• Pre order now!

    Paradox Development Studio brings you the sequel to one of the most popular strategy games ever made! Crusader Kings III is soon upon us and you can pre order it today!


    Releasing September 1st 2020

vandevere

From the Great State of Denial
9 Badges
Jun 13, 2013
2.413
1.125
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
I have less of an issue with diplomatic plots (rulers have plenipotentiaries, envoys etc.), but hostile plots like murder should really have hard limits on where the character is.
Another thing I'd like is for AI-only Murder Plots to be limited to where there is a concrete benefit to offing the other guy. Around 80-90 per cent of all AI/AI murder Plots arise simply because Character A doesn't like Character B's face.

It's different if one of the characters is Player-driven. But if both sides of the Plot are AI-driven, I'd like the AI to be limited to plots where the plotter stands to gain a concrete benefit, like a piece of land, or even the other character's spouse. Especially if it's women, and one woman decides to murder her way to the throne by killing the King's current wife. That's a benefit to the murderer, if she doesn't get caught, that is...

But most of the plots I've seen in CK2 seem to revolve around landless characters scheming to kill other landless characters to no observable benefit...
 

seymouruk

Sergeant
41 Badges
Nov 8, 2003
87
18
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Divine Wind
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
I have less of an issue with diplomatic plots (rulers have plenipotentiaries, envoys etc.), but hostile plots like murder should really have hard limits on where the character is.
Yes it is a bit strange how I, a lowly count in the far north of Scotland, know about every landed character in India, their family and their courts. There could be a fog of 'knowledge' where only the most famous/prestigious characters would be known past immediate/intermediate borders. Again though that could be a game option... :p

EDIT- Spelling.
 
Last edited:

Blackwhitecavias

Major
43 Badges
Apr 11, 2017
759
223
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
Yes it is a bit strange how I, a lowly count in the far north of Scotland, know about every landed character in India, their family and their courts. There could be a fog of 'knowledge' where only the most famous/prestigious characters would be known past immediate/intermediate borders. Again though that could be a game option... :p

EDIT- Spelling.
I'd personally support a game rule for fow where you only see characters within your diplomatic range, but am of the opinion that most other systems could cause problems or performance issues.
 
Apr 8, 2020
439
357
Interesting. We who agree that info about people and murder should be more limited are all being disagreed on. I guess some players game the game too hard to tolerate realism.
 

Tuo

A third-rate duelist
29 Badges
Feb 14, 2017
81
348
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Cities: Skylines
Yes it is a bit strange how I, a lowly count in the far north of Scotland, know about every landed character in India, their family and their courts. There could be a fog of 'knowledge' where only the most famous/prestigious characters would be known past immediate/intermediate borders. Again though that could be a game option... :p

EDIT- Spelling.
I'd personally support a game rule for fow where you only see characters within your diplomatic range, but am of the opinion that most other systems could cause problems or performance issues.
This is veering heavily off-topic, but what does blocking out information about characters that you already can't interact with add to the game? Personally, I enjoy looking beyond my area of influence in CK2 to find interesting developments from time to time, to see what has been going elsewhere. Having access to that information gives no advantage whatsoever, and it's easy to, you know, not look there if you don't wish to. But, I suppose that particular thing might not be terribly problematic as a game rule - I just don't quite understand the desire for it.
Interesting. We who agree that info about people and murder should be more limited are all being disagreed on. I guess some players game the game too hard to tolerate realism.
Now now, easy with the strawmen when you're disagreed with.
 
Apr 8, 2020
439
357
Now now, easy with the strawmen when you're disagreed with.
There is a difference between a reasonable guess and a strawman, but I would guess you know better, since apparently you aren't guessing.
 

InvisibleBison

Colonel
23 Badges
Oct 14, 2012
808
392
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • BATTLETECH
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
I have less of an issue with diplomatic plots (rulers have plenipotentiaries, envoys etc.), but hostile plots like murder should really have hard limits on where the character is.
Why? If a cabal of English noblemen want to kill the king while he's warring in France, they can hire someone to go to the army and put some poison in his wine. They don't need to do it themselves.
 

Oglesby

Major
51 Badges
Jun 18, 2015
526
137
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
Interesting. We who agree that info about people and murder should be more limited are all being disagreed on. I guess some players game the game too hard to tolerate realism.
I was about to respond and knock over your strawman but figured Tuo did it for me

This is veering heavily off-topic, but what does blocking out information about characters that you already can't interact with add to the game? Personally, I enjoy looking beyond my area of influence in CK2 to find interesting developments from time to time, to see what has been going elsewhere. Having access to that information gives no advantage whatsoever, and it's easy to, you know, not look there if you don't wish to. But, I suppose that particular thing might not be terribly problematic as a game rule - I just don't quite understand the desire for it.

Now now, easy with the strawmen when you're disagreed with.
I think it would add code that improves little but adds places for bugs to hide.
 
Apr 8, 2020
439
357
Why? If a cabal of English noblemen want to kill the king while he's warring in France, they can hire someone to go to the army and put some poison in his wine. They don't need to do it themselves.
Then they need to find an agent (if you don't remember that, check the intrigue and seduction DD) in the king's entourage of war, not have poison come out of nowhere. In the spirit of playing a game, players should have better control over how they get murdered, but then ...
I was about to respond and knock over your strawman but figured Tuo did it for me
*Chuckle
I guess some people prefer making a strawman by claiming I am making one.
 

InvisibleBison

Colonel
23 Badges
Oct 14, 2012
808
392
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • BATTLETECH
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
Then they need to find an agent (if you don't remember that, check the intrigue and seduction DD) in the king's entourage of war, not have poison come out of nowhere. In the spirit of playing a game, players should have better control over how they get murdered, but then ...
And why would said agent have to be a nobleman of some sort (ie anyone actually in the game)? Wouldn't it make more sense to hire a cook or a cupbearer to poison the king than some courtier or noble?
 
Apr 8, 2020
439
357
And why would said agent have to be a nobleman of some sort (ie anyone actually in the game)? Wouldn't it make more sense to hire a cook or a cupbearer to poison the king than some courtier or noble?
Ok.

You have a point with a cook, and it would make sense to use an untraceable person. However, how are you supposed to remote control someone with Middle Age tech? Even telegrams had to be succinct and were of limited accessbility, and that was invented centuries after where Crusader Kings 2 ended.

Next we have the cupbearer. I trust you remember that Cupbearer is an honorary title you could grant to your courtiers in CK2? Being a (theoretically) event-heavy position, its return could be expected for CK3.

The reason why it should be someone of prominence is because only such people could have maintained pathways of communication, especially across great distances like trans-Channel plots.
 

InvisibleBison

Colonel
23 Badges
Oct 14, 2012
808
392
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • BATTLETECH
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
Ok.

You have a point with a cook, and it would make sense to use an untraceable person. However, how are you supposed to remote control someone with Middle Age tech? Even telegrams had to be succinct and were of limited accessbility, and that was invented centuries after where Crusader Kings 2 ended.
You don't need remote control. You send one of your trusted servants with a bag of gold and let them handle things once they get there.

Next we have the cupbearer. I trust you remember that Cupbearer is an honorary title you could grant to your courtiers in CK2? Being a (theoretically) event-heavy position, its return could be expected for CK3.
I'd forgotten that cupbearer was a ceremonial title, but my larger point stands. A noble interacts with dozens of servants every day, none of whom are within the scope of CKIII, and many if not most of whom are theoretically able to assassinate him if given the right incentive. There's no need for the instigators of the plot to travel to the victim's location.
 
Apr 8, 2020
439
357
You don't need remote control. You send one of your trusted servants with a bag of gold and let them handle things once they get there.


I'd forgotten that cupbearer was a ceremonial title, but my larger point stands. A noble interacts with dozens of servants every day, none of whom are within the scope of CKIII, and many if not most of whom are theoretically able to assassinate him if given the right incentive. There's no need for the instigators of the plot to travel to the victim's location.
How are you supposed to RPG if some data stream that doesn't even show up in the game's interfaces could assassinate you?
 
Apr 8, 2020
439
357
If you've got nothing better than a straw man, then I think I'm done with this discussion.
If you insist on believing that getting killed off by uncontrollable unseen people in your court is part of an RPG experience, I agree to end this discussion.
 

Alenarae118

Second Lieutenant
23 Badges
Jun 1, 2020
111
395
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Prison Architect
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II
If you insist on believing that getting killed off by uncontrollable unseen people in your court is part of an RPG experience, I agree to end this discussion.
You do realise the event descriptions in CK2 literally described the lords and ladies hiring people to do the killing, for instance hiring bandits, or having a maid smother a baby. The events in CK2 didn't describe the nobles doing the murdering.
 
Apr 8, 2020
439
357
The king in the trailer never saw the killer coming, cool guys don't look at explosions.
You do realise the event descriptions in CK2 literally described the lords and ladies hiring people to do the killing, for instance hiring bandits, or having a maid smother a baby. The events in CK2 didn't describe the nobles doing the murdering.

And how are you, realistically speaking, supposed to randomly hire a servant or maid in Prague, give them a bag of gold, and expect them to assassinate someone in Paris? (A very horrible playthrough experience of mine saw my vassal nephew King of France be murdered by said lord in Prague. This is stuff I hope does not show up in CK3 - the possibility to intercept hostile networks before they can spring a plot under my nose)

You contact another, local figure of prominence and invite him or her into the plot, trusting that common interests can compel him or her to finish it.
 

Tryvenyal

General
34 Badges
Jun 18, 2014
2.202
198
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
Agree with OP. Been on this subject several times before.

In my opinion, Game rules should:
- NOT enable/disable features. If such game- rule is needed for this, the feature is wrongly implemented in the first place. !!!Important!!!
- Set the degree of a feature. For example, degree of Exclave treatment
- NOT dictate how game should be played. IE not one edge of the scale should disable Achievements.
- Enable/disable railroading events, IE events that will happen without regards to the state of the world. (Norse raiders/Crusade/Nomad invasions/Other invations etc)
 
  • 1
Reactions: jumbi
Apr 8, 2020
439
357
In my opinion, Game rules should:
- Set the degree of a feature. For example, degree of Exclave treatment
- Enable/disable railroading events, IE events that will happen without regards to the state of the world. (Norse raiders/Crusade/Nomad invasions/Other invations etc)
I agree with these two.
 
  • 1
  • 1Like
Reactions: Nitan17 and Tryvenyal