Game of Thrones mod

[Umkharss]

Culture group: First Men

wildling
northman
crannogman
​

It's actually a bit more than that. Among the Wildlings there are the regular, more numerous ones but also the Thenns, the Hornfoot men, the Giants (!) (sticking more or less with the Thenns, both groups speaking the Old Tongue), the Skagosi tribes and the Ice-river clans.

Among the Northmen, the Wolfwood and hill clans stand out as being only and loosely obedient to house Stark.
I think that the clans from the Mountains of the Moon should be counted as First Men.

The Children of the Forest could be added aswell.

 

[the_hdk]

How about the wildlings in the Vale?

edit:


1. yes. Seems good
2. 1st but edited a bit (check down)
3. either 1000+AL or 8000+AL seems good to me. Sadly just AL won't work. TBH I like 1000+AL better as stated before its more close to the real CK dates.
4. Nope.

Now I'd change the cultures into this:

Culture group: Free Folk
wildling

(for now keep it simple, but add all the stuff Umkharss said later in)

Culture group: Mountain clans
mountain_clanman

Culture group: First Men
skagosi
hill_clanman
northman
crannogman

Culture group: Andal
riverlander
westerman
valeman
crownlander
stormlander
reachman

Culture group: Ironborn
ironborn

Culture group: Dornish (some suggest to use just one culture for all Dorne)
stone_dornish
sand_dornish
salt_dornish

Culture group: Valyrian
valyrian


I'd change the First Men and split them up. (for game reasons, I assume people within same culture group will marry eachother more often)

 

[Hroppa]

Those are clanmen, not necessarily Wildlings. My first though is that Umkharss might be right; they should be First Men Clans culture. On the other hand, they certainly behave an awful lot like Wildlings...

 

[the_hdk]

Those are clanmen, not necessarily Wildlings. My first though is that Umkharss might be right; they should be First Men Clans culture. On the other hand, they certainly behave an awful lot like Wildlings...

check my edit above

 

[Hroppa]

I'd put Skagosi and Mountain Clanmen in the Free Folk culture group. Otherwise, that looks good to me.

 

[the_hdk]

I'd put Skagosi and Mountain Clanmen in the Free Folk culture group. Otherwise, that looks good to me.

I disagree. Skagosi are First Men who have more ties to Northmen than to wildlings.
Same with Mountain clansman. They do not interact with them. And putting them in the same culture group is asking for inter-marrige between them.

 

[Hroppa]

Hm, I guess there's no reason not to put Mountain Clans in their own culture group. But I think the Skagosi, while technically First Men by heritage (as are the Wildlings!), deserve being placed with the Free Folk by culture. They're meant to have cannibalised the people on the neighbouring island, I believe. They revolted against Winterfell 100 years before the books begin. And it's not like they send much in the way of taxes or troops to the Lord of the North, even when technically his subjects.

 

[the_hdk]

Hm, I guess there's no reason not to put Mountain Clans in their own culture group. But I think the Skagosi, while technically First Men by heritage (as are the Wildlings!), deserve being placed with the Free Folk by culture. They're meant to have cannibalised the people on the neighbouring island, I believe. They revolted against Winterfell 100 years before the books begin. And it's not like they send much in the way of taxes or troops to the Lord of the North, even when technically his subjects.

on the wiki Skagosi are listed under the Northmen
link

they are not seen as Free Folk. they share alot of characteristics but they keep to them-selfs. and they are only part of the north de jure. at least at the start of our scenario

 

[Magnos III]

3. Which start date should we use for now?

Aegon's Landing of course! That's how the calendar is portrayed in the books after all.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Timeline_of_major_events

 

[the_hdk]

3. Which start date should we use for now?

Aegon's Landing of course! That's how the calendar is portrayed in the books after all.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Timeline_of_major_events

read the last 4 pages. We can't use that date cause we can't go into the minus years.

 

[Hroppa]

That's the wiki; it's not a canon source. With their ferocity and lawlessness, they're closer to Wildlings than Northmen. A greater relationship penalty to Northerners is appropriate (as I say, they rebelled). Given their customs, I'd say they make better Free Folk than Northmen. The alternative would be putting them in their own culture group.

Edit: They should definitely be de jure part of the North, though.

 

[AlecTrevylan006]

Random thought that I know is way ahead but...

Unsullied: Mercs with REALLLLY high startup cost, but VERY low upkeep?

I'm not sure what stuff about mercs we could edit, but I was wondering if that would work. Seems to fit flavorwise and would be nice and unique.

 

[Hroppa]

Would be good to give them a morale bonus too.

 

[knuckey]

1. Do you agree with the religious setup proposed above?
2. Which way to represent cultures do you prefer? Most pros and cons for each option have been discussed in the last two pages or so.
3. Which start date should we use for now?
4. Any last changes to provinces?

1: Yes
2: I like having the differing regions having their own culture. Mainly because you can regionalise first and dynasty names and so that characters are more likely to marry amongst their own region. We also probably need cultures/religions for The Free Cities, ive come across a couple of characters in The Reach of free city culture so far.
3:Well ive been using AL+8000 for now but im cool with that or AL+1000 tbh
4:Just that one name swap for The Reach ive indicated on the spreadsheet.

I was wondering how many holdings on average we should be aiming for in each province? I'm thinking for The Reach that major canon provinces (like Goldengrove, Cider Hall etc) could have 3 holdings, other non-canon provinces chould have 1 or 2 holdings. Also I reckon The Arbor could have 7 as it's a one province duchy, and that Oldtown and Highgarden could have 4, possibly upgrading their holdings a bit so they are richer and have more levies.

 

[Hroppa]

Those numbers sound about right to me (although remember that the empty Northern wastes have 1 holding per province, so very few if any Reach provinces should). Remember to include extra buildable holdings in all provinces, too. I'd say you're looking for at least 4 named baronies per province (with one or two of those being unbuilt).

 

[Umkharss]

You can expand the Valyrian group by splitting it between Old Valyrian and Free Cities cultures.

Some religion could be added if you want to make intervene Faceless men (Many Face God), the Unsullied (some Lady of the Spear if I recall), or other easterners (many religions are known over there). If it is ever possible to play around AL, remember that Old Valyrians had their own polytheist religion (not the Seven).

 

[unmerged(75409)]

Culture group: Dornish (some suggest to use just one culture for all Dorne)
stone_dornish
sand_dornish
salt_dornish

CK2 lets you freely customize portraits by character culture, so it would make sense to have three cultures in Dorne. The books don't say much about cultural differences, but they make a point about how the three groups look differently. Dorne is supposed to be the ASOIAF version of early medieval Spain, with sand dornish as Saracen types and stone dornish as european type Asturians / Galicians / Basque, so it would be easy to adapt the characters to that.

 

[Minchandre]

With regards to Dornish cultures, maybe it's possible to just mod the "wrong culture" penalty so it only applies between culture groups, and not within a culture? Thus, the Stony Dornish Daynes won't care that their Martell overlords are Salty Dornish, but they would damn well care if they were conquered by the Andal Tyrells.

That'll also add some diplomatic distance between the "Andal realms", and the North, Dorne, and the Iron Isles, which seems appropriate.

Also, regarding Unsullied: holding of slaves is looked down upon very, very strongly in Westeros; you'd need a huge relationship hit with everyone.

 

[Cabezaestufa]

1: Yes
2: I like having the differing regions having their own culture. Mainly because you can regionalise first and dynasty names and so that characters are more likely to marry amongst their own region. We also probably need cultures/religions for The Free Cities, ive come across a couple of characters in The Reach of free city culture so far.
3:Well ive been using AL+8000 for now but im cool with that or AL+1000 tbh
4:Just that one name swap for The Reach ive indicated on the spreadsheet.

I was wondering how many holdings on average we should be aiming for in each province? I'm thinking for The Reach that major canon provinces (like Goldengrove, Cider Hall etc) could have 3 holdings, other non-canon provinces chould have 1 or 2 holdings. Also I reckon The Arbor could have 7 as it's a one province duchy, and that Oldtown and Highgarden could have 4, possibly upgrading their holdings a bit so they are richer and have more levies.

I think major cities like Oldtown and King's Landing should have a full set of baronies, just like Constantinople in vanilla. The Arbor would be a good candidate too. Lannisport should have six, and White Harbor/Gulltown, five.

For the rest, I'd give important places such as Lord Paramount/poweful dukes capitals three or four, canon provinces two or three and canon sh*tholes/non canon provinces one or two.

By type:

- North: Either a single castle or a castle + a town.
- Riverlands: More towns and septs than usual (in the case of septs, this should still be a small number). More towns than castles.
- Vale: More or less the same number of towns and castles.
- Westerlands: More or less the same number of towns and castles. More castles in the north, more towns in the south?
- The Iron Isles: Almost no towns, basically all castles.
- The Crownlands: More or less the same number of towns and castles.
- The Stormlands: Far more castles than towns.
- The Reach: More towns than castles, but not by much. A bigger proportion of castles in the Dornish Marches, more towns along the Mander and near Oldtown.
- Dorne: More or less the same number of towns and castles. More castles in the mountains.

And then sprinkle some septs here and there. Definitely, always one on major cites and probably region capitals.

Of course, once everything is done there's a nice way of checking our results: We just raise all levies and count the total number of troops available to each faction. The numbers should be somewhat close to this:

- The North: 30,000
- The Riverlands: 35,000
- The Vale: 30,000
- The West: 45,000-50,000
- Iron Isles: 20,000-25,000
- Crownlands: 25,000
- The Stormlands: 20,000-25,000
- The Reach: 80,000+
- Dorne: 25,000

(from various threads on westeros.org forum, these seem about the most reasonable numbers for me; YMMV).

It's probably going to be pretty hard to reach a consensus on these numbers, but we'll eventually need to deal with it, though, and I think the sooner the better... It's important for testing and balance issues, and it would be useful to have a target when assigning settlements to provinces.

 

[Hroppa]

Minchandre: We can make the wrong culture penalty as large or small as we like. Similarly, and independently, we can alter the culture group penalty. I think the current consensus is to reduce the culture penalty (though perhaps not removing it entirely), and leave the culture group penalty where it is. Basically leaving us as you say

Leviathan: I believe that we can actually freely mod portraits by graphical culture, independent from culture.

Cabezaestufa: If we get too few levies across the board (or too many), we can change the number of levies raised per barony. One issue I'd note is that there are balance consequences if we end up with too many castles; vanilla is designed with the 1 castle, 1 town, 1 bishopric setup in mind. If there are too many castles, you won't be able to afford to pay your troops. We'll have to see how it ends up; there are all sorts of things we may have to tweak to balance things.