Game ruined - again- by the Ottomans

[Oxenstierna13]

So I've been playing EU4 alot lately. In my three latest games, the Ottomans just steamrolled everything at will. In my first game as France, they controlled everything from Sudan to the Baltic. In my second game as Sweden, they controlled everything from Sudan to half of Finland. In my third game as Austria, the Ottoman empire joined the protestant league (!!!) and just wiped me out.

This just ruins every game. I really dont care how big or bad they were in real life. In real life they were stopped. In EU4 this cannot be done. And it just ruins the game.

Suggestions:
1. Stop AI Ottomans from being able to get cores outside of their historical boundries. OR stop them from getting 3-star generals and multiple 30k stack armies that combine to impossible 160k -stacks that just destroys everything everywhere.
2. Make it impossible for nations with other state religion than protestant to join the protestant league. In my game as Austria, both catholic France and Sunni Ottomans joined the protestant league. I mean come on.

I am really annoyed right now, because I have wasted something like 100 hours of gameplay in the past few weeks. I like this game alot, but I cant bring myself to playing it anymore until the game breaking ottomans are patched.

 

[zweihander]

Many non-protestant country join the protestant league in history.

 

[Oxenstierna13]

Did the Ottomans?

 

[Wintermute83]

Did the Ottomans?

They were fighting the Safavids in Persia, if not... who knows!

I have played just 3 runs of the game but I always joined (or tried to) wars against them even by allying powers close to them, garantiing and stuff like that. Prefer to avoid early blobbing from their side

 

[Kryndude]

You should have no problem dealing with the Ottos as France. The AI is horrible already.

 

[Metroidkirby]

Many non-protestant country join the protestant league in history.

Only christian countries joined. I'll argue that only catholics, protestants, reformed and hussites (now that they're implemented) should be able to join the league war.

Suggestions

The AI Ottoman is far from beiing invincible. You sow what you reap when you let the ottomans gobbled Poland and Russia.

 

[Sharples88]

So I've been playing EU4 alot lately. In my three latest games, the Ottomans just steamrolled everything at will. In my first game as France, they controlled everything from Sudan to the Baltic. In my second game as Sweden, they controlled everything from Sudan to half of Finland. In my third game as Austria, the Ottoman empire joined the protestant league (!!!) and just wiped me out.

Early game Ottomans have one of the best starting unit pips in the game, combined with a god tier leader, an extremely rich trade node and all warfare means high army tradition which equals better generals. Ottomans just dominate early-mid game. You either take them out early (which the AI in this patch can occasionally do on it's own) or you wait until their unit pips start to become obsolete in comparison to western pips.

Even with that, in one of your games as France you should have no problem with facing the Ottomans at any point in history. The secret ingredient is experience. You simply don't have enough of it. Back then, I used to think that The Ottomans and France were the end all be all of my games. Now, I laugh back at myself and notice the many, MANY errors I was making. The best piece of advice I can give you is this: Learn from your mistakes.

This just ruins every game. I really dont care how big or bad they were in real life. In real life they were stopped. In EU4 this cannot be done. And it just ruins the game.

Strongly disagree with this. You shouldn't be nerfing nations because others can't beat them. Frankly Ottomans compared to the past are weak. And the AI still isn't programmed properly to upgrade their forts past level 2, especially The Ottomans. You can easily destroy The Ottomans in EU4, you just need experience.

Suggestions:

1. Stop AI Ottomans from being able to get cores outside of their historical boundries. OR stop them from getting 3-star generals and multiple 30k stack armies that combine to impossible 160k -stacks that just destroys everything everywhere.

They've already lost tons of cores from the past. They get 3 star generals because they are so good at early game warfare. That's why they are so dangerous. You have to tackle them early or wait. Or... if you're a good player, do it whether you want. You can face Ottomans at 4:1 odds and still come out of it winning.

2. Make it impossible for nations with other state religion than protestant to join the protestant league. In my game as Austria, both catholic France and Sunni Ottomans joined the protestant league. I mean come on.

This would make the League War, one of the most interesting parts of the game, a little more stale. Nations outside of Europe can't even join the league. It's already restrictive enough.

I am really annoyed right now, because I have wasted something like 100 hours of gameplay in the past few weeks. I like this game alot, but I cant bring myself to playing it anymore until the game breaking ottomans are patched.

100 hours in this game is like being on the first day of your job. It took me thousands of hours to learn from my mistakes. You just need to keep playing.

 

[lolada]

Pick France and Defensive + Quantity as first two idea groups. That should do it .

 

[Oxenstierna13]

Meh, if you dont want people to play the game, then just keep it up.

Im really not interested in some sort of pissing contest about who knows more about the game. I have been playing EU since EU 2, so the "you need thousands of hours"-ppl, yeah, Ive got that. I put in 4000 hours betatesting HoI2 and Vicky. Its not like Im some random new guy just walking in from the street.

The entire "you should play France and select this or that" is just so completely beside the point. I wanted to play Austria. It cant be done right now. That means this game is not working as it should. It is a game. As such there needs to be balance between fun and historical. If the Ottomans are insanely OP in the early game, then there should be some mechanism to check that. My suggestion was to harness the AI to prevent the Ottomans from ruining the game. Therefore its not really interesting to hear how one player or the other managed to beat the Ottomans one way or the other.

"You sow what you reap when you let the Ottomans gobble up Poland and Russia"... yeah. I was Sweden. With an army of about 20-25k there is precious little you can do to try to "stop the Ottomans" in a war half a map away. And, this is also kind of the point. I should not be concerned about what happens in the Balkans in 1500 because if I dont the game will become pointless in 200 years. Clearly there is something wrong with the AI here.

Im not asking for a nerf of the Ottos, Im asking for an AI-change to stop them from ruining the game. There is a difference.

 

[MasterPaw]

Only christian countries joined. I'll argue that only catholics, protestants, reformed and hussites (now that they're implemented) should be able to join the league war.

The 30 years war was also political. People joined if they had something to gain in it. I think it is quite possible that Ottomans would have joined against Austria if they were not busy. They tried several times to expand further into Europe.
However as mentioned by another post they were alreay busy east, but also had a 13 years war with Austria 10 years before the start of the 30 years war.
One thing is that protestant might be more afraid of the ottomans than the catholics, but not necessarily. Hungarish protestant were happier with ottomans overlord than catholics overlord. (they were overall more tolerant religion wise than catholics against catholics heretics)

 

[Borgratz]

Sounds like you have an exiting task ahead of you. How is having to fight someone challenging ruining your game?

The Ottomans being scary really should not be changed. It's approriate for the timeframe and it gives players something to do other than steamrolling little derps.

I wouldnt mind if they made some other tags a bit more scary though, so that it's not always Ming or the Ottomans that are the problem. Making russia a bit less derpy would help. Or teaching GB to not just hang out on their island.


Also, it is perfectly doable to defeat the ottomans as ragusa or byzantium. So if you can't defeat them as Austria that means you need some advice on how to get better at the game. The game does not need to be ruined so that you can play it. If you want to have the steamroll experience set the game to easy or, if that is not enough, cheat yourself some armies and adminpoints. It's single player. You don't need to play the game with the intended challenges intact. Cheating to have fun is totally okay.

 

[Aweraw]

As others have suggested - consider the possibility that the game is not broken, and you just lack training. The AI is relatively inept at fighting wars, and also you should learn to outpace it economical.

Lolada suggestion of picking military ideas is good for giving you a fighting upper hand. You likely need to improve you economical game, if you cant match ottoman numbers as say France. Look at guides for doing trade in a good way, and you should be swimming in cash by 1550. Remans videos are one good suggestion for guides. But just in general conquer trade centers in one of the good nodes like genoa or english channel, and conquer trade centers upsteam will make you rich.

If you want some hiatus from ottoman implications try playing in India. Its still rich, with good trade options. Its a fairly interesting region, and many countries have unique missions. Only caveat is you likely have to develop a province to spawn reneassance and another to spawn colonianism.

And experienced player can pick any country and easily defeat the Ottomans alone by 1550 (league war time). Which is not meant harshly, but just something to aim for.

 

[Aweraw]

Meh, if you dont want people to play the game, then just keep it up.

If the Ottomans are insanely OP in the early game, then there should be some mechanism to check that. My suggestion was to harness the AI to prevent the Ottomans from ruining the game. Therefore its not really interesting to hear how one player or the other managed to beat the Ottomans one way or the other.

Im not asking for a nerf of the Ottos, Im asking for an AI-change to stop them from ruining the game. There is a difference.

I think everyone wants people to play the game, but rather than nerfing the already weak AI, we rather want you to become better at playing the game.

The ottomans are not "Insanely OP" in the early game, nor at any point in the game. They are just the strongest country by a fair margin to begin with. People in this thread are saying, that it would be nice if other countries could pose similar threats, instead of weakening the Ottomans.

What are you asking for if its not a Ottoman nerf? Besides people dont agree that they ruin the game. People who clearly understand the game mechanics better than you.

 

[pingouin2ter]

The game needs more challenges end game, sounds like your Ottomans is an exciting one.

 

[nfmarque]

So I've been playing EU4 alot lately. In my three latest games, the Ottomans just steamrolled everything at will. In my first game as France, they controlled everything from Sudan to the Baltic. In my second game as Sweden, they controlled everything from Sudan to half of Finland. In my third game as Austria, the Ottoman empire joined the protestant league (!!!) and just wiped me out.

This just ruins every game. I really dont care how big or bad they were in real life. In real life they were stopped. In EU4 this cannot be done. And it just ruins the game.

Suggestions:
1. Stop AI Ottomans from being able to get cores outside of their historical boundries. OR stop them from getting 3-star generals and multiple 30k stack armies that combine to impossible 160k -stacks that just destroys everything everywhere.
2. Make it impossible for nations with other state religion than protestant to join the protestant league. In my game as Austria, both catholic France and Sunni Ottomans joined the protestant league. I mean come on.

I am really annoyed right now, because I have wasted something like 100 hours of gameplay in the past few weeks. I like this game alot, but I cant bring myself to playing it anymore until the game breaking ottomans are patched.

What difficulty level are you playing? Is lucky nations on?
On very hard with lucky nations i saw ottomans with 70k ducats in debt like it was nothing, so i stopped playing in that level.

 

[Sharples88]

Meh, if you dont want people to play the game, then just keep it up.

11,000 people are playing right now. The game is seven years old.

Im really not interested in some sort of pissing contest about who knows more about the game. I have been playing EU since EU 2, so the "you need thousands of hours"-ppl, yeah, Ive got that. I put in 4000 hours betatesting HoI2 and Vicky. Its not like Im some random new guy just walking in from the street.

And yet you somehow can't beat the Ottomans while playing as France. I only gave the thousands of hours excuse to show you how in-depth strategy is within the game. Most players think that throwing numbers against an enemy in woodland terrain is enough. When you dwelve into it, you're missing out and so much detail.

The entire "you should play France and select this or that" is just so completely beside the point. I wanted to play Austria. It cant be done right now. That means this game is not working as it should. It is a game. As such there needs to be balance between fun and historical. If the Ottomans are insanely OP in the early game, then there should be some mechanism to check that. My suggestion was to harness the AI to prevent the Ottomans from ruining the game. Therefore its not really interesting to hear how one player or the other managed to beat the Ottomans one way or the other.

I've conquered The Ottomans as Fezzan, Ragusa, Serbia, Bosnia, Trebizond. Hell, I did it while they were allied with a mega Bohemia and France. "I wanted to play as Austria, it can't be done right now." You have absolutely no idea how easy this is to some players. Sorry to say it, but not being able to beat The Ottomans while you're Austria is just you being inexperienced at the game. It's not even luck based, it's just you.

"You sow what you reap when you let the Ottomans gobble up Poland and Russia"... yeah. I was Sweden. With an army of about 20-25k there is precious little you can do to try to "stop the Ottomans" in a war half a map away. And, this is also kind of the point. I should not be concerned about what happens in the Balkans in 1500 because if I dont the game will become pointless in 200 years. Clearly there is something wrong with the AI here.

20-25k is exactly the problem here. By 1600 (which is around the point they completely eat up Poland and sometimes Russia), I can get Sweden to have a forcelimit of more than 100. Did you stay static all that time as Sweden? Did you fight three-four independence wars under Denmark or failed to conquer the very rich trade node of Lubeck? If you're far away, you don't face these nations. You build up your empire first and then beat them.

Im not asking for a nerf of the Ottos, Im asking for an AI-change to stop them from ruining the game. There is a difference.

You are asking for a nerf to the Ottomans. AI isn't ruining the game, it's doing it's job. Infact, I'd argue the AI is too over-cautious with things like initiating battles.

 

[damnt512]

Meh, if you dont want people to play the game, then just keep it up.

Im really not interested in some sort of pissing contest about who knows more about the game. I have been playing EU since EU 2, so the "you need thousands of hours"-ppl, yeah, Ive got that. I put in 4000 hours betatesting HoI2 and Vicky. Its not like Im some random new guy just walking in from the street.

The entire "you should play France and select this or that" is just so completely beside the point. I wanted to play Austria. It cant be done right now. That means this game is not working as it should. It is a game. As such there needs to be balance between fun and historical. If the Ottomans are insanely OP in the early game, then there should be some mechanism to check that. My suggestion was to harness the AI to prevent the Ottomans from ruining the game. Therefore its not really interesting to hear how one player or the other managed to beat the Ottomans one way or the other.

"You sow what you reap when you let the Ottomans gobble up Poland and Russia"... yeah. I was Sweden. With an army of about 20-25k there is precious little you can do to try to "stop the Ottomans" in a war half a map away. And, this is also kind of the point. I should not be concerned about what happens in the Balkans in 1500 because if I dont the game will become pointless in 200 years. Clearly there is something wrong with the AI here.

Im not asking for a nerf of the Ottos, Im asking for an AI-change to stop them from ruining the game. There is a difference.

Get quality, offensive, innovative, and economy idea. Get the policy you get from these ideas that will give you 20% infantry combat ability and 5% discipline. Around 17th century your army will completely demolish the Ottomans. There, the easy way to completely destroy Ottomans, play tall a bit if you don't want a gamey tactic to demolish the Ottomans early. Any nation can do this because Ottoman AI always focused on quantity, making their army late game weaker, which is historical to be honest, since Ottoman army didn't modernize like the european army did.

 

[Soph]

Let's make things more spicy, so that one actual decleration from the Otttomans is game over instead of the result you described.

Pick a strong country in the region with a kickass achievement to get. I'm currently on a Hisn Kayfa run, but Candar, Trebizond, Cyprus, Athens, Albania, Theodore and Corfu all start similarily strong.

Obviously we play on ironman and since the AI is often terrible we give them very hard bonusses. Since this is all clearly not juicy enough, we refrain from allying any of the great powers and the HRE emperor, alhough if you manage to make someone a great power by being their loyal dog then that is permitted. Some extra houserules include no loans, no debasing currency and no exploits,

You ready? It's going to be a ride.

 

[oopsione]

This just ruins every game. I really dont care how big or bad they were in real life. In real life they were stopped. In EU4 this cannot be done. And it just ruins the game.

Suggestions:
30k stack armies that combine to impossible 160k -stacks that just destroys everything everywhere.

Combat Width is a thing. reserves take double the morale hit and the AI has literally NO idea to make proper stacks and reinforcing. If you can afford it after tech 13 try to get a full CW backline cannon stack with 1,5x infantry in front. reinforce with infantry only. AI doesnt know how to fight properly nor to reinforce properly so it should be a no brainer to win those battles. Pick some military ideas to buff disc/infCA/cannons, or just wait until the anatolian pips decline. your choice.

 

[lolada]

Seriously Ottomans are #1 world force at the time - to win vs them in first 100 years you can't just smash armies and expect instant win. For example its not that hard to win with Venice vs Ottomans both on land and sea.. might take you 2-3 tries.

Avoid battles - if you create large enough stack ottomans won't attack.. you need 30-40k units at least. Venice can get that at game start basically. Then you siege - they siege. Since you are smarter and AI is dumb they will exhaust themselves and you win. Once they approach with smaller stack than yours, attack in favorable terrain. Rinse and repeat to victory.

Later in game its even easier if you go and pick 2 military groups. Thats my lazy out vs them... Defensive + Offensive or Quality is enough to stackwipe them usually. They tend to pick Quantity.. they have tons of units but you can stackwipe them if they are spread aparat enough.

That said one other thing is important - you need large enough country to make wars easier - so they spread out their units. Venice has forts spread apart and its very helpful. France should really have no problems vs Ottos in hands of capable player.