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Sharples88

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You can't really claim "Ottomans are ruining the game" just off a few games. Literally playing a Switzerland game right now, and the Ottomans never expanded outside Anatolia and eating Byzantium. Wallacia was never taken, and Ragusa ate Serbia and Bosnia; and for some reason they never even bothered with Albania. It gotten to the point that I'm watching the Ottomans now getting crushed by the Mamelukes, who are now half way through Anatolia.

This thread was made prior to Emperor coming out, as a few people have noticed the Ottomans are now struggling to conquer new territory. In my recent game as the Three Leagues. First off they couldn't expand westward because countries were now joining the HRE. It took them until 1650 to actually get in a war with the Mamluks (which the Ottomans declared war on Qq Qoyunlu). Mamluks in this game had over 170 forcelimit because they took quantity. I can't remember the last time I saw AI Mamluks take quantity.

There's no doubt that in this patch the Ottomans are even weaker thanks to different contributing factors. Nobody should be complaining at how strong the Ottomans are now. I'd like to complain at how weak they've become over their years with consistent nerfs to things like core removal and now this broken HRE system.
 
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Battlex

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This thread was made prior to Emperor coming out, as a few people have noticed the Ottomans are now struggling to conquer new territory. In my recent game as the Three Leagues. First off they couldn't expand westward because countries were now joining the HRE. It took them until 1650 to actually get in a war with the Mamluks (which the Ottomans declared war on Qq Qoyunlu). Mamluks in this game had over 170 forcelimit because they took quantity. I can't remember the last time I saw AI Mamluks take quantity.

There's no doubt that in this patch the Ottomans are even weaker thanks to different contributing factors. Nobody should be complaining at how strong the Ottomans are now. I'd like to complain at how weak they've become over their years with consistent nerfs to things like core removal and now this broken HRE system.
Core removal was perfectly justified, mission update also buffed them a bit
 
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Froonk

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Only issue with Ottomans is their ahistorically strong infantry early on at tech 5 and if anything their pips are too weak after tech 20. It has no reason to be that strong early on when it has most impact as there are no modifiers to adjust so 2 pips make all the difference or be that weak when ottos have unimpressive military ideas overall and their manpower bonus from decision went away.

Whole of unit types system needs a rework I think, some of them became terribly outdated like janissary unit type when there are now janissary type special units, or said special units getting different unit type. I would personally remove all unit types from the game add ability to unlock pip modifiers with tech that you can tweak a little bit to focus more on offensive or defensive.
 
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anduls

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Only christian countries joined. I'll argue that only catholics, protestants, reformed and hussites (now that they're implemented) should be able to join the league war.


The AI Ottoman is far from beiing invincible. You sow what you reap when you let the ottomans gobbled Poland and Russia.
yes Ottomans should not be in the 30 years war.
 
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Scorpene

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The issue is that Ottoman is way stronger that it was historically. They never were able to beat a major European power single handedly. And when they could probably have been able to, technology / internal organisation wasnt allowing projection of troops (except for Portuguese).
The main problem of Otto balance is in fact a core EUIV problem. The inability to show how hard it is to keep together and stable such a huge empire. Ottoman is a model of stability (and the Dhimmis - christians slave - are never revolting); while IRL they struggled for decade against a coalition of Albanian, Transylvanian, and Mazovian, in the game they almost can, day one, crush any country in the world.

A good solution would have been to develop crusades in Italy / Balkan, putting the Ottoman against a swarm of little christian nations, as they had to, IRL. But it seems that balkanic Christiandom is not that much interesting for Paradox team.

TL;DR : Historically speaking Ottoman were a way weaker nation, because of their cheer size, and of their cultural gaps with neighbours
 
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Vince Whirlwind

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No they literally fought in the 30yw. They sent 60.000 troops to fight for the palatinate making them the 5th biggest contributor of troops for the protestant side
No they didn't.
Less than 50 years after the Catholic religious league targetted the Ottomans, the Ottomans buddied up with Transylvania (which is what led to the *offer* of 60,000 troops) to help undermine the Catholics and then guaranteed Bohemia in order to have a crack at Poland, which war lasted less than 2 years before it was all over in 1621, 27 years before the end of the 30 years' war.
They were not part of the Protestant League, and didn't even field troops at the Battle of White Mountain which was the end of their direct involvement with the Protestant League.
 
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RobbieAB

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What was the 30 years war really about though? Was it really just about religion, or was it really about the power of the Emperor and the rights of the princes? Most accounts I have seen have tended to portray the 30 years war as being about the attempts of the Habsburgs to centralise the HRE and the rights and powers of the Emperor over the princes. Of course every other power in reach is going to be interested.

The problem in game is the whole reform process is disconnected from the religious leagues, so that the historical context is completely lost.
 
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hegel68

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Was it really just about religion, or was it really about the power of the Emperor and the rights of the princes? Most accounts I have seen have tended to portray the 30 years war as being about the attempts of the Habsburgs to centralise the HRE and the rights and powers of the Emperor over the princes.
I don't think that's completely correct. In its first phase, the 30 Years War was about religion on the one hand and the Habsburg rule over Bohemia on the other hand. In this phase, Frederick of the Palatinate was only supported by very few princes; even most of the protestant princes didn't support him (because seizing the crown of Bohemia was considered to be a completely illegal action even by the protestant princes).

Then, things got more complicated: After the Habsburg troops had occupied the Palatinate around 1622/23 and the Spanish-Dutch War had started again, France feared the new strong Habsburg position on the Rhine, Denmark feared that a Habsburg victory in the Netherlands would endanger their somewhat hegemonial position in Northwestern Germany and England feared that a Habsburg victory in the Netherlands would lead to a new Spanish attempt to invade England (plus Frederick was married to a daugther of the English king). Denmark, the Netherlands and England, however, were also motivated by religious motives, since they were all protestant and wanted to protect their protestant brethren in the HRE.
This is why the three powers formed a league against Habsburg, supported by France and together with the few protestant princes who had supported Frederick V. during his Bohemian adventure.

For Ferdinand II. of Habsburg, who was Emperor at the time, centralisation of the HRE was never a priority: Ferdinand was a catholic fanatic. All he wanted was to roll back the reformation in the HRE. So, from his perspective, the war was all about religion, until his death in 1637 (his military commander, Wallenstein, was rather bewildered by that and tried to push him into the direction of political centralisation rather than religious roll-back, but Wallenstein ultimately failed). But of course, in order to do so, Ferdinand had to strengthen the power of the Emperor in the HRE and that alarmed powers like Denmark, the Netherlands, France and England.
After the Habsburg had also beaten Denmark in the Danish-Lower Saxon War of 1625-1629, Sweden intervened, partly to protect protestantism in Northern Germany from Ferdinand's plans to roll back the refromation, partly because they feared a strong Habsburg position in Northeastern Germany. So, was this a religious or a political motivation to intervene? I would say: both at the same time.

In short: there is no clear cut distinction in the motivations of the acting persons between "political" and "religious". For some (France), the political reasoning prevailed, for others (Ferdinand II.), the religious reasoning prevailed and for most, it was a mix of both kinds of motivations (like for Denmark, Sweden, Netherlands, England). Without the political motives, the 30 Years War would have been a completely different war with different coalitions, but without the religious motives as well.

The problem about the way Paradox depicts the League Wars is that they decided to completely cut out the religious dimension in favour of the political dimension, which is completely ahistorical. Yet, it would also have been ahistorical to cut out the political dimension in favour of the religious dimension. A game probably just can't model something that complicated.
 
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RaptorCommander

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Are you going for acheviments?

If not. Turn off lucky nations. When i started those op generals they get as a result of it caused me a fair bit of rage.
 

Battlex

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I don't think that's completely correct. In its first phase, the 30 Years War was about religion on the one hand and the Habsburg rule over Bohemia on the other hand. In this phase, Frederick of the Palatinate was only supported by very few princes; even most of the protestant princes didn't support him (because seizing the crown of Bohemia was considered to be a completely illegal action even by the protestant princes).

Then, things got more complicated: After the Habsburg troops had occupied the Palatinate around 1622/23 and the Spanish-Dutch War had started again, France feared the new strong Habsburg position on the Rhine, Denmark feared that a Habsburg victory in the Netherlands would endanger their somewhat hegemonial position in Northwestern Germany and England feared that a Habsburg victory in the Netherlands would lead to a new Spanish attempt to invade England (plus Frederick was married to a daugther of the English king). Denmark, the Netherlands and England, however, were also motivated by religious motives, since they were all protestant and wanted to protect their protestant brethren in the HRE.
This is why the three powers formed a league against Habsburg, supported by France and together with the few protestant princes who had supported Frederick V. during his Bohemian adventure.

For Ferdinand II. of Habsburg, who was Emperor at the time, centralisation of the HRE was never a priority (his military commander, Wallenstein, was rather bewildered because of that and tried to push him into the direction of centralisation rather than religious roll-back, but ultimately failed): Ferdinand was a catholic fanatic. All he wanted was to roll back the reformation in the HRE. So, from his perspective, the war was all about religion, until his death in 1637. But of course, in order to do so, he had to strengthen the power of the Emperor in the HRE and that alarmed powers like Denmark, the Netherlands, France and England.
After the Habsburg had also beaten Denmark in the Danish-Lower Saxon War of 1625-1629, Sweden intervened, partly to protect protestantism in Northern Germany from Ferdinand's plans to roll back the refromation, partly because they feared a strong Habsburg position in Northeastern Germany. So, was this a religious or a political motivation to intervene? I would say: both at the same time.

In short: there is no clear cut distinction in the motivations of the acting persons between "political" and "religious". For some (France), the political reasoning prevailed, for others (Ferdinand II.), the religious reasoning prevailed and for most, it was a mix of both kinds of motivations (like for Denmark, Sweden, Netherlands, England). Without the political motives, the 30 Years War would have been a completely different war with different coalitions, but without the religious motives as well.

The problem about the way Paradox depicts the League Wars is that they decided to completely cut out the religious dimension in favour of the political dimension, which is completely ahistorical. Yet, it would also have been ahistorical to cut out the political dimension in favour of the religious dimension. A game probably just can't model something that complicated.
A very well thought out post, unsure if they could do it previously, but this patch the mamlukes joined in my league war vs, it wasn't enforce peace as I didn't get a notification so feel they joined via the great power intervention. If paradox expanded the number of great powers I feel this could be useful at getting people join later on, E. G. Sweden
 
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Battlex

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Are you going for acheviments?

If not. Turn off lucky nations. When i started those op generals they get as a result of it caused me a fair bit of rage.
Luck doesn't give them the generals? They start with good ones, often have 5 MIL monarchs, and have high army tradition early game due to constant expansion
 
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Delterius

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The issue is that Ottoman is way stronger that it was historically. They never were able to beat a major European power single handedly.
1444: a small ottoman state defeats Poland, Hungary, Lithuania, Croatia, Albania, Venice, Wallachia, Moldavia, HRE and Bulgarian rebels.

1444 - XVIth: ottomans sieges down the Balkans and become an actual and proper power.

1526 - 1568: HRE - Ottoman wars commence. Spoilers: ottomans ultimately take North Africa and Hungary from HRE Spain-Austria.

1537: ottoman victory over Spain and Venice. France helps until 1538, war lasts for 2 more years.

1538: ottoman naval victory against Spain and holy league in preveza. No french support at sea.

1541: HRE Spain-Austria loses Buda to the Ottomans

1541: HRE Spain-Austria counteroffensive fails to take Algiers from Ottoman defense. The Holy Roman Emperor himself took the field. The sultan didn't bother.

1560: naval victory against Spain, Genoa, Venice, Holy League in Djerba.

1570: conquest of venetian holdings despite the holy league under Spain.

1571: battle of lepanto. Holy League victories fail to reverse ottoman conquests on the Mediterranean.

1574: the Ottomans recapture Tunis three years after Lepanto.

1620: Ottomans win against Poland Lithuania and conquer Moldavia.

1633: stalemate between Poland and Ottomans.

1672: the Commonwealth cedes their ukrainian territories to the Ottomans.

1683: Russia, Poland Lithuania, Venice and the Habsburg Monarchy defeats the Ottomans in the great Turkish war. Constantinople was not even Deus Vulted despite the ottomans fighting in 5 different fronts.

Pruth river campaign 1711: decisive Ottoman victory over a domineering Russian Empire.

War of 1737: Ottoman victory over Russia + Habsburg empire.

1798: second time I am counting a war where the ottomans have allies. A primarily Ottoman army stops Napoleons invasion of Egypt and Syria.

The heyday of the period covered by EU4 is essentially the tale of an Ottoman - Habsburg rivalry at the center of gravity of change and geopolitics. Both sides were the domineering powers of their time, there were victories back and forth, and secondary threats everywhere, at both their backs and ready to sabotage their wars - France and Netherlands for the habsburgs, gunpowder empire Iran and the Portuguese for the ottomans. Over time new elements are introduced to the equation. The Russians, the colonial empires of the new world, the rise of industrialized economies and so on. Almost always these developments gave the Ottomans comparative disadvantages on the field. You mentioned the Crimean war. By then the ottomans were outnumbered 5:1 by Russia alone. And yet for centuries before the Ottomans continuously held their own or beat Poland, Spain and Austria. In a period marked by long protracted siege warfare the Ottomans had the logistics to support and win the vast majority of sieges they fought in. So much so that the formative nationalist tale of every Balkan nation seems to be 'mehmed the conqueror killed /ourguy/ but we totally held our own inside a fort until defeat'. No shit, right? That's what forts are for.

To me this idea that the ottomans are a secret paper tiger of the period is so utterly bizarre.
You've been at this for 5 years now. Aren't you tired?
 
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makaramus

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me playing as proud polish empire that is defender of catholic faith
russia,ottomans,france and most of europe joins protestans.
Me:Well... both sides are christians I suppose... hail democracy? :D
 
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anduls

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The issue is that Ottoman is way stronger that it was historically. They never were able to beat a major European power single handedly. And when they could probably have been able to, technology / internal organisation wasnt allowing projection of troops (except for Portuguese).
The main problem of Otto balance is in fact a core EUIV problem. The inability to show how hard it is to keep together and stable such a huge empire. Ottoman is a model of stability (and the Dhimmis - christians slave - are never revolting); while IRL they struggled for decade against a coalition of Albanian, Transylvanian, and Mazovian, in the game they almost can, day one, crush any country in the world.

A good solution would have been to develop crusades in Italy / Balkan, putting the Ottoman against a swarm of little christian nations, as they had to, IRL. But it seems that balkanic Christiandom is not that much interesting for Paradox team.

TL;DR : Historically speaking Ottoman were a way weaker nation, because of their cheer size, and of their cultural gaps with neighbours
Yes, that‘s the main issue with EU4. The developer known this, there are already tons of mechanism to avoid the problem. But Paradox does not use them properly, due to market power of map painters.
 
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RobbieAB

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I don't think that's completely correct. In its first phase, the 30 Years War was about religion on the one hand and the Habsburg rule over Bohemia on the other hand. In this phase, Frederick of the Palatinate was only supported by very few princes; even most of the protestant princes didn't support him (because seizing the crown of Bohemia was considered to be a completely illegal action even by the protestant princes).

Then, things got more complicated: After the Habsburg troops had occupied the Palatinate around 1622/23 and the Spanish-Dutch War had started again, France feared the new strong Habsburg position on the Rhine, Denmark feared that a Habsburg victory in the Netherlands would endanger their somewhat hegemonial position in Northwestern Germany and England feared that a Habsburg victory in the Netherlands would lead to a new Spanish attempt to invade England (plus Frederick was married to a daugther of the English king). Denmark, the Netherlands and England, however, were also motivated by religious motives, since they were all protestant and wanted to protect their protestant brethren in the HRE.
This is why the three powers formed a league against Habsburg, supported by France and together with the few protestant princes who had supported Frederick V. during his Bohemian adventure.

For Ferdinand II. of Habsburg, who was Emperor at the time, centralisation of the HRE was never a priority: Ferdinand was a catholic fanatic. All he wanted was to roll back the reformation in the HRE. So, from his perspective, the war was all about religion, until his death in 1637 (his military commander, Wallenstein, was rather bewildered by that and tried to push him into the direction of political centralisation rather than religious roll-back, but Wallenstein ultimately failed). But of course, in order to do so, Ferdinand had to strengthen the power of the Emperor in the HRE and that alarmed powers like Denmark, the Netherlands, France and England.
After the Habsburg had also beaten Denmark in the Danish-Lower Saxon War of 1625-1629, Sweden intervened, partly to protect protestantism in Northern Germany from Ferdinand's plans to roll back the refromation, partly because they feared a strong Habsburg position in Northeastern Germany. So, was this a religious or a political motivation to intervene? I would say: both at the same time.

In short: there is no clear cut distinction in the motivations of the acting persons between "political" and "religious". For some (France), the political reasoning prevailed, for others (Ferdinand II.), the religious reasoning prevailed and for most, it was a mix of both kinds of motivations (like for Denmark, Sweden, Netherlands, England). Without the political motives, the 30 Years War would have been a completely different war with different coalitions, but without the religious motives as well.

The problem about the way Paradox depicts the League Wars is that they decided to completely cut out the religious dimension in favour of the political dimension, which is completely ahistorical. Yet, it would also have been ahistorical to cut out the political dimension in favour of the religious dimension. A game probably just can't model something that complicated.

All very interesting, and yet, at the same time, conceding there is no legitimate reason to bar any power who would have political interests in the outcome from joining the war on the side that makes sense for them. France joined and picked sides on purely political grounds in this account, so why shouldn't any other power?

The problem in game is that the whole construct is an artificial attempt to model an historical war that the basic mechanics can't (couidn't? Would an even better implementation be possible using Imperial Incidents?) model. They chose to use exclusively religious dressing in deference to the pop-culture view that it was all about religion, and because vaguely historical dressing sound better than accurate ones here.
 

penquin11

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Am I the only one who actually thinks the Ottomans are relatively underpowered when compared to other great nations in the game at the start? If we are sticking to history through the first 120-150 years of the game it should take a concerted effort by a large portion of the major European powers to stop the Ottoman Empire. Austria shouldn't be capable of 1v1ing the Ottomans because historically they NEVER would have been able to fight off the Ottomans without the aid of Hungary, Wallachia, and the Italian powers of Genoa and Venice. I have never once seen the Ottomans successfully conquer Vienna through all my hours on 1.3+- given how close the Ottomans came at various points in the given time period I would have expected to see it at least once. I have actually even seen AI Byzantium beat the Ottomans on multiple occasions- something that should comparatively be a miracle.
 
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Emp_Palpatine

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Back in the days of EU1/2, they had something with the Ottoman Empire.
It was indeed powerful and conquered a lot during one to two centuries.

Then, very, very nasty events of decadence hit and even a human player had to somewhat tone down its ambition : penalties with research, stability and so on. With an AI Ottoman, it became more and more backward and slowly rolled back. Quite historical.
As the first games were somewhat railroaded using events, this was quite easy to achieve. With the new philosophy since EU3, you can't do that any more or there would be an outcry (I guess).


The issue with EU3/4 is the Ottoman (and the whole Middle-East, actually) does not lag that much behind in terms of economy and research as they did in EU1/2. I have no issues with the Ottoman blobbing in the first couple of century. But by the last tier, Russia, Austria or any neighbouring christian strong power should be able to roll them back. This is rarely the case.
This is even extendable to the Mameluks if they stay around and are quite powerfull.
 
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TheAzureLiger

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Meh, if you dont want people to play the game, then just keep it up.

Im really not interested in some sort of pissing contest about who knows more about the game. I have been playing EU since EU 2, so the "you need thousands of hours"-ppl, yeah, Ive got that. I put in 4000 hours betatesting HoI2 and Vicky. Its not like Im some random new guy just walking in from the street.

The entire "you should play France and select this or that" is just so completely beside the point. I wanted to play Austria. It cant be done right now. That means this game is not working as it should. It is a game. As such there needs to be balance between fun and historical. If the Ottomans are insanely OP in the early game, then there should be some mechanism to check that. My suggestion was to harness the AI to prevent the Ottomans from ruining the game. Therefore its not really interesting to hear how one player or the other managed to beat the Ottomans one way or the other.

"You sow what you reap when you let the Ottomans gobble up Poland and Russia"... yeah. I was Sweden. With an army of about 20-25k there is precious little you can do to try to "stop the Ottomans" in a war half a map away. And, this is also kind of the point. I should not be concerned about what happens in the Balkans in 1500 because if I dont the game will become pointless in 200 years. Clearly there is something wrong with the AI here.

Im not asking for a nerf of the Ottos, Im asking for an AI-change to stop them from ruining the game. There is a difference.

I played Austria and Venice and beat the Ottos both times though? You might be missing a core game mechanic.

As Venice it was really easy. Wait for Ottos to declare war on someone in the east. Send in your fleet to blockade the strait. Siege down Gallipoli using a naval barrage. Odds are Gallipoli will fall in 90-150 days and you have control of the strait blocking the Armies of the Ottos.

You can't do the same strategy as Austria, but then you have way more men. With PUs over Hungary and Bohemia I was able to beat the Ottomans handily. Use defensive terrain, forts, and mountains.