the Allies probably aren't going to declare war on them 2-3 years later because of it, and if they do, than that's kind of silly anyway.

Raising WT enough to allow guarantees that will hurt another faction more than yours seems to be a big loophole in the mechanics.

 

[R1ob7]

The other issue is even if the allies target you it doesn't mean there isn't blow back to the Axis. We haven't seen USSR game play so the is all extrapolation but lets say USSR brings world tension to 90% and Germany 5% well the USSR might provoke the allies to garentee Poland or the Czechs now they might do it to counterthe USSR bu that would stiffle German expansion. Further if I recall currectly that some laws are locked at specfic world tensions for the allies so it may be to you advanage to bring world tension to a specfic level because it strengthens the allies and then you can watch the stronger allies fightbthe weakened Germans, because even if you produce 90% of world tenesion and then stop expanding it doesnt look as if the allies will proactively declear war on you if they are engaged with the axis.

 

[potski]

If germany increased it by maybe 2-5% maybe 10% and you as the soviet union kicked it up by 90% then you will be the target of them. Democratic nations cant actively declare war on other nations unless the world tension is basicly 100%. They can start guaranteeing at 50%, but not declare wars directly.

Picture the SU making an early attack on a country, and boosting WT from nearly 0 up to around 55%. Nations can start placing guarantees, and suddenly GER can't do Anschluss or Munich without triggering a world war, and Japan gets DoW'ed by the Allies when war erupts in China.

So Soviet Union produces 90% WT by mid-1937, how? Given this in DD20:

Actions of communist countries have less of an impact on World Tension when declaring wars and expanding their factions. They are also allowed to puppet countries through wars, and are not limited about when they can send expeditionary forces. It is also cheaper for communists to puppet other countries.

So alot of DoWs would be required by the Soviets.

I can't find why Britain and France would take less sh.. enanegans from germany if Japan annexes China, which is what it implies and explicitly does.

This may all be issue to balancing, maybe annexing China should not be a 40% hit on world tension, and if it can be balanced, it's okay for release, I guess.

The massive hit on WT is from annexation after the war, not the DoW. All Japan (Daniel) had to do was puppet China to avoid WT going so high. Of course, if Marco Polo hadn't been so early then the WT from the China war wouldn't make a great difference, as Chinese capitulation would normally occur when UK and France had already become active, because of Austria, Czechoslovakia, Ethiopia, Albania... The issue then is whether Japan would risk the US also joining-in soon.

So let's just say the Soviets do manage alot of DoWs to try to raise WT to 90%. That means at some stage it goes over 50%, the Allies can guarantee. They don't need 100% for a DoW. They are not fabricating a claim, if they, their puppets or their faction members are invaded, or a country they are guaranteeing. WT becomes irrelevant at that stage.

In amongst all of these Soviet fabrications and DoWs one will come where the Allies can and will guarantee the victim, Finland, Romania, China? And will go to war with the Soviets when that guarantee is broken, not Germany.

 

[Axe99]

So Soviet Union produces 90% WT by mid-1937, how? Given this in DD20:

The obvious hole in this, though, is that the Soviets would be allowed to run amok with limited consequences. That's the danger of one measure - it's either too easy for one side, or too hard for another. That said, I'm in the "wait and see how it works in practice" camp before saying it definitely needs a local as well as a global layer, but I suspect that it will eventually have one, particularly given the more sandbox nature of HoI4.

 

[sonicpwr]

It seems like world tension is more about the allies realizing that they need to intervene in foreign affairs, not being specific to a country. Whether it is Japan, Germany or Hungary the world tension allows democratic nations to justify intervention like guaranteeing, their target doesn't seem to be based off of history, just look at the Hungary WWW. When Hungary produced most of the world tension the allies started guaranteeing nations around Hungary like Yugoslavia and Romania.

Even though Germany may not have caused the majority of the tension, if the allies are already trying to contain the USSR, they will likely try to prevent German aggression as well if Germany starts annexing.

 

[kalauer]

@potski : I think yu got something wrong: the problem is not that Japan and Russia could avoid creating the tension. The problem is that their actions can have a huge influence on other aggressive nations plans, since they allow democracies to intervene earlier. The Su would very much be able to create a lot of WT before 1938 by annexing some asian minors. And in this case, it would help them against Germany, so it would be in their interest to create high WT early, possibly getting USA in Allies fast.

So the core problem is the "tragedy of the common": For aggressive nations, WT is a common good/resource which careful use would be in the interest of all to not stirr up those democracies. But each individual aggressive nation has incentive to use as much as possible of this resource and very low incentive to hold back. So unless the AI plays strictly historical, rational behavior for all and each aggressive nation would be to expand fast before democracies guarantee, which would lead to high WT very (ahistorical) fast. In SP, this will be saved by only one player (and the assumed historical AI) and in MP, one might say it doesn't matter. So the game will still work, I guess, but the core concept seems flawed to me. Given a total sandbox-scenario, it would not work.

Since guaranteeing seems to be the major tool of democracies to get into the war, this is relevant since as soon as two factions are at war, you essentially are locked in it and WW2 has started one way or another.

It seems like world tension is more about the allies realizing that they need to intervene in foreign affairs, not being specific to a country. Whether it is Japan, Germany or Hungary the world tension allows democratic nations to justify intervention like guaranteeing, their target doesn't seem to be based off of history, just look at the Hungary WWW. When Hungary produced most of the world tension the allies started guaranteeing nations around Hungary like Yugoslavia and Romania.

Even though Germany may not have caused the majority of the tension, if the allies are already trying to contain the USSR, they will likely try to prevent German aggression as well if Germany starts annexing.

They started guaranteeing when they were able to (at 40%, at least, maybe earlier) AND when hungry forged a claim! So it does not seem to be about neighboring aggressive countries but the diplomatic action of claiming. This makes senseand is much more transparent. It does help a bit with the WT-issue since claiming nations tend to be aggressive. But it does not help against early rise of WT that allows democracies to guarantee in the first place.

 

[R1ob7]

The biggest issue there is with this is the matter we just don't have enough info on the USSR at the moment. Thinking about it for a bit I think it would be cool if along with world tennsion some sort of Red Scare like mechanic existed, where as the threat of fascism in most non facist countries was mostly external the threat of communism was mostly internal that as more nations fell to communism or communist nations actes aggressively it would allow democracies more internal leeway with laws and the such I kind of envision it being related mostly to some kind of anti espionage national focus or laws in some sort of espionage dlc because that is what the USSR was known for ( its spys).

 

[Scutatus]

In the WWW Daniel talks of the rising world tension and cites, not 40% world tension, but just 25% as the magic number when the democracies will start guaranteeing nations they consider to be under threat. This, so much lower than 40%, doesn't seem to need all that much happening to reach. Guaranteeing obviously isn't the same as actually declaring war, and I presume the guaranteed countries need to be actually invaded before such a thing will happen - but the game is clearly set up for war to start sooner (1939, give or take a year) rather than later - perhaps to avoid scenarios that were experienced in previous HOI games when the war might not ever actually kick off at all!

 

[Denkt]

World tension seems to work on both a global and local level. Globally it allow democracies act more aggresivly. Locally ai democracies will target countries with high world tension.

 

[JerkyJerry]

I assume as Russia there are several things that could be done to raise world tension I.e the winter war sending troops to the spainish civil war and I have two question regarding it 1. Would it be a viable strategy as russia to raise world tenision early on to get the allies to declear war on Germany early. 2. Is it possible for a hyper agressive russia to have war decleared on it by the allies so maybe get allies and axis vs commies or even more interesting a 3 way war.

#1 No that is called a wussy strategy not a viable one!
#2 I've had many 3 way wars in HOI3. HOI4 has a sandbox mode so yeah I would have to assume that a 3 way war is totally possible.

 

[kalauer]

In the WWW Daniel talks of the rising world tension and cites, not 40% world tension, but just 25% as the magic number when the democracies will start guaranteeing nations they consider to be under threat. This, so much lower than 40%, doesn't seem to need all that much happening to reach. Guaranteeing obviously isn't the same as actually declaring war, and I presume the guaranteed countries need to be actually invaded before such a thing will happen - but the game is clearly set up for war to start sooner (1939, give or take a year) rather than later - perhaps to avoid scenarios that were experienced in previous HOI games when the war might not ever actually kick off at all!

Yes, obviously, it isn't. But as I said before, I preceive it as the main tool of democracies to start wars. France guaranteeing Poland or not is the key point in going historically or not from a german perspective. If democracies are able to guarantee early, they can effectively decide when to start WW2 by stopping the aggressive nations from attacking their neighbors or at least drag them to war. So if WT rises too early and potentially due to abuse, this is no minor issue.

World tension seems to work on both a global and local level. Globally it allow democracies act more aggresivly. Locally ai democracies will target countries with high world tension.

Whcih would be the known threat system. But i have not heard or seen a direct confirmation for this suggestion. The Dev diary states explicitly "replace threat system". But it is old by now, so there may have been important changes.