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Galaahd

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Houses of the Iron Islands:

House Blacktyde

Ranking Minor
Lands Blacktyde
Castle Blacktyde Castle
Arms Vairy, green and black
The Blacktydes are led by Lord Baelor Blacktyde, who has adopted
both the styling and the Faith of the mainland, a result of having
been held hostage some eight years in Oldtown. He tends to dress in
the vairy of his house, which he often adorns with a pin of the sevensided
star of his adopted religion. Baelor is also the captain of the ship
Nightflyer.

House Botley

Ranking Minor
Lands Lordsport on Pyke
Castle Lordsport castle
Arms A school of silver fish on a field of pale green
The Botleys rule Lordsport from the newly rebuilt keep that overlooks
the village. They have managed to reconstruct most of what was destroyed
during the final days of the Greyjoy Rebellion. The house is led
by Sawane Botley, who has fathered six sons: Harren, Tristifer, Symond,
Harlon, Vickon, and Bennarion.
Tristifer was among the boys brought to foster at Pyke after Balon’s
Rebellion, and he and Asha Greyjoy soon took an interest in each other.
They were eventually discovered at their play, and Balon had Tristifer
sent to Blacktyde as a ward of Lord Baelor. Tristifer still remembers
Asha with fondness, though she would sooner forget the encounters
had ever occurred.
Sawane Botley also has a brother, Germund, and two half-brothers,
Sargon and Lucimore. Germund has also fathered two sons, Balon and
Quellon, while Sargon is responsible for siring Wex, a mute bastard.

House Codd

Ranking Minor
Motto Though All Men Do Despise Us
The Codds are a proud family who have taken the low opinion their fellow
ironborn hold of them and incorporated it into their motto. Lefthand
Lucas and Eldred are two members of House Codd. Its warriors
are known for fighting with nets.

House Drumm

Ranking Minor
Lands Old Wyk
Arms A white, skeletal hand on a field of red
Dunstan Drumm, who is called the Bone Hand, the Drumm, and the
Lord of Old Wyk, is both the head of his house and captain of the
Thunderer. While still a capable fighter, he is approaching old age; however,
he sometimes speaks at such length—especially when discussing
the exploits of his family—that some might think him several decades
from the grave. Dunstan’s ancestor Hilmar Drumm acquired (by trickery,
if Dunstan is to be believed) the sword Red Rain, which was forged
of Valyrian steel and is passed from one generation of Drumms to the
next. Dunstan has two sons, Denys and Donnel, who have both earned
the reputation of being hardy warriors in their own right. The family has
the benefit of Andrik the Unsmiling’s service, oft regarded as one of the
greatest warriors on the Iron Islands.

House Farwynd

Ranking Minor
Lands Lonely Light and Sealskin Point
Arms Per fess - below a black sea with crested line, a black
longship, outlined against a red setting sun on orange
The Farwynds are mostly located along the western shoreline of Great
Wyk and the small isles within its vicinity. They are viewed as odd by
their fellow ironborn, and rumors abound that the Farwynd branch living
on Lonely Light—a small island some eight days sail to the northwest
that is headed by Gylbert Farwynd—are actually skinchangers.
Gylbert is tall and thin, and his face has a distinct melancholic cast. He
has at least three sons: Gyles, Ygon, and Yohn.
Another prominent branch of the Farwynd family is the Farwynds of
Sealskin Point. Triston Farwynd is the head of this house.

House Goodbrother

Ranking Minor
Lands Great Wyk, Old Wyk, and Orkmont
Castles Hammerhorn, Shatterstone, Downdelving, Crow Spike
Keep, and Corpse Lake
Arms A black war horn with a band of gold, on a field of red
A large family with a number of lesser branches, House Goodbrother
has a presence on most of the Islands. The main branch is the Goodbrothers
of Hammerhorn, found on Great Wyk, about six leagues from
the shore. The castle is a hulking structure, dark and brooding, and is
fashioned from great stone blocks quarried from the cliffs behind it.
Beneath its walls, one can find mines and caves, each yawning like
toothless mouths.
Powerful, they posses nearly forty longships. Lord Gorold Goodbrother
heads this house and has sired a trio of identical boys (Greydon,
Gran, and Gormond), as well as a dozen daughters (including Gysella
and Gwin). The Goodbrothers are distinguished primarily for their
unique practice of wearing sashes woven of goat hair. Unusually, these
Goodbrothers style themselves like the lords of the green lands and
even keep the council of a maester, a slim man named Murenmure.
The other branches include the Goodbrothers of Shatterstone, headed
by Norne Goodbrother on Old Wyk. The Goodbrothers of Crow
Spike Keep, Corpse Lake, and Downdelving have their holdings on
Orkmont, and they are considered minor lords at best.

House Harlaw

Ranking Major
Lands Harlaw
Castle Ten Towers
Arms A silver scythe on black, but many variations exist
After Greyjoy, the Harlaws are perhaps one of the most influential
houses in the Iron Islands, a position solidified by the marriage of Lady
Alannys to Balon Greyjoy. The head of the house is Alannys’s brother
Rodrick, who is known as “The Reader.” Rodrick earned his nickname
due to his love of books, a habit that is viewed as somewhat unnatural
for an ironborn. Rodrick lost his only two sons off Fair Isle in the trap
set by Stannis Baratheon. He is currently unwed and without an heir.
The Reader makes his seat at Ten Towers, where he is served by his
steward Three-Tooth, a frightful woman of considerable age who was
once known as Twelve-Tooth and whose current appellation may be
somewhat euphemistic.
Sea Song is the Reader’s personal longship, though he uses it but
rarely; he prefers to sit in the Book Tower, lost in the tomes that gave
the building its name.
There are a number of Harlaw cousins spread out across the island,
each of whom has created a variation of the traditional sigil of their
house. Boremund the Blue, one of Rodrick’s cousins and the master of
Harridan Hill, places his scythe upon a field of pale blue. Hotho Humpback,
the master of the Tower of Glimmering, uses the same device and
field but with an embattled border. Ser Harras, who is called the Knight
and carries the Valyrian steel blade Nightfall, rules at Grey Garden; he
chose to quarter his sigil in order to display the peacock of his mother’s
house. Finally, Lord Rodrick’s great uncle, Sigfryd Silverhair, displays
two scythes counterchanged on a field divided bendwise.

House Humble

Ranking Landed
The Humbles are considered of small account since the house originated
from the descendants of thralls and salt wives. Will and Quellon
are two of its members.

House Ironmaker

Ranking Landed
Erik Ironmaker, called Erik Anvil-Breaker and Erik the Just, is the
most prominent figure in his house—in both senses of the word. He
was given the name of Anvil-Breaker due to the size of his preferred
weapon: a long war hammer with a steel head the size of a loaf of bread.
That weapon, and his ability to wield it, earned Erik a reputation as a
fearsome warrior. However, he is now nearing ninety years of age and
twenty stones in weight, and it is rumored his age has left him bereft of
much of his former strength, to the point that he is unable to lift either
his hammer or his own girth. His hair is pure white, from his head to
the beard that blankets him from his cheeks to his thighs.
The Anvil-Breaker is prone to boasting that he has more heirs than
he is able to count, and indeed, he has a number of both grandchildren
and great-grandchildren. Numbered amongst his grandsons are Urek,
Thormor, and Dagon.

House Kenning

Ranking Minor
Lands Harlaw
Arms
The cloudy hand of the Storm God, rendered in pale
grey with yellow lightning flashing from his fingertips,
presented on a field of black
House Kenning was once a bitter rival of House Harlaw, but the Kennings
were eventually defeated by the Harlaws. They now serve their
conquerors as vassals. Ralf Kenning is one of the prominent members
of this house.

House Merlyn

Ranking Minor
Lands Pebbleton
Castle Pebbleton Tower
Arms Green, intertwined waterspouts on a field of white
House Merlyn makes rules it’s demesne from a towerhouse that sits
above the village of Pebbleton. Meldred Merlyn, the head of the house,
is a bald, portly man who styles himself a lord and dresses the part by
adorning himself in the furs and velvets more commonly seen on the
mainland.

House Myre

Ranking Minor
Lands Harlaw
Arms Ten black nooses, 4-3-2-1, on a field of white with a
blood-red border
House Myre is a minor house with lands on the isle of Harlaw. The
members of House Myre were once responsible for seeing ten men
hanged in a day, a feat they saw fit to memorialize on their family device.
They once thought to challenge the Harlaws for supremacy of Harlaw
Island, but the attempt was quashed, and the Myres were reduced to the
status of vassals as a result.

House Netley

Ranking Landed
House Netley is a minor house of the Iron Islands, one with little prestige
or influence.

House Orkwood

Ranking Minor
Lands Orkmont
Arms Dark green pine trees bunched together on a field of
yellow
House Orkwood is another minor house of the Iron Islands, with holdings
on the isle of Orkmont.

House Saltcliffe

Ranking Minor
Lands Saltcliffe
Arms A nine-headed serpent, black on silver
House Saltcliffe presumably controls the entirety of Saltcliffe, one of
the smaller isles in the Iron Islands.

House Sharp

Ranking Landed
Members of this house include clever Alvyn Sharp, Harmund, and his
son Harrag, also known as the Sheepstealer.

House Shepherd

Ranking Landed
House Shepherd is a house with little prestige.

House Sparr

Ranking Minor
Lands Great Wyk
Arms Oak saltire on blue
The present head of this minor house is The Sparr, an old man with a
hatchet face, watery eyes, and a tremulous voice. He has a single son,
Steffarion.

House Stonehouse

Ranking Minor
Lands Old Wyk
Arms Black brazier on a grey masonry field
The head of this house is known simply as The Stonehouse. Red Ralf
Stonehouse, one of the prominent members of the family, is a warrior
of some note.

House Stonetree

Ranking Minor
Lands Harlaw
Arms A grey stone tree, devoid of leaves, on a black field
House Stonetree is a vassal of House Harlaw. The Stonetrees have considerable
holdings, many ships, and fierce warriors, but they kneel before
the scythe.

House Sunderly

Ranking Minor
Lands Saltcliffe
Arms
A pale pink drowned man, hair streaming upwards and
fish nibbling at his limbs, floating upright on a bluegreen
field,
House Sunderly is one of the houses that lays claim to the small island
of Saltcliffe.

House Tawney

Ranking Minor
Lands Orkmont
Arms A scourge of red and black nettles on a white field
House Tawney is a minor house on Orkmont.

House Volmark

Ranking Minor
Lands Harlaw
Arms A black leviathan on a sea of grey
The Volmarks are another house on Harlaw who control large parcels of
land. Maron Volmark is the current head of house. Volmark has large holdings,
numerous ships, and fierce warriors, but they are sworn to Harlaw.

House Weaver

Ranking Landed
House Weaver is an insignificant house of the Iron Isles.

House Wynch

Ranking Minor
Arms A bloody moon on a field of purple
Lord Waldon Wynch is the head of this house, one of the stronger ones
on Pyke; his seat is in the town of Iron Holt.

coatsi.jpg

coatsi2.jpg
 

Galaahd

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Oh well, not really. I suppose I can delete the posts, should the moderators ask...
 

unmerged(75409)

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Apr 30, 2007
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That should he helpful!!

However I wonder Grell's map (on page 37 of this thread) might not have too many provinces even so. The North has ~55 provinces and each one is to have one, if not more, holding. The north is the best described part of all Westeros, but even so the list only has ~38 houses.

There are only ~20 families known in the riverlands, but 40 provinces. Considering the dense population this should translate into at least 80 holdings. In the other parts of Westeros the ratio of known families to number of holding is even worse.

It might make sense to consolidate provinces, especially in the riverlands, the west and the crown lands, in order to make them more equal in size to those in other parts of the map, while giving them more holdings in exchange.

If the riverlands are consolidated into ~20-30 provinces, they would still be a huge kingdom of their own (Germany in the default CK2 map has, what, 25 provinces???) but the known families would all become a lot more prominent. Basically you could make it so that you recognize a majority of count-level rulers. Manuevering armies would also be more likely to encounter each other. Wouldn't that make sense?

If you have a bazillion provinces but only a limited amount of "recognizable" names, IMO there's going to be a feeling of "Where are the people I know" when you load up a scenario. The dev diaries said that CK2 will "fill in" the non-defined holdings with random characters, which is nice, but do you want those random guys to be a majority of, say, count-level characters in the game??
 

Cabezaestufa

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Maybe it would be better if we started consolidating this information. I have created a spreadsheet in Google Docs with all the provinces currently in the map; feel free to edit it to add any barony you might come up with, but I think you guys will find that there are hardly any town, castle or province from any source that hasn't been already added. Both Grell and I did extensive research to find even the smallest scrap of geographical info on Westeros when making our maps (in Grell's case that probably includes that guide, since I haven't seen anything from it that wasn't already in his mod so far).

Here's the link to the document, it's open for anybody who wants to edit. If any of you has some time, has English as a native language and is good with names, it would be great if you could start adding baronies. An average of 3 settlements per province would be nice, IMO (that is, the County capital and two extra baronies). Obviously, the more important a province is, the more baronies it will contain (so don't go adding 4 towns and 2 castles to Pebble :p). Also, provinces from the Riverlands, and the Reach should have more settlements than Dorne or the North. It would be good too if a town was marked different from a castle, maybe adding (T) for towns, (S) for septs (which should be rare, IMO) and (C) for castles after the name. Also, some way to tell canon from non-canon names would be nice, perhaps adding an asterisk * to the non-canon ones.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Akk5_SIvVbYSdGpPSFRkMDZ5aXVaUkV1cXZkelV2S2c

I'll probably add the owner of each county in the near future.
 
Last edited:

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That should he helpful!!

However I wonder Grell's map (on page 37 of this thread) might not have too many provinces even so. The North has ~55 provinces and each one is to have one, if not more, holding. The north is the best described part of all Westeros, but even so the list only has ~38 houses.
It's not Grell's map, but a mixture of his map and mine.

There are only ~20 families known in the riverlands, but 40 provinces. Considering the dense population this should translate into at least 80 holdings. In the other parts of Westeros the ratio of known families to number of holding is even worse.

It might make sense to consolidate provinces, especially in the riverlands, the west and the crown lands, in order to make them more equal in size to those in other parts of the map, while giving them more holdings in exchange.

If the riverlands are consolidated into ~20-30 provinces, they would still be a huge kingdom of their own (Germany in the default CK2 map has, what, 25 provinces???) but the known families would all become a lot more prominent. Basically you could make it so that you recognize a majority of count-level rulers. Manuevering armies would also be more likely to encounter each other. Wouldn't that make sense?

If you have a bazillion provinces but only a limited amount of "recognizable" names, IMO there's going to be a feeling of "Where are the people I know" when you load up a scenario. The dev diaries said that CK2 will "fill in" the non-defined holdings with random characters, which is nice, but do you want those random guys to be a majority of, say, count-level characters in the game??
Nobody said a family can't own more than one county. I think we should be perfectly able to assign each county from that map to a canon house; Grell did, and his map has more or less the same amount of provinces. By doing that, the important families should be even more prominent, instead of less.

Also, don't forget that Westeros is a big place. More or less, as big as the whole CK2 map (GRRM has said Westeros is about as big as South America). That's why it should be quite appropriate for it to have more or less the same amount of provinces as CK2.
 

Galaahd

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Could you post again the link to Grell's map, for reference?
 

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Grell's map

implied_facepalm.jpg


I'll upload the map again when my POS file server comes back (it's undergoing manteinance again). Or perhaps I'll look for a better one and upload it there, it has been down almost all the time for the last two months or so. The map has changed since the last one, it has more provinces in the Shields and in the Iron Isles.
 

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Never mind, here is the last version:


Provincias.png

Google Docs link: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Akk5_SIvVbYSdGpPSFRkMDZ5aXVaUkV1cXZkelV2S2c

Provinces:

THE WALL AND BEYOND:
1 Eastern Land of Always Winter
2 Western Land of Always Winter
3 Broken Ice
4 Northern Frostfangs
5 The Frozen Shore
6 Thenn
7 Skirling Pass
8 Shivering Forest
9 Ice Bay Shore
10 Central Frostfangs
11 Fist of the First Men
12 Antler Vale
13 Crasters Keep
14 Whitetree
15 The Haunted Forest
16 Hardhome
17 The Gorge
18 Shadow Tower
19 Castle Black
20 Eastwatch
21 Brandons Gift
22 New Gift

THE NORTH
23 Crow's Edge
24 Arrendell
25 Pinesend
26 Shadowmoor
27 Last Hearth
28 Seal Shore
29 Aylesvale
30 Last River
31 Karhold
32 Deepdown
33 Kingshouse
34 Driftwood Hall
35 Bear Island
36 Sea Dragon Point
37 Deepwood
38 Blue Hills
39 Blackgrove
40 King's Grove
41 Wolfswood
42 Stoney Shore
43 The Rills
44 Withered Heath
45 Shatterstone
46 Blazewater Coast
47 Torrhens Square
48 Goldgrass
49 Barrowton
50 Winterfell
51 Acorn Grove
52 Knife's Point
53 Castle Cerwyn
54 Lonely Hills
55 Fenn
56 Weeping Bay
57 Dreadfort
58 Ardonmoor
59 Sheepshead Hills
60 Overton
61 Coalton
62 White Knife
63 Ethering
64 Hornwood
65 Whitford
66 White Harbor
67 Ramsgate
68 Widows Watch
69 Oldcastle
70 Moat Cailin
71 Fever
72 Greywood
73 Churwell
74 Silvereed
75 Greywater Watch
76 Cape Kraken
77 Flints Finger
78 Flint Cliffs

THE RIVERLANDS:
79 Mistlewood
80 Cape of Eagles
81 The Twins
82 Freylands
83 Seagard
84 Erenford
85 Oldstones
86 Stillfen
87 Rushmoor
88 Wycombe
89 Martlet Bay
90 Gravesham
91 Maidstone
92 Blackrush
93 Fairmarket
94 Raventree Hall
95 Stone Hedge
96 Blue Fork
97 Red Fork
98 Green Fork
99 Chiltern
100 Medway
101 Harroways Town
102 Saltpans
103 Kanet
104 Turnbridge
105 Riverrun
106 Branstone
107 Lolliston
108 High Heart
109 Wayfarer's Rest
110 Goodbrook
111 Harrenhal
112 Darry
113 Maidenpool
114 Pinkmaiden
115 Acorn Hall
116 Stoney Sept
117 Willow Wood
118 Atranta
119 Shoreham
120 Esgaroth
121 Isle of Faces

THE VALE:
122 Longsister
123 Sweetsister
124 Littlesister
125 Peeble
126 The Paps
127 Crow's Barrens
128 Scorched Vale
129 Bite Coast
130 Coldwater Burn
131 Wycliffe
132 Newton
133 Moonsgrey
134 Newkeep
135 Snakewood
136 Sunset Keep
137 Strongsong
138 Darkmoor
139 Crown Crag
140 The Eyrie
141 Hearts Home
142 Upcliff
143 Longbow Hall
144 Bloody Gate
145 Grey Glen
146 Ironoaks
147 Old Anchor
148 Redfort
149 Ninestars
150 Crabs Shore
151 Wickenden
152 Ruthermont
153 Gulltown
154 Runestone

THE IRON ISLES:
155 Sealskin Point
156 Hammerhorn
157 Pebbleton
158 Old Wyk
159 Blacktyde
160 Orkmont
161 Volmark
162 Ten Towers
163 Stonetree
164 Saltcliffe
165 Lordsport
166 Pyke

THE WESTERLANDS:
167 Banefort
168 The Crag
169 Glitterdell
170 Wyndhall
171 Fair Isle
172 Feastfires
173 Kayce
174 Maunhill
175 Tarbeck Hall
176 Thurrock
177 Ashemark
178 Golden Tooth
179 Nurn's Deep
180 Oxcross
181 Pendric Hills
182 Sarsfied
183 Goldshire
184 Hornvale
185 Brent Brook
186 Casterly Rock
187 Lannisport
188 Tendring
189 Payne Hall
190 Fang Tower
191 Castamere
192 Greenmont
193 Myatt
194 Lonmont
195 Deep Den
196 Drox Castle
197 Peckledon
198 Hawthorne
199 Silverhill
200 Redbramble
201 Crakehall
202 Falwell
203 Cornfield
204 Greenfield

THE CROWNLANDS:
205 Mosborough
206 Byford
207 Chyttering Brook
208 Rayonet
209 Sow's Horn
210 Byrch Hall
211 Antlers
212 Brindlewood
213 Stokeworth
214 Hayford
215 Rosby
216 Duskendale
217 Hollard Hall
218 Dyre Den
219 Rooks Rest
220 Brownhollow
221 Sweetport Sound
222 Crackclaw Point
223 Claw Isle
224 Driftmark
225 Dragonstone
226 Bramsfort
227 Farring Cross
228 Rollingford
229 Edgerton
230 Kings Landing
231 Dalston Keep
232 Greensward
233 Attadale
234 Woodmere
235 Bywater
236 Wendwater
237 Stonedance
238 Sharp Point

THE REACH:
239 Old Oak
240 Redwater Keep
241 Redding
242 Coldmoat
243 Catswold
244 Dosk
245 Standfast
246 Derring Downs
247 Goldengrove
248 Wythers
249 Smithyton
250 Ivy Hall
251 Alden Keep
252 Harpshire
253 Tumbleton
254 The Ring
255 Leygood Keep
256 Hammerhal
257 Bitterbridge
258 Longtable
259 Roseford
260 Inchfield
261 Holyhall
262 Appleton
263 Grassy Vale
264 Hastwyck
265 Greenshield
266 Greyshield
267 Oakenshield
268 Southshield
269 Westbrook
270 Smallwood
271 Highgarden
272 Cider Hall
273 New Barrel
274 Ashford
275 Manderford
276 Norcross
277 Dunnsbridge
278 Brightwater Keep
279 Darkdell
280 Middlebury
281 Bardshome
282 Yelshire
283 Starpike
284 Horn Hill
285 Fawn Crag
286 Bandallon
287 Honeyholt
288 Sommerset
289 Blackcrown
290 Oldtown
291 Uplands
292 Torrentpeak
293 Three Towers
294 Sunhouse
295 Hunt Hills
296 The Arbor

THE STORMLANDS:
297 Amberly
298 Felwood
299 Langward Hall
300 Bronzegate
301 Hadlow Keep
302 Haystack Hall
303 Parchments
304 Harvest Hall
305 Galemont
306 Grandview
307 Griffins Roost
308 Storms End
309 Tarth
310 Fawnton
311 Nightsong
312 Drakesgrave
313 Poddingfield
314 Gallowsgrey
315 Blackhaven
316 Summerhall
317 Adderdell
318 Crows Nest
319 Lonmouth
320 Stonehelm
321 Lockport
322 Broad Arch
323 Tudbury Hall
324 Rainwood
325 Blue Grove
326 Mistwood
327 Rain House
328 Weeping Tower
329 Rambton
330 Greenstone

DORNE:
331 Blackmont
332 Princes Pass
333 Vultures Roost
334 Wyl
335 Kingsgrave
336 High Hermitage
337 Skyreach
338 Yronwood
339 Starfall
340 The Elbow
341 Sandstone
342 Hellholt
343 Red Dunes
344 Spotswood
345 Scorched Rock
346 Ghaston Grey
347 The Tor
348 The Scourge
349 Vaith
350 Salt Shore
351 Ghost Hill
352 Nymerwell
353 Godsgrace
354 Plankytown
355 Lemonwood
356 Sunspear
357 Stepstones

I still need to change a few things beyond the wall (mostly, to fix the things Hroppa mentioned). Also, I'd still like to hear more opinions about removing some provinces in the Riverlands before doing so. I wouldn't like to remove provinces and then have somebody say "I liked it better when it had more provinces!" :p
 
Last edited:

Nick B II

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If the riverlands are consolidated into ~20-30 provinces, they would still be a huge kingdom of their own (Germany in the default CK2 map has, what, 25 provinces???) but the known families would all become a lot more prominent. Basically you could make it so that you recognize a majority of count-level rulers. Manuevering armies would also be more likely to encounter each other. Wouldn't that make sense?
For the record Germany is 73 provinces in CK1. France is 57, but England is only 30.

So a 55-province North is at best on the high side.

OTOH in CK2 counting provinces to determine kingdom strength is silly. What matters are holdings. And if you make most of the North like Finland, with only one holding in a province, and a two-holding provincial maximum, you could easily come up with an 65-holding Kingdom of the North, which is about right.

As for finding houses to fill all these slots, the simple fact is that if you want everyone who appears in the books to be playable you have to make a lot of sub-Baron-tier characters (ie: the Cleganes, Littlefinger) Count-tier, which means title-inflation for everybody else, which means that places without sufficient sub-Baron-tier Houses to make into Counts will be problematic.

In this case we're probably fine if we simply give a bunch of these Houses multiple Counties, and make up a few Baron-tier houses to fill out the map.

Nick
 

Andrzej I

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While I love the Blood of Dragons MUSH, it's far from a comprehensive list and it takes place (currently) in 163 AL, which is a good hundred years or so before the events of the book series.

And Galaahd did much of what I was going to do, though I was just going to name the houses and where they were. Bravo, ser :p
 

unmerged(75409)

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For the record Germany is 73 provinces in CK1. France is 57, but England is only 30.

So a 55-province North is at best on the high side.

OTOH in CK2 counting provinces to determine kingdom strength is silly. What matters are holdings. And if you make most of the North like Finland, with only one holding in a province, and a two-holding provincial maximum, you could easily come up with an 65-holding Kingdom of the North, which is about right.

As for finding houses to fill all these slots, the simple fact is that if you want everyone who appears in the books to be playable you have to make a lot of sub-Baron-tier characters (ie: the Cleganes, Littlefinger) Count-tier, which means title-inflation for everybody else, which means that places without sufficient sub-Baron-tier Houses to make into Counts will be problematic.

In this case we're probably fine if we simply give a bunch of these Houses multiple Counties, and make up a few Baron-tier houses to fill out the map.

Nick
I know province count is not a measure of strength :) But it's a measure of how spread out a kingdom is. As in, how long does it take to suppress a rebel lord, how long does an invading army need to reach the seat of a kingdom's power, and so on.

When I mentioned that I would like to see the all of the duke-level and most of the count-level rulers be recognizable characters from the book, I did not mean I want to see Baelishs and Cleganes jumped up to counts. Not at all. My point was that it is problematic to have so many provinces, because the "count-tier-worthy" characters we DO HAVE are so few! To accurately portray the books, Cleganes would be at best barons, and some count would be needed to rule over them. Darrys would be barons and need a count over them. Where do you hope to find all these counts?

I'd loathe to see half the Westerlands counties be held by random dudes whose names I never heard of... I'd love it to look more like this:

westeros-small.jpg
 

unmerged(75409)

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It's not Grell's map, but a mixture of his map and mine.
Oops, sorry!

Nobody said a family can't own more than one county. I think we should be perfectly able to assign each county from that map to a canon house; Grell did, and his map has more or less the same amount of provinces. By doing that, the important families should be even more prominent, instead of less.

Also, don't forget that Westeros is a big place. More or less, as big as the whole CK2 map (GRRM has said Westeros is about as big as South America). That's why it should be quite appropriate for it to have more or less the same amount of provinces as CK2.
GRRM did say that, but I never really believed it. He has Robert and his cumbersome entourage travel from KL to Winterfell in ~50 days which is very fast compared to, say, the travel times you see in the 1st crusade or other medieval histories where people cover a lot of distance by foot and horse. For example the frankish crusaders took ~4 months merely for the trip from Germany to Constantinople. If you imagine those kind of people walking across a continent the size of South America, I have a hard time seeing them cross half that continent in just 50 days.
 

Cabezaestufa

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GRRM did say that, but I never really believed it. He has Robert and his cumbersome entourage travel from KL to Winterfell in ~50 days which is very fast compared to, say, the travel times you see in the 1st crusade or other medieval histories where people cover a lot of distance by foot and horse. For example the frankish crusaders took ~4 months merely for the trip from Germany to Constantinople. If you imagine those kind of people walking across a continent the size of South America, I have a hard time seeing them cross half that continent in just 50 days.
Well, it doesn't get much more canon than the author saying so himself. If 50 days is really too short (I confess I'm not really an expert on medieval travel times), I guess he just screwed up when giving a random number of days (we can probably find out many more inaccuracies if we start digging, and the same probably goes for almost every fantasy story...). But is it really so far fetched to have a smallish entourage travelling through friendly territory, with guaranteed lodgings and supplies for the whole trip, using a very important and (probably) well mantained road all of the way and (not sure, but I think) with everybody going by horse or in a cart, to be much faster than a whole army (travelling through at best neutral territory, having to camp, keep cohesion, forage for food and supplies all of the time, foot infantry slowing everybody down...)?

Either way, the South America thing looks like it fits. Keep in mind that Westeros goes from the ice caps to somewhere not too far from the tropics. Unless the planet it's on is much smaller than the Earth (doesn't look likely; Essos seems to be huge) or Westeros should be more or less that size.

I know province count is not a measure of strength :) But it's a measure of how spread out a kingdom is. As in, how long does it take to suppress a rebel lord, how long does an invading army need to reach the seat of a kingdom's power, and so on.

When I mentioned that I would like to see the all of the duke-level and most of the count-level rulers be recognizable characters from the book, I did not mean I want to see Baelishs and Cleganes jumped up to counts. Not at all. My point was that it is problematic to have so many provinces, because the "count-tier-worthy" characters we DO HAVE are so few! To accurately portray the books, Cleganes would be at best barons, and some count would be needed to rule over them. Darrys would be barons and need a count over them. Where do you hope to find all these counts?
Apart from the size issue, if we do what you say (which would amount to cutting the number of provinces in half) I think gameplay would suffer. Remember, this is supposed to be a full conversion, intended to replace the whole vanilla game and which should be playable for in-game centuries. If we don't give players a big enough "battlefield", things would get boring. You might end up easily becoming the ruler of the world in about 100 years. It would be too small in scope, IMO.

Have you played Grell's mod? If so, what was your opinion on it? It was about the same scale.
 
Last edited:

Hroppa

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Whether or not we're going to remove/merge provinces in the Riverlands, Raventree Hall should be the capital holding's name in the province Blackwood Vale, rather than the province name. (I know this is the most minor of minor points, seeing as we can change the names ourselves in game...)
 

knuckey

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I can start naming some baronies in The Reach if you like? I feel in a creative mood :D One question for large city counties like Oldtown, should that have baronies named after landmarks in the city, e.g. The Citadel, Hightower and Starry Sept?
 

yourworstnightm

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I can start naming some baronies in The Reach if you like? I feel in a creative mood :D One question for large city counties like Oldtown, should that have baronies named after landmarks in the city, e.g. The Citadel, Hightower and Starry Sept?
We'd probably have to do something like that for King's Landing anyway, so why not for Oldtown too.
 

Sir Garnet

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Amazing work being done here. Bravo.

My terrestrial geographical impression of Westeros is something like starting with a wide version of France (but not France + Germany), tacking pieces of Spain and then North Africa on going south, squashing together the British Isles to the north with a sparse population, and then topping it off with Scandinavia and a chunk of northern Siberia in winter. All relatively less densely populated than Europe.

Over 350 provinces seems a lot for the overall feel of Westeros, at least for one of the hoi polloi such as myself. Too many territoies and too many rulers might add too much clutter around the named characters, and also add too many strategic points. (There is such a thing as too large a supporting cast!) Not to mention the desirability of reducing processing time and streamlining the development burden.

200 provinces should be more than enough, leaving plenty for Essos. In truth, Westeros could probably be done quite well with 100 or so provinces, which would still be much more detailed than people would reasonably expect in a strategy game focused on the named characters and noble houses of Westeros.

Of course I may be all wet on this.

It's a magnificent effort in any case.