Game rules aren't always the perfect solution!

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And how are you, realistically speaking, supposed to randomly hire a servant or maid in Prague, give them a bag of gold, and expect them to assassinate someone in Paris? (A very horrible playthrough experience of mine saw my vassal nephew King of France be murdered by said lord in Prague. This is stuff I hope does not show up in CK3 - the possibility to intercept hostile networks before they can spring a plot under my nose)

You contact another, local figure of prominence and invite him or her into the plot, trusting that common interests can compel him or her to finish it.
Well that is what agents are for, you can recruit agents which will go off and help plan and plot the murder and can be caught and dealt with by the target.
 
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This is veering heavily off-topic, but what does blocking out information about characters that you already can't interact with add to the game? Personally, I enjoy looking beyond my area of influence in CK2 to find interesting developments from time to time, to see what has been going elsewhere.

It doesn't add anything, it was more a comment rather than an actual suggestion with a little bit of humour thrown in at the end as the discussion is all about having too many game rules :)

I rarely look over that end of the map if playing elsewhere, but do take a look to see what's happening every now and then. I just find it funny that in CK I know who the entire nobility of India are, when in EU I don't even know the place exists :D
 
Why? If a cabal of English noblemen want to kill the king while he's warring in France, they can hire someone to go to the army and put some poison in his wine. They don't need to do it themselves.

As far as I understand the suggestion, the idea is not a distance to target limit so that English nobles couldn't plot against the English king if he's gone to war abroad or on a crusade/pilgrimage. The limit would be to stop an English noble plotting against an Italian noble for example as it is not really feasible to carry out such a long distance plot. A random Englishman turning up at the court would definitely get noticed. Especially one giving out bags of English gold to the counts vassals and courtiers... Instead of hurting performance it may actually make it better as there would be fewer AI plots that span all of Europe.

However it's a nice idea but it's not critical to me if it stays as it is. Maybe modders can add a distance modifier or a difficulty modifier the further away the target is.
 

And how are you, realistically speaking, supposed to randomly hire a servant or maid in Prague, give them a bag of gold, and expect them to assassinate someone in Paris? (A very horrible playthrough experience of mine saw my vassal nephew King of France be murdered by said lord in Prague. This is stuff I hope does not show up in CK3 - the possibility to intercept hostile networks before they can spring a plot under my nose)

You contact another, local figure of prominence and invite him or her into the plot, trusting that common interests can compel him or her to finish it.
You say: "Servant Bob, I want you to rid me of this annoying ruler; here's gold to make it happen; go for it." And Bob goes to Paris, makes connections, and finds someone willing to off the king in exchange for a big fee. You don't have to be there at the time, but you do want a loyal man (or woman) on the spot to make sure things go through.

Yes, Bob probably does find local assistance (and he does in CK2 as well), but ultimately the one starting the plot can be anywhere. People (at the upper class level) traveled quite a bit during the Middle Ages. Yes, a serf was bound to his land, but a noble could and would travel widely. The future Henry IV of England (back when he was just an earl and a cousin to the king) took time off to go on a mini-Crusade in Lithuania with the Teutonic Knights, spent time in Milan shopping for armor, went on a pilgrimage to Jerusalem, spent plenty of time in France, etc.
 
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You say: "Servant Bob, I want you to rid me of this annoying ruler; here's gold to make it happen; go for it." And Bob goes to Paris, makes connections, and finds someone willing to off the king in exchange for a big fee. You don't have to be there at the time, but you do want a loyal man (or woman) on the spot to make sure things go through.

Yes, Bob probably does find local assistance (and he does in CK2 as well), but ultimately the one starting the plot can be anywhere. People (at the upper class level) traveled quite a bit during the Middle Ages. Yes, a serf was bound to his land, but a noble could and would travel widely. The future Henry IV of England (back when he was just an earl and a cousin to the king) took time off to go on a mini-Crusade in Lithuania with the Teutonic Knights, spent time in Milan shopping for armor, went on a pilgrimage to Jerusalem, spent plenty of time in France, etc.

So Englishman servant Bob, unlikely able to speak French, just turns up in Paris and somehow wangles his way into the court of the French king to get close enough to someone who in turn is also close enough to the king to kill him? There's a reason for the saying, 'keep your friends close but your enemies closer'. Anyone with any hint of disloyalty to the king would be kept a close eye on. So servant Bob meeting with them is going to get noticed. I think we forget that the world back then was a much smaller place. Word of an Englishman looking to meet up with those close to the king would definitely reach the ears of the palace.

You are talking about the upper classes travelling around Europe which no one is disputing. However there is a big difference between English nobility, a member of the royal family to boot, travelling around Europe surrounded by an entourage and a single lowly servant doing the same...
Now if your character was on holiday in France, crusading in Lithuania or shopping in Milan, then I would be perfectly happy with the system allowing your character to engage in plots 'local' to that area because your character is there interacting with those very characters that are there. However from sitting on your throne in England to send servant Bob to all corners of the earth to murder people you realistically would have no real knowledge of just seems a bit daft to me.

If there is no distance limit, which as I've posted before I can live with, and the plot systems are similar or the same as currently in CK2 I would much prefer they go through your spymaster. They would arrange for contacting potential supporters to start and run a plot rather than have your character run it. This in turn could lead to some interesting gameplay if your spymaster doesn't like you and could 'accidently' let the cat out of the bag. Or they gain a hook on you for agreeing to be part of such a heinous plan to send poor servant Bob to off the French king. Currently all you do in CK2 is select the character you are plotting against and then throw money at everyone around them and hope the score gets high enough. I would prefer a more in depth systems where you have to weigh up the risks of your actions, do you ask your spymaster to start digging around for hooks on the local nobles to try and get them to join your plot which risks them being discovered? Do you risk that they approach a more powerful vassal which could in turn bring the whole plot to light? Asking the strongest duke in a kingdom for their help in killing their king but they say no because they like their king too much. Albeit not enough to go tell the king that someone is trying to kill them, again it just seems silly :D
 
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Despite that I skimmed your post because TL, I think your and Rubidium's post combine to demonstrate a point - courtiers, being something between servants and nobles, are woefully underrepresented in what we can see of CK3 (hence my calling my second suggestion thread "Goldfish Bowl", we aren't seeing the actual game yet). A common servant is unlikely to know anything except local vernacular, but a courtier likely knows a couple of languages and has some personal attachment to you, reliable enough to be dispatched as a wanderer to a foreign court to spy on the local ruler ... or serve more sinister purposes. This, I hope, the wanderers system is designed with in mind.
 
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So Englishman servant Bob, unlikely able to speak French, just turns up in Paris and somehow wangles his way into the court of the French king to get close enough to someone who in turn is also close enough to the king to kill him? There's a reason for the saying, 'keep your friends close but your enemies closer'. Anyone with any hint of disloyalty to the king would be kept a close eye on. So servant Bob meeting with them is going to get noticed. I think we forget that the world back then was a much smaller place. Word of an Englishman looking to meet up with those close to the king would definitely reach the ears of the palace.
Who says servant Bob doesn't speak French? Given that French was the court language of England for most of the game and plenty of "English" nobility owned land and lived in France, it's quite likely that many did (and vice versa).

But beyond the specific Anglo-French scenario, there are plenty of merchants, mercenaries, pilgrims, etc. who are familiar with foreign lands and running around in any given kingdom. Finding someone who speaks the native language, is familiar with the place and is willing to take pay isn't hard. If servant Bob needs to find folks with local connections, he can do so before he leaves his home country. And once he does, those folks can help him make the connections he needs.

And yes, "Servant Bob" probably isn't the guy whose day job is to empty the chamber pot, but is probably a reasonably important (and long-standing) member of your household who you trust.
You are talking about the upper classes travelling around Europe which no one is disputing. However there is a big difference between English nobility, a member of the royal family to boot, travelling around Europe surrounded by an entourage and a single lowly servant doing the same...
Now if your character was on holiday in France, crusading in Lithuania or shopping in Milan, then I would be perfectly happy with the system allowing your character to engage in plots 'local' to that area because your character is there interacting with those very characters that are there. However from sitting on your throne in England to send servant Bob to all corners of the earth to murder people you realistically would have no real knowledge of just seems a bit daft to me.
Henry IV was upper class, but wasn't seen as likely to inherit at the time; he was a rich and powerful early, but not an exceptional case. Travel, trade and pilgrimage were quite common, exiles dreaming of their homelands, and foreign soldiers ended up in foreign employ all the time. Any decent-sized city like London would have had a plethora of people from all over Europe.
If there is no distance limit, which as I've posted before I can live with, and the plot systems are similar or the same as currently in CK2 I would much prefer they go through your spymaster. They would arrange for contacting potential supporters to start and run a plot rather than have your character run it. This in turn could lead to some interesting gameplay if your spymaster doesn't like you and could 'accidently' let the cat out of the bag. Or they gain a hook on you for agreeing to be part of such a heinous plan to send poor servant Bob to off the French king. Currently all you do in CK2 is select the character you are plotting against and then throw money at everyone around them and hope the score gets high enough. I would prefer a more in depth systems where you have to weigh up the risks of your actions, do you ask your spymaster to start digging around for hooks on the local nobles to try and get them to join your plot which risks them being discovered? Do you risk that they approach a more powerful vassal which could in turn bring the whole plot to light? Asking the strongest duke in a kingdom for their help in killing their king but they say no because they like their king too much. Albeit not enough to go tell the king that someone is trying to kill them, again it just seems silly :D
I would keep the CK2 distance limit if only for performance reasons, but I actually really dislike the CK2 system of assuming the councilor is personally handling everything.

Your spymaster (who, remember, is probably a powerful noble in CK) absolutely wouldn't travel to a foreign city to personally recruit agents or spy on technology, any more than the modern head of the CIA or MI6 would do so. He or she is overseeing a bunch of agents at any given time (both folks who are permanently loyal, and folks who have been bribed for a one off assignment), and working through intermediaries (like the aforementioned Servant Bob and whichever smuggler he recruits for his Parisian adventure). Medieval bureaucracies weren't as large as modern ones, but they still existed and weren't anything close to one-man shows.

Likewise, your steward isn't personally collecting taxes, your marshal isn't personally drilling new recruits, your chancellor isn't personally skulking around various foreign archives trying to find a scrap of paper that will legitimize your claim to that county, and your chaplain isn't personally going door-to-door asking heathen peasants "Do you have a minute to talk about our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?"
 
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Your spymaster (who, remember, is probably a powerful noble in CK) absolutely wouldn't travel to a foreign city to personally recruit agents or spy on technology, He or she is overseeing a bunch of agents at any given time (both folks who are permanently loyal, and folks who have been bribed for a one off assignment), and working through intermediaries (like the aforementioned Servant Bob and whichever smuggler he recruits for his Parisian adventure).

That is actually what I meant, your spymaster would be in charge of all that, doing the things you've mentioned rather than your character themselves which is the current situation for plots in CK2.
 
Who says servant Bob doesn't speak French? Given that French was the court language of England for most of the game and plenty of "English" nobility owned land and lived in France, it's quite likely that many did (and vice versa).
Historically after 1066 yes, but they wouldn't before that or if the Norman invasion didn't happen and they wouldn't also speak Italian, Lithuanian, Persian, German and Greek etc. Which is the point I was making in that sending someone off to anywhere in the world which you can do currently in CK2 doesn't make sense realistically.
But beyond the specific Anglo-French scenario, there are plenty of merchants, mercenaries, pilgrims, etc. who are familiar with foreign lands and running around in any given kingdom. Finding someone who speaks the native language, is familiar with the place and is willing to take pay isn't hard. If servant Bob needs to find folks with local connections, he can do so before he leaves his home country. And once he does, those folks can help him make the connections he needs.
All of whom are untrusted random people. Finding someone you can trust who speaks the native language, familiar with the place and is willing to be part of your plan I would argue would actually not be easy.
And yes, "Servant Bob" probably isn't the guy whose day job is to empty the chamber pot, but is probably a reasonably important (and long-standing) member of your household who you trust.
So a trusted courtier then. Again my whole argument is that it would be unlikely that the court would be full of people who knew about and spoke the language of all the various parts of the world to be able to plot anywhere and everywhere. A distance modifier if no hard limit would potentially make this a little more realistic. So an English noble plotting against immediate neighbours in the British Isles and intermediate neighbours in France, Ireland etc. would be easier than trying to plot against an Indian Rajah. Whom it is likely that only a handful of people in the realm are even aware of them.
Henry IV was upper class, but wasn't seen as likely to inherit at the time; he was a rich and powerful early, but not an exceptional case. Travel, trade and pilgrimage were quite common, exiles dreaming of their homelands, and foreign soldiers ended up in foreign employ all the time. Any decent-sized city like London would have had a plethora of people from all over Europe.
Not likely to inherit but still part of the royal family all the same. Only someone with wealth or prestige can just wander around Europe being hosted. Would a Lithuanian count agree to host some random nobody count from Scotland? Hosting a member of the English royal family is more of an honour and you know the guest, or their family, has the means to repay you with coin or favour.

I agree though that exiles dreaming of home and foreign soldiers would definitely have an interest in joining a plot to right the wrong that lead to them being exiled. I guess that is what the game tries to simulate with inviting someone to your court with a claim. A better use of that system to generate plots would be welcomed. Again though I believe that would tie into distance as I would assume that there weren't many Russian exiles in Spain or Greeks in Scotland. These peoples would tend to gravitate to somewhere where they could return to their homeland fairly easily and to somewhere where you may be able to hitch your claims to your new liege's desires. Thinking the French kings supporting Scots and exiled English royalty. There will likely be many historical instances of long distance exiles but those are notable exceptions.

Apologies for length, again :D
 
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Historically after 1066 yes, but they wouldn't before that or if the Norman invasion didn't happen and they wouldn't also speak Italian, Lithuanian, Persian, German and Greek etc. Which is the point I was making in that sending someone off to anywhere in the world which you can do currently in CK2 doesn't make sense realistically.

All of whom are untrusted random people. Finding someone you can trust who speaks the native language, familiar with the place and is willing to be part of your plan I would argue would actually not be easy.
There were actually a ton of French speakers running around England long before the Norman conquest, just due to the proximity. They intermarried regularly, and the trade potential (it was probably cheaper for a merchant in London to trade with one in Normandy or Flanders than it would be to trade with someone in northern England) meant that there was plenty of commerce. The converse is also true.

As for more exotic languages, those happened less frequently, but still relatively frequently. A merchant will need to be able to interact with their partners, and a merchant in a major trading hub could have partners all sorts of places (and if they didn't they would likely know people who would). You'd be relying on these sorts of connections to evaluate people ("Bob knows that Alice is trustworthy, and Alice recommends Carol as someone loyal and familiar with Greek merchants, who in turn recommends David as someone who will be reliable, amenable and able to go to Constantinople without suspicion"). Which is pretty much what any plotter would do anywhere (it's not like you can put up a poster saying "anyone interested in helping me kill my brother, please send your CV to this address" for a domestic killing either).
So a trusted courtier then. Again my whole argument is that it would be unlikely that the court would be full of people who knew about and spoke the language of all the various parts of the world to be able to plot anywhere and everywhere. A distance modifier if no hard limit would potentially make this a little more realistic. So an English noble plotting against immediate neighbours in the British Isles and intermediate neighbours in France, Ireland etc. would be easier than trying to plot against an Indian Rajah. Whom it is likely that only a handful of people in the realm are even aware of them.
I'd be happy with the plotting range being simultaneous with the diplomatic range. It's easier and more intuitive from a user perspective.
Not likely to inherit but still part of the royal family all the same. Only someone with wealth or prestige can just wander around Europe being hosted. Would a Lithuanian count agree to host some random nobody count from Scotland? Hosting a member of the English royal family is more of an honour and you know the guest, or their family, has the means to repay you with coin or favour.
Sure, but a somewhat remote one (a cousin of the king, and not one on good terms with said king even before he was exiled) and more known for his own wealth/valor. There were plenty of perfectly reasonable reasons for someone to be traveling long distances (pilgrimages or crusades being examples where hosting even a relatively unknown would be somewhat prestigious in its own right, as long as they were sufficiently wealthy that you could be reasonably sure they wouldn't steal your silverware). And a merchant could, of course, go almost anywhere.

I agree though that exiles dreaming of home and foreign soldiers would definitely have an interest in joining a plot to right the wrong that lead to them being exiled. I guess that is what the game tries to simulate with inviting someone to your court with a claim. A better use of that system to generate plots would be welcomed. Again though I believe that would tie into distance as I would assume that there weren't many Russian exiles in Spain or Greeks in Scotland. These peoples would tend to gravitate to somewhere where they could return to their homeland fairly easily and to somewhere where you may be able to hitch your claims to your new liege's desires. Thinking the French kings supporting Scots and exiled English royalty. There will likely be many historical instances of long distance exiles but those are notable exceptions.

Apologies for length, again :D
No need to apologize for length; it would be somewhat hypocritical for me to complain, after all;).

Foreign soldiers popped up everywhere; the advantage of a foreign mercenary in your employ is that he's much less likely to have domestic connections that encourage him to play politics or have loyalty to domestic enemies (the Duke of Such-and-Such a place may have qualms if you ask him to fight his rebellious cousin, but some random foreigner won't care). The Varangians, Franks and later Catalans/Navarrese in Greece, the Normans in Sicily, literally everybody in Italy (English, French, German, Hungarian, etc. all had their own companies, stereotypes and rivalries as mercenaries in Italy, with the availability fluctuating as wars/crises in the home country drew people back). Plenty of these become permanent fixtures in a city (e.g. Milan may keep Mercenary Mike on retainer in their city if he's proven useful, rather than have to scramble to hire new soldiers whenever they need them), and will also likely sponsor many of their countrymen into their new homes (so, Mercenary Mike may offer a job in his company to promising Newbie Ned from his hometown).

Exiles are a bit more complicated (and dependent on political concerns, as a host country may decide the diplomatic hit of taking them in was too much and turn them out without warning). A lot of them eventually end up as mercenaries somewhere, and thus end up joining the general flow of folks around the continent whenever mercenaries are needed.
 
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