Game of Thrones mod

[Nick B II]

Oops, sorry!


GRRM did say that, but I never really believed it. He has Robert and his cumbersome entourage travel from KL to Winterfell in ~50 days which is very fast compared to, say, the travel times you see in the 1st crusade or other medieval histories where people cover a lot of distance by foot and horse. For example the frankish crusaders took ~4 months merely for the trip from Germany to Constantinople. If you imagine those kind of people walking across a continent the size of South America, I have a hard time seeing them cross half that continent in just 50 days.

Keep in mind the Crusaders had infantry. They also had an entire Army, which basically means they brought a massive traffic jam every place they went. An army like that moving 15 miles (24 km) a day is making very good time. 10 Miles (16 km) is more likely.

OTOH the King's Court are all mounted. That means 30 miles (48 km) a day would be expected, with 70 (113 km) possible on a good day.

And they're all good days. All the horses are good horses, they've got multiple remounts, they're all decent horseman, they've got good weather, and they're on an excellent road. To cross half of South America you'd have to travel about 3000 miles, which is 60 miles (96 km) a day if you've got 50 days to do it.

So mathematically speaking this trip was quite possible. Unlikely, but possible.

Nick

 

[Wezqu]

GRRM did say that, but I never really believed it. He has Robert and his cumbersome entourage travel from KL to Winterfell in ~50 days which is very fast compared to, say, the travel times you see in the 1st crusade or other medieval histories where people cover a lot of distance by foot and horse. For example the frankish crusaders took ~4 months merely for the trip from Germany to Constantinople. If you imagine those kind of people walking across a continent the size of South America, I have a hard time seeing them cross half that continent in just 50 days.

You seem to forget that there is no straight road from Germany to Constantinople. During the time period the roads between were not really anything you could transport large army with horses and equipment fast. Kingsroad in Westeros is made for transport big armies fast to north or south.

 

[unmerged(209891)]

A comment about distance:

I'm not sure if I heard this from the authors mouth directly, or just some knowledgeable people on Westeros.org, but the common opinion seems to be that the "as big as South America" comment is often understood, and that Westeros is actually as LONG as South America, while not having nearly the same total surface area. Additionally, a good chunk of that area is going to be the land beyond the wall. So going from King's Landing, which isn't that far south, to Winterfell on horses in that time span isn't impossible, especially considering they have the Kingsroad, something which didn't exist in medieval Europe.

 

[Hroppa]

Native Englishman volunteering for barony-naming duty: I'm focusing on the North.

Edit: I'm bolding baronies I'm adding that shouldn't be in existence at the start of the game. Easy enough to undo if it isn't helpful.

 

[Galaahd]

Ok, who is the funny guy who deleted everything from the file?

EDIT: ok, now it is back. For a moment the file was empty with just "LOL" written in it. Waching Cabezaesstufa working Good work, thanks.
EDIT2: what do (T) and (C) mean? What about "*"?

 

[Hroppa]

Town and Castle.

 

[Cabezaestufa]

Ok, since some annoying kid was being annoying I made the document invitation only. PM your gmail address if you want to get editing permissions.

Also, '*' means that the name is non-canon. You should add it to any barony, town, etc that you make up. And there's also the very rare (S) which means sept, which I assume will be our version of bishoprics. Probably there should be precious few of these.

 

[knuckey]

Cabezaestufa- Your pm inbox is full. Ill send you my gmail address as soon as i can.

 

[the_hdk]

350 might be too much. we'll see. we can always merge provs

 

[unmerged(75409)]

You seem to forget that there is no straight road from Germany to Constantinople. During the time period the roads between were not really anything you could transport large army with horses and equipment fast. Kingsroad in Westeros is made for transport big armies fast to north or south.

The crusaders just had to follow the Danube actually, and then head south through Bulgaria and Thrace. The earlier part must have been a busy trade route back then, and from Bulgaria onwards to Constantinople that was a route that many Byzantine armies took so it can't have been that difficult? And Robert's entourage might have been mounted, but the king and queen are said to have travelled in a cumbersome carriage so they were not THAT much faster than a fast walking army.

My interpretation of distances in Westeros used to be that it's intended to be like this:


But this again makes travel times in Westeros unnaturally fast. The distance Regensburg-Constantinople is here just equivalent to KL-Moat Cailin.

If the kings road was a well maintained Roman style highway, cobbled all the way from King's Landing to Winterfell, maintained by a standing army of builders paid by the King and the Lord Paramounts, then the times would make sense. Roman armies did move freakishly fast.

But if this is supposed to be a medieval world with roads being in a condition comparable to central/western European middle ages, then it's way too fast IMO. If we get to build road improvements in CK2 like we could in CK1, then you'll have to add a lot of them so Tywin and Robb get to do the back-and-forth marches they did in the books

 

[Wezqu]

Still if I'm not wrong Kingsroad is two lane road not one lane cart road. It only becomes like that when you go the to the North. Even if its not paved you can move fast with horses and decent speed on foot. Roman armies are not compratible with how fast the king got back to the south as they were moving on horse and roman armies usually were consisted mostly of infantry. Those back-and-forth marches aren't happening in short period of time. Some were but even those are doable.

 

[Cabezaestufa]

Cabezaestufa- Your pm inbox is full. Ill send you my gmail address as soon as i can.

Just emptied it, sorry about that.

 

[Galaahd]

Up.

How many baronies' names should be added, for each province?

Also, does the number of baronies for each province influence its base tax value? If so, it wouldn't make much sense to add that many baronies in some areas.

EDIT: just read the comments below the Dorne's chart, well done. It's the way to go *thumb up*

 

[AlecTrevylan006]

Huge Game of Thrones fan, returning to Paradox fandom after half a decade off.

Having not played many of the more recent Paradox games than the original Crusader Kings, I am nevertheless enthusiastic about CK2 and especially a new Game of Thrones mod. Due to my lack of experience with more recent games my modding use will be slow at first, but if there's any lore related "busywork" that is needed I'd love to help.

 

[Cabezaestufa]

Up.

How many baronies' names should be added, for each province?

Also, does the number of baronies for each province influence its base tax value? If so, it wouldn't make much sense to add that many baronies in some areas.

EDIT: just read the comments below the Dorne's chart, well done. It's the way to go *thumb up*

I'd say the more names the better, since we can shuffle them around for provinces which might lack names, and in any case we'll probably need as many as we can if (as I suspect) we'll also need names for not-yet-built settlements.

About number of baronies, I also think this should depend on how rich/important is the province in question. Places like the Arbor, Oldtown or King's Landing should be maxed out, and provinces like these small islands near the Fingers or some semi-barren Northern provinces should only have one settlement.

Dawid had a good idea with his additions. Which houses do you guys think should be given duke-level titles in each region? For example, in the North I would propose the following:

- Starks (obviously)
- Bolton
- Karstark
- Glover
- Ryswell
- Tallhart
- Manderly
- Reed
- One of the houses in Skagos
- Flint? Umber?

Also, should we make all minor houses within their duchies vassals to them unless otherwise noted in the books or should we make most counts directly subordinate to Lords Paramount?

 

[yourworstnightm]

I'd say the more names the better, since we can shuffle them around for provinces which might lack names, and in any case we'll probably need as many as we can if (as I suspect) we'll also need names for not-yet-built settlements.

About number of baronies, I also think this should depend on how rich/important is the province in question. Places like the Arbor, Oldtown or King's Landing should be maxed out, and provinces like these small islands near the Fingers or some semi-barren Northern provinces should only have one settlement.

Dawid had a good idea with his additions. Which houses do you guys think should be given duke-level titles in each region? For example, in the North I would propose the following:

- Starks (obviously)
- Bolton
- Karstark
- Glover
- Ryswell
- Tallhart
- Manderly
- Reed
- One of the houses in Skagos
- Flint? Umber?

Also, should we make all minor houses within their duchies vassals to them unless otherwise noted in the books or should we make most counts directly subordinate to Lords Paramount?

The problems with dukes is they need counts under them, but we don't know of any houses under Karstarks and the Boltons. In the North everyone seems to be directly under Winterfell.

 

[Galaahd]

Well, a duke does not have to have bannermen in order to be a Duke. They will have less prestige, of course, but still they can be dukes. Just give the Duke titles to major houses, and every lord should be a Stark bannerman, unless it is explicitedly proven wrong in the lore.

I'm a bit busy with university these days (until wednesday, more or less) so I can't do much. Wednesday, though, I will read the guide and the wiki thoroughly, and I will write a list of which ones should be the major houses for each region, imho, and what other houses they should have as bannermen.

 

[Cabezaestufa]

The problems with dukes is they need counts under them, but we don't know of any houses under Karstarks and the Boltons. In the North everyone seems to be directly under Winterfell.

That's why I asked, otherwise it would be a no brainer to just put counts under their corresponding duke. Then again, if I remember correctly GRRM hasn't been that specific about feudal relationships between houses, so it might very well be the case that most minor houses aren't sworn directly to their Lords Paramount (all conflict in the books until now has involved at least Lords Paramount clashing against each other, we haven't seen small scale squabbles where a "duke" might call his sworn houses).

Ultimately I think it will boil down to what we think will make for a better gameplay experience, even if we have to take some licenses.

 

[vanin]

Also, should we make all minor houses within their duchies vassals to them unless otherwise noted in the books or should we make most counts directly subordinate to Lords Paramount?

I like that division, with Umbers as dukes considering what a major figure the Greatjon seemed to be under Robb. When it comes to counts being directly under Lords Paramount there is the new mechanic in the game, the de jure borders, which will cause dukes to fight counts who are not vassals as well as other dukes who possess territory part of their de jure duchy if the crown authority is low, and generally will simply be unhappy about the whole situation. Therefore I would put dukes in control of the entire duchys unless it is clearly stated in the books that there is a feud over land going on between two houses, where the de jure borders could represent such feuds. The Barckens and Blackwoods (if I remember correctly?) comes to mind.

 

[Galaahd]

The guide says that House Condon is sworn to House Cerwyn.

I have not found any other relevant information on the houses of the North.