Game Rule: Holy War across sea CB

[Gunthah]

I'd like to suggest a new game rule to disable holy war CB across sea zones, as they are enabled for Christians and Muslims. Seeing as this is only allowed for these two religions and not for all others it isn't a big change in gameplay but it would slow the fast and complete conquest of North Africa by European kingdoms, which in my limited experience happens in every game, save for the ones in which all of North Africa is controlled by one kingdom.

This would still allow religious conquest where it historically happened the most: Spain and the Levant, and where Europeans or North Africans have established a foothold, as is the case of Sicily.

 

[Matihood1]

If you want to make a game rule about it, how about making a game rule about the opposite as well: Holy wars can be declared across sea zones for members of all religions that allow holy wars and not just christians and muslims.

Also, the whole "christians conquering North Africa in every game" thing wasn't always a problem, even with being able to declare holy wars across sea zones - it's the tweaks in the AI that made that happen. The AI was made a bit smarter and more aggressive and they started using more opportunities for conquest. And so we got what we have now.

 

[Silversweeeper]

There would be some fairly major balance implications if you disabled holy wars across sea zones for the whole game (it would e.g. make e_britannia unassailable for a bunch of religions that don't fabricate claims, intermarry with Christians, or otherwise get a non-HW CB (I don't count the JD ones as they're DLC-locked and can be disabled)), so such a game rule would definitely be a non-achievement game rule. However, I think that delaying the start of overseas holy wars until you get Shipbuilding 4 (or perhaps Shipbuilding 2, for provinces that share a sea zone) and possibly a few more techs (Mil Org, to name one) would be a good idea.

 

[Snow Crystal]

For the issues of North Africa and Asturias-Brittany, we have added some more ocean provinces, that should guide the AI a bit better. E.g, now they have to conquer into Iberia or take the Balearic Islands, before launching into North Africa.

 

[Silversweeeper]

For the issues of North Africa and Asturias-Brittany, we have added some more ocean provinces, that should guide the AI a bit better. E.g, now they have to conquer into Iberia or take the Balearic Islands, before launching into North Africa.

Have there been any changes around the Italian Peninsula to prevent Lombardy (and Italy, later on) from declaring such wars against North Africa without holding land in d_sicily/d_sardinia, since those are some rather big offenders too?

 

[Matihood1]

For the issues of North Africa and Asturias-Brittany, we have added some more ocean provinces, that should guide the AI a bit better. E.g, now they have to conquer into Iberia or take the Balearic Islands, before launching into North Africa.

Wait, really? Not even holding Malta will allow holy wars into NA now? But what about muslims wanting to expand into southern Italy like they did historically?

 

[Silversweeeper]

Wait, really? Not even holding Malta will allow holy wars into NA now? But what about muslims wanting to expand into southern Italy like they did historically?

I'm assuming that Malta definitely is in range. The Balearic change will presumably mainly prevent France/Aquitaine from going crazy.

 

[elvain]

There would be some fairly major balance implications if you disabled holy wars across sea zones for the whole game (it would e.g. make e_britannia unassailable for a bunch of religions that don't fabricate claims, intermarry with Christians, or otherwise get a non-HW CB (I don't count the JD ones as they're DLC-locked and can be disabled)), so such a game rule would definitely be a non-achievement game rule. However, I think that delaying the start of overseas holy wars until you get Shipbuilding 4 (or perhaps Shipbuilding 2, for provinces that share a sea zone) and possibly a few more techs (Mil Org, to name one) would be a good idea.

Exactly.

The thing is. Even if sea provinces are added, I fear it won't stop the French from attacking Valencia or whoever controls south Italy from attacking Libya. If it's the Normans of Sicily or even south Italian merchant republics (Amalfi, looking at you), it would be natural and logical. However, having the HRE conquering Libya and Tunisia, which should both be in reach from Sicily despite any provinces being added, or having French Valencia and then Andalusia in most of games would really be weird

 

[Snow Crystal]

Have there been any changes around the Italian Peninsula to prevent Lombardy (and Italy, later on) from declaring such wars against North Africa without holding land in d_sicily/d_sardinia, since those are some rather big offenders too?

I have not touched upon the Oceans around Sicily or Sardinia, no, though I could probably take a look over there as well.

 

[Silversweeeper]

I have not touched upon the Oceans around Sicily or Sardinia, no, though I could probably take a look over there as well.

Please do, if there is time. The attacks on North Africa early on have been something that has been bothering me (and some other people) for a while.

As a very rough sketch, if there were new divisions according to the red lines in the picture below, you'd not be able to reach North Africa from the Italian Peninsula itself or the other way around and would need to hold any province in d_sicily other than Messina to attack North Africa and other than Trapani, Malta, and Girgenti to attack into the Italian Peninsula.

Splitting the sea zones around Sardinia according to the yellow lines would mean you need to hold land in the southern part to holy war into North Africa, and in the northern part to holy war into Italy/Aquitaine/Burgundy. However, northern Sardinia -> North Africa and southern Sardinia -> Italy/Aquitaine/Burgundy isn't as bad as non-d_sicily k_sicily <-> k_africa, so I'd rate that a bit lower priority-wise.

Also, while I didn't bring it up before, if the sea provinces south of mainland Greece were split according to the green lines, you'd need to have a foothold in Crete to holy war in either direction there, which could prevent overly aggressive EREs from jumping into North Africa in Cyrenaica before retaking Crete (if it is lost), retaking Sicily/Sardinia/the Baleares (if they head very far west; that is usually not likely due to a lack of CBs), or going through the Levant, which seems more sensible than the ERE getting the "brilliant" idea to forego the reconquest of Antioch, Jerusalem, and Alexandria and instead racing towards Gibraltar ASAP because the AI sees easy conquests there. It might also be an option to split the sea zone at Crete and the one due south of it in such a fashion that you can't attack Cyrenaica <-> Crete at all since that makes conquests further east even more attractive.

 

[Sunspawn]

To be honest, I feel that supply would need to be reworked as well, to make attacking islands as hard and costly as it should, imo, be. I imagine attacking something like the Balearics or one of the greek islands would be difficult in terms of logistics. Heck, throw in a navy rework to go along with it, perhaps making ships be retinues you build in shipyard buildings instead of magically-replenishing mana.

 

[Chlodio]

Another possible solution to Lombard Holy War for Africa could be making Spoleto and Benevento tributaries of the Lombards; this would be more accurate as well.

 

[Snow Crystal]

Another possible solution to Lombard Holy War for Africa could be making Spoleto and Benevento tributaries of the Lombards; this would be more accurate as well.

That's already a thing, with the map update to Italy.

 

[Silversweeeper]

Another possible solution to Lombard Holy War for Africa could be making Spoleto and Benevento tributaries of the Lombards; this would be more accurate as well.

That wouldn't solve the problem if/when the political situation changes and there is some power in North Africa/non-d_sicily k_sicily that gets to ignore d_sicily when holy warring in either direction, and I'd prefer to deal with the problem in a fashion that works in more general circumstances.

The tributary change will be good in general, though.

 

[Chlodio]

@Silversweeeper
You are right, btw, shouldn't there be three sea zones from Tripolitania to Sicily? The distorted CK2 map doesn't make it clear, but Malta is 300 km from Tripolitania, while only 100 km from Sicily. It seems to me that holding Malta when invading from Tripoli should be essential.

Also, Cyrenaica is 600 km from both Malta and Sicily...

 

[Silversweeeper]

@Silversweeeper
You are right, btw, shouldn't there be three sea zones from Tripolitania to Sicily? The distorted CK2 map doesn't make it clear, but Malta is 300 km from Tripolitania, while only 100 km from Sicily. It seems to me that holding Malta when invading from Tripoli should be essential.

Also, Cyrenaica is 600 km from both Malta and Sicily...

I am unsure how to best split that sea zone in such a fashion in a good way, and while making Malta strategically important is sensible it might be a tad much to require you to hold it to holy war in either direction, particularly as a co-religionist holder belonging to a religion that doesn't fabricate claims could block the AI from taking it with another realm while jumping directly into Sicily could let you bypass a stubborn OPM (or just other realm) in Malta. Of course, Tunis <-> Trapani (or any other province in range) still would be an option, so it might be doable. You might also be able to split a few different sea zones to reduce the number of options, though that might be rather convoluted and restrict options elsewhere.

Cyrenaica seems warranted to make unreachable from Malta/Sicily, particularly if it is made unreachable from Crete. I didn't consider that one as it has been a less noticeable issue than the others.

Of course, CK2 is a bit inconsistent about distance and sea zones in general, so it is hard to use distance in a vacuum when arguing for/against splitting sea zones. There are three sea zones between mainland Norway and Orkney, but only two between the Faroes and Austisland despite the former distance being shorter than the latter. There are two sea provinces between Blekinge and Slupsk, but only one between Agder and Ostfriesland.

All kinds of factors probably matter when making such decisions -- the map projection, balance concerns (e.g. as we're discussing here, the number of sea provinces in the Mediterranean has a major impact on the holy wars that can and cannot be waged), the fact that provinces automatically lead to some abstraction of the distances involved, and too small provinces making it hard to see where things are, creating issues with scoping (since PREV/FROM only stacks up to four, having a longer chain of sea provinces could be an issue), and (at some point) performance (though sea zones are presumably cheaper than ones that have rulers/titles attached to them) -- so there might be good reasons for these inconsistencies, but some of them are quite noticeable once you start checking the numbers.

 

[Gunthah]

For the issues of North Africa and Asturias-Brittany, we have added some more ocean provinces, that should guide the AI a bit better. E.g, now they have to conquer into Iberia or take the Balearic Islands, before launching into North Africa.

The HRE or France route to Africa through the Balearic Islands is the current situation already, I think. And they don't seem to fail to ever take it.

I made a mod to try a game without sea-crossing holy wars. There was plenty of religious conquest in Spain, Morocco and Anatolia, France didn't jump into the Reconquista to take away Valencia. In the case of Sicily-Africa, the two sides stayed at home. If the AI every now and then made a claim to get a foothold across the sea before launching a holy war it would be pretty much the same as the real historical situation.

I understand this is just my personal idea of what a good representation would be and nobody else's. I thought an option to limit this in the name of historicity might also interest some.