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I play Austria (my favorite Kingdom, because it is just in the middle of all) at 'agressive' level('wild' doesn`t seem to make sense because then all enemies bleed themselves to death at the begining).
I am the world superpower with an unassailable position. Problem is, that my rivals don`t make any diplomatic effort to for an alliance against me. I have that much money that all research that should span 300 years is already done. I am not afraid of rebellion any more because I got so much money that I can buy all stability I need. I am the top scorer of points. I have done all upgrades. What shall I do now? Crash helpless counties?
I remember when playing 'Imperialism II' my rivals went more and more hostile the stronger I became. AND in this process they formed a strong alliance against me. That made it worth to keep on fighting.
Now I think of abandoning the game, because there is no thrill left at all.
This seems to be a core structural problem of the AI. I know that it is quite hard to devise a satisfactory performing AI, but that is part of the challenge to make a good game.

:)

In hoc signo vinces!
 

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You know, it bothered me in games like Civ 1&2, SMAC, and, to a lesser degree, Imperialism 2 that once you got to be the #1 nation/faction/whatever, everybody hated your guts (and of course, on the highest difficulty level, they always hated you no matter what). Then they'd form the only lasting alliances in the game. Civ 1 and 2 were kind of amusing in that respect -- you could have the Greeks down to one or two cities, and they'd still act as if they had the upper hand. ('You declare war on me? OK, Alexander, hear that funny noise? It's my tanks marching down main street in YOUR city.')

It may be a good idea in terms of play balance, but I found it extremely unrealistic. Of course *some* nations should see you as a threat and form an alliance to stop you, but *some* nations should just mind their own business and hope not to piss you off. And then there should be a few brown-nosers who'd bend over backwards to please you because you're the king of the hill.
 

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Originally posted by Kekkonen:

It may be a good idea in terms of play balance, but I found it extremely unrealistic. Of course *some* nations should see you as a threat and form an alliance to stop you, but *some* nations should just mind their own business and hope not to piss you off. And then there should be a few brown-nosers who'd bend over backwards to please you because you're the king of the hill.

Ehh what , thats really what europe was all about at that time , somebody gaining the upper hand ? lets form a mob and spank him down to our size .
Macravelli ruled. A heavy fortified landscape slowed invading armies while a fast diplomatic system built new alliances so that no superpower could rise . It wasnt until the french revolution when the modern state was born that this pattern where broken.
The AI should react faster to chances in its neighburhood and swap alliances more often
 

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I was actually thinking more in terms of games like Civilization 1 & 2. I still don't have EU.
 

Hartmann

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This was discussed before. Whereas I do not like it, when all AI nations gang up against the human player by default (like in CIV), I find the idea appealing, that there should be efforts by the AI to forge alliances against any player gaining hegemony status (be it human or AI).

Hartmann
 

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Hello Hartmann! Everybody should face this problem. If you got Superpower status by 1655, with no real enemies any more, with nothing to do any more, then you can abandon the game! That means that you didn`t get 300 years of playing fun but just 50% of it. That is NOT fair!!

:)
 

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Throughout this period, nations would gang up on each other.

What motivated the War of the Spanish Succession (England, Holland, Austria, and others vs France?) - fear that the French King would gain control of the Spanish throne and thus 'diplomatically annex' Spain in the long run, making France THE major power in Europe. The AI countries ought to start banding together the moment any country seems to be gaining an upper hand through huge armies and/or territorial gains.

In real life, everyone does hate your guts if you're the strongest. Think Rome after 160 BC. France during the reign of Louis XIV and Napoleon. Prussia during the time of Bismarck. England during the 1880s.
 
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Originally posted by strategy:
Prussia during the time of Bismarck. England during the 1880s.

Sorry but Bismarck diplomatic system islated almost totally France in Europe. bismarck had even succeeded having 'alliance' with both Russia and Austria.

And i don't remember how France and Germany made allaince against Great Britain during the 1880
 

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Originally posted by Kekkonen:
You know, it bothered me in games like Civ 1&2, SMAC, and, to a lesser degree, Imperialism 2 that once you got to be the #1 nation/faction/whatever, everybody hated your guts (and of course, on the highest difficulty level, they always hated you no matter what). Then they'd form the only lasting alliances in the game. Civ 1 and 2 were kind of amusing in that respect -- you could have the Greeks down to one or two cities, and they'd still act as if they had the upper hand. ('You declare war on me? OK, Alexander, hear that funny noise? It's my tanks marching down main street in YOUR city.')

It may be a good idea in terms of play balance, but I found it extremely unrealistic. Of course *some* nations should see you as a threat and form an alliance to stop you, but *some* nations should just mind their own business and hope not to piss you off. And then there should be a few brown-nosers who'd bend over backwards to please you because you're the king of the hill.
Still sid meir is a genius. Civ III comes out soon, after 5 years of other companies messing it up, activision's version stinks, and test of time was crap. Civ II was great though for it's day, considered widely to be the no. 2 game of all time, just behind half life. I think civ III will be much more realistic in world affairs, and AI competency, they've worked on it for almost 2 years. Can't wait to see it. Of course this only intrigues turn based fans, and fans of 4X games. But I like both real-time and turn based.



------------------
:'Strom':
 

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I don't know about the other games mentioned above, But..

Imperialism I and II were indeed very unforgiving on the loser. The major powers quickly ganged up on anyone percieved as weak.

I liked those games... Actually still do in the absence of EU still.....

Dug out some old Infocom adventure games yesterday.....Trying to give up smoking.....Will tyr anything to keep mind occupied......See seperate thread....

Storm.
 

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Sorry but Bismarck diplomatic system islated almost totally France in Europe. bismarck had even succeeded having 'alliance' with both Russia and Austria.

Which lasted exactly 4 years - hardly a success. :) IIRC, During his last years (after 1873), Bismarck was continually striving to avoid having central europe blow up in his face and getting Prussia drawn into a war (which was exactly what happened in 1914).

And i don't remember how France and Germany made allaince against Great Britain during the 1880

Hehe - France and Germany could hardly have allied against GB, as they were mortal enemies. How many friends did GB have in this period, though? But in any case you're right that GB in 1880s is a bad example, since we are at this time dealing primarily with a polarization of the superpowers in Europe (i.e., the ones that entered into WW1).

IMO, not everyone should hate the superpowers - there are always those who will try and please them instead - however there have always been 'movements' intent on trying to cut such superpowers down to size. It would be nice if the EU AI reflected this.

Merry christmas.
 
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I agree with those who say the AI should not gang up on the human player - any fix should be done with regards to power of the nation, not whether it is AI or human specifically.

I do not believe there should be some constant decline in relations with other nations as a nation gains power. That is also unrealistic. However, there could be some attempt at the forming of more massive alliances to contain the power of a rising nation. The examples of several nations opposing Louis XIV, Richelieu's assistance to the Protestant nations they were not friendly with, nations (like England) which helped the Dutch are all good examples, I believe. You don't necessarily want massive alliances among nations that hate each other, but they should be more likely to cooperate with each other, less likely to make separate peaces until the leading nation gives up some power, etc.

I'm not having as easy a time as some of you guys. Besides my general lack of skill, I wonder if it's partly due to the fact that I'm taking no loans (and playing with no inflation)... ? That makes it hard to build the manufactories, etc. which begin to help you steamroll the other nations as time goes on.
 

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Hehe - I rarely take loans so I don't think that is it, and only build the manufactories when I begin earning money.

My strategy is always to be extremely aggressive from the very start (the only period where you're in real danger in any case). Never engage in battle with the opponents armies unless you have to (you want your troops dying while trying to scale the enemy walls - not dying while trying to kill troops that should soon be yours).
Always sue for peace immediately with nations that you can not defeat. And knock your opponents off one by one.

In my current game as Venice (a great country, due to the 1/1/1/1 leaders) using these tactics, I managed to annex the Papacy and Savoy and defeated the French, then annexed Austria, Bohemia and Hungary - this in the first 17 years of the game with no reloads.
 
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Wow. No, I'm not aggressive enough, I see. What portion of your income do you take into your Treasury? Do you do any research, or are you just building armies? With the new siege resolution, how can you do that - why can you take cities faster than the AI? (In this example, it might not be as valid since the Venetians get the siege bonus; but in general, how?)
 

Daztek

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'The AI countries ought to start banding together the moment any country seems to be gaining an upper hand through huge armies and/or territorial gains.'

i agree with strategy

i just played my *first* campaign game on normal/aggressive as france and had to give it away in 1704 because i had conquered everything i wanted in the new world and old, exhausted the tech tree, had well over 2,000,000 men under arms, 500 three-deckers, 14,000 ducats in the bank, and no other great power gave a stuff.

and this is the game i play trying to learn the system! in german! i've been ripped off 90 years - they promised till 1792.

sid meier would never leave you feeling like this. he'd leave you feeling clobbered from the start.

the notion of playing a minor is a cop out. an earlier writer conquered italy, austria and hungary as venice! how silly.

major or minor, it makes no difference, the AI can't cope with human players.

seems this game is best played as multiplayer if you want to play it seriously. so. is it stable for multiplayer yet?

grumpily,

daz

PS i don't understand why they have different attrition rates for cav/art/inf. they should all be the same.
 

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OK, now I have played more than 200 years of a Grand Campaign as France (Normal/Normal, my first GC, for learning purposes), so I may finally claim some insight in this matter.

The 'strategy' text for France in the start screen says something along the lines of 'France has a very good chance of becoming a superpower, which can only be stopped by an alliance of nations'. I found this to be true; in the early 1700s, my France is an absolute behemoth of unparalleled military and economic power. In addition to the starting provinces, France controls most of what used to be Spanish Netherlands, Italy all the way to Rome, all of what used to be Venice, Switzerland, the Southwesternmost provinces of Austria (Tyrolia + the one producing gold, the name of which escapes me now). Furthermore, a good chunk of the small states of the HRE are either vassals or annexed provinces, and I also have a rich (although not enormously large) colonial empire.

I'm not trying to pass for a strategic genius, this is all because France is easy. *Really* easy. At least if you don't run into an united allied front in Europe – and at least this time around, I didn't. Spain was powerful early on, but then the southernmost provinces declared independence, and it was all downhill for the Spaniards from there on; the Iberian peninsula wasn't big enough for three (or four – France has a foothold there as well), and Spain, spread thin because of rapid colonial growth, was in deep trouble with Portugal and Granada (and France). Aside from grabbing a few provinces from Spain, Portugal didn't seem to have much ambitions, military or otherwise, in Europe, but was able to put together a flourishing colonial empire; they seemed to view Spain as their main adversary, and once they were reduced to a shadow of their former glory, they did not seem interested in the rest of Europe.

England was weak in the beginning, and I drove them out of continental Europe very early (and also annexed their ally Navarra in the same war, which was nice). After that, they were kept busy by the Scots in the domestic front and the creation of a large colonial empire outside the British isles. Most of the time they did have an alliance with Portugal – an ideal ally for a country which didn't seem to care what happened in Central Europe.

Austria was initially busy with annexing Bohemia, then Hungary (not diplomatically but in a war – they ended up on opposing sides in a war between two alliances), and finally a good chunk of Poland and a few provinces from the Ottoman Empire. It looked like Austria viewed the last two as their most significant threats, and they managed to strike severe blows against both, thanks partly to their alliance with Russia (France was also involved in the late 1500s, but in name only). In the late 1600s, Austria and Russia had jointly conquered most of Polish territory, and were then thrown into a war against each other – a war which failed to produce significant results one way or the other, but was nonetheless a significant drain on both countries.

The Ottoman Empire got beaten in the European front, even though they still managed to hold on to most of the Balkans. They did enjoy some success in fighting the smaller islamic countries, but even if they had wanted to, they, like Russia, were geographically too far from France to stop the French expansion in Central Europe

Sweden became the most prominent power in the Baltic Sea, but they couldn't expand to Central Europe. Saxony united most of the small states in Northern Germany, and was in fact powerful enough to stop the advances of Sweden through Jutland and other formerly Danish territories (Danmark itself was reduced to a couple of island provinces south of Skåne, thanks to Saxony). Russia did the identical trick in Karelia.

The reason I went through the above was this: I don't think any of the other powers acted in an unrealistic or idiotic manner. They were all either fighting their 'natural' enemies or concentrating on gaining territory in the new world. What they *did* do was look the other way while France took its first steps towars a superpower status, and then keep looking the other way while we whipped or bribed a large part of Europe into submission. While I think that I shouldn't have faced hostile alliances because I just completed my first annexation or simply because I'm the human-controlled country, I should have faced a strong, united front *at some point*, because I was clearly running away from the pack in terms of power. Not everyone hates the supreme number one nation, but to keep things interesting, it should always have a strong opposite pole, either a close number two or a number of smaller countries acting as one.