Game of Thrones mod

[Orinsul]

Arent the Sparrows a heresy? The books kind of paint them as the frairs and the ablergesians rolled into one. So you could use whatever events, heresy mechanics and etc CK2 uses for them for the Sparrows.
id say try and use as many of the events and mechanics as you can get to fit rather than pale the game by missing things out. I mean theres no examples of lots of things in the books, but that doesnt mean they couldnt happen with different conditions, so the antipope mechanic can be for antiseptons as who knows what situations might pop up after a century of two of playing the mod.

And i would say that the Seven would always use the Catholic mechanics not the Orthodox mechanics, theyre not under secular control, its just for the few first books the High Septon, pycelle? been a while since i read it so im not sure on the names, was just corrupt himself, he was a puppet of the Iron Throne, not because he was a vassal of it [orthodox mechanics] but because he was a corrupt man personally, but its very much Catholic mechanics, just Catholic mechanics with a corrupt and weak ruler who is in the pocket of the ruling family.

 

[Galle]

The Sparrows aren't really advocating a different theology from the Faith. If they're a heresy, they're a political one. Still, the heresy mechanics would probably work for them.

 

[Jaol]

Allowing the Faith of the Seven to Catholicize itself under book-like conditions should be possible.

BTW, has anybody thought about how we'd simulate winter vs. summer?

If I understand it correctly, the only difference between the Orthodox and the Catholics is whether the head of the religion is a vassal or not. So to change them over, we'd just need the High Septon to become independent. So I guess we could use the heresy mechanics to represent the sparrows, with an event/decision where if the Sparrows get strong enough, the Iron Throne can raise the religious authority of the Seven (and perhaps convert the heretics) in exchange for making the High Septon independent.

Re. the seasons, I'd been thinking that province modifiers would probably be the best way. It's not very elegant, but I can't think of anything else.

 

[yourworstnightm]

Well, the Septs had no armed force before Cersei was dumb enough to allow them to arm. How this can be modeled, I don't know.

 

[the_hdk]

Well, the Septs had no armed force before Cersei was dumb enough to allow them to arm. How this can be modeled, I don't know.

actually IIRC they did ages before

 

[yourworstnightm]

actually IIRC they did ages before

Yes but they were not armed at the beginning of Robert's rebellion or the War of the 5 Kings, so they really shouldn't be armed when the game start.

 

[Galle]

Yes but they were not armed at the beginning of Robert's rebellion or the War of the 5 Kings, so they really shouldn't be armed when the game start.

Let's go over the details here:

The Faith of the Seven used to be pretty bloodthirsty and fundamentalist. When they first conquered the Seven Kingdoms (the North excepted) their warriors would carve seven-pointed stars on their chests and burn down the godswoods. It seems like the Andal Invasion was religiously charged in some way.

By the time of Aegon's Conquest, there were two holy orders - the Warrior's Sons (for the nobility) and the Poor Fellows (for the smallfolk), together called the Faith Militant or the Swords and Stars. Given that between them these would form a functional holy order, I'd say that if we're going to include them, we should smash them together as one holy order called the Faith Militant.

After Aegon's death, the Faith Militant rose up and tried to overthrow the Targaryens. Maegor fought them bitterly, both during his time as Aenys's Hand and during his own reign. After Maegor's death, Jaeherys made peace with the Faith on the grounds that the Faith Militant be disbanded. While the details are unclear, this whole uprising seems to have essentially been a power struggle between Westeros's old central power, the Faith, and its new one, the Iron Throne. So in CK terms the order of events would be:

Pre-Conquest: The Faith of the Seven is more Catholic, with the High Septon as an essentially independent ruler based in Oldtown and an active holy order.
Aegon: The Faith aligns itself with the Targaryens after they march into Oldtown, but doesn't actually give up its power or privileges.
Aenys, Maegor: The Faith fights a war against the Iron Throne over religious authority.
Jaeherys: The Faith loses the war and as a result, loses authority in such a way that it becomes the Iron Throne's de facto vassal and has to disband its holy order (somehow)

I don't think it'd be too much trouble to switch the holy orders on and off, there's probably triggers for it somehow. The major consideration is how we can get the AI to deal with it in an intelligent way.

 

[Nick B II]

If I understand it correctly, the only difference between the Orthodox and the Catholics is whether the head of the religion is a vassal or not. So to change them over, we'd just need the High Septon to become independent. So I guess we could use the heresy mechanics to represent the sparrows, with an event/decision where if the Sparrows get strong enough, the Iron Throne can raise the religious authority of the Seven (and perhaps convert the heretics) in exchange for making the High Septon independent.

I don't know if there's a difference in how the religions are defined, but there's definitely major differences between the Orthodox and Catholic faiths that have nothing to do with the vassal-status of their rulers: Catholics get Holy Orders and Crusades. I don't think it's particularly controversial to say that a) post-Targaryans the Faith of the Sevens have neither, and b) at this point they have Holy Orders and could call a Crusade if they really wanted.

Perhaps we could link those possibilities to the High Septon not being a vassal, and then simulate Cersai's error by creating an event making the High Septon independent.

Re. the seasons, I'd been thinking that province modifiers would probably be the best way. It's not very elegant, but I can't think of anything else.

If we can set flags in the game-files an event to change seasons with an MTTH of about 10 years would be possible. Then every flavor event we make could have it's MTTH changed based on which season it was.

The advantage over the province-trait system is you couldn't have it summer in King's Landing and Winter at Winterfell for years. The disadvantage is that it would instantly change from one to the other, when Winterfell should probably get the trait a month or so before King's Landing does.

Nick

 

[unmerged(75409)]

aaaaargh

you guys just gave away spoilers... I only read the first two books so far :ninja:

 

[the_hdk]

if anything the Rhallor religion fits the crusading thing in books-time

but the Andals had and have later Holy Orders so they fit Catholics too. and they have a kind of a Pope (High Septon) that other religions dont have.

 

[Jaol]

I don't know if there's a difference in how the religions are defined, but there's definitely major differences between the Orthodox and Catholic faiths that have nothing to do with the vassal-status of their rulers: Catholics get Holy Orders and Crusades.

I think the ability to call crusades actually is tied to the independence of the head of the religion. In one of the dev diaries, it sounded like the Orthodox would be able to call crusades if the Patriarch ever became independent. Regarding holy orders, I'm sure we can give them to any religion, and we can definitely turn them on by event, so we could have events that activate Holy Orders at the same time as making the High Septon independent. I'm not sure if we can turn them off by event, though.

Re. the seasons, I was thinking we'd have a global event ("White Raven") that starts the change in seasons, and this would then trigger province events that either set or remove a province modifier that would represent the effects of the season (for example, "winter" might raise attrition, lower tax, etc.). We can use the new spawn event in the future at days x-y from now feature to make it so that these province events appear in the north sooner than in the south for winter, and vice versa for summer.

 

[Nick B II]

aaaaargh

you guys just gave away spoilers... I only read the first two books so far :ninja:

Sorry about that. But if we're gonna plan religion in this mod there really isn't a way to do it without mentioning shit that happened in the last few books.

Mostly because religion got a lot more important in the last few books.

if anything the Rhallor religion fits the crusading thing in books-time

In the general sense of the term, yes. But they don't really take a Duchy-sized region of the world, and declare that all Rhallors have a duty to conquer it. Stannis uses a straight-up Succession CB, and Melisendre hasn't even hinted that she wants him to go beyond that.

The Faith of the Seven might do something that we could use the actual Crusade game mechanic for: destroying various holy sites of the Old Gods. But we're not gonna find that out until the next book comes out.

Nick

 

[Galle]

The Faith of the Seven might do something that we could use the actual Crusade game mechanic for: destroying various holy sites of the Old Gods. But we're not gonna find that out until the next book comes out.

Nick

The Faith did do that, dring the Andal Invasion. Whether or not the new Faith Militant will canonically, there's enough precedent for it to be mechanic-worthy. After all, the game won't reenact the books anyway.

Also, not the best thread to be hanging around in if you haven't read up at least AFFC (I still have finished DWD and so far this thread hasn't spoiled me, so that's probably safe)

 

[the_hdk]

well there is an official video talking about Religion in Westeros, here.

 

[Cabezaestufa]

Merry Christmas, guys (or whatever related Winter solstice celebration they have in Westeros). I thought I'd bring you a late Christmas present...

Provinces:

THE WALL AND BEYOND:

Spoiler

1 Eastern Land of Always Winter
2 Western Land of Always Winter
3 Broken Ice
4 Northern Frostfangs
5 The Frozen Shore
6 Thenn
7 Skirling Pass
8 Shivering Forest
9 Ice Bay Shore
10 Central Frostfangs
11 Fist of the First Men
12 Antler Vale
13 Crasters Keep
14 Whitetree
15 The Haunted Forest
16 Hardhome
17 The Gorge
18 Shadow Tower
19 Castle Black
20 Eastwatch
21 Brandons Gift
22 New Gift

THE NORTH

Spoiler

23 Crow's Edge
24 Arrendell
25 Pinesend
26 Shadowmoor
27 Last Hearth
28 Seal Shore
29 Aylesvale
30 Last River
31 Karhold
32 Deepdown
33 Kingshouse
34 Driftwood Hall
35 Bear Island
36 Sea Dragon Point
37 Deepwood
38 Blue Hills
39 Blackgrove
40 King's Grove
41 Wolfswood
42 Stoney Shore
43 The Rills
44 Withered Heath
45 Shatterstone
46 Blazewater Coast
47 Torrhens Square
48 Goldgrass
49 Barrowton
50 Winterfell
51 Acorn Grove
52 Knife's Point
53 Castle Cerwyn
54 Lonely Hills
55 Fenn
56 Weeping Bay
57 Dreadfort
58 Ardonmoor
59 Sheepshead Hills
60 Overton
61 Coalton
62 White Knife
63 Ethering
64 Hornwood
65 Whitford
66 White Harbor
67 Ramsgate
68 Widows Watch
69 Oldcastle
70 Moat Cailin
71 Fever
72 Greywood
73 Churwell
74 Silvereed
75 Greywater Watch
76 Cape Kraken
77 Flints Finger
78 Flint Cliffs

THE RIVERLANDS:

Spoiler

79 Mistlewood
80 Cape of Eagles
81 The Twins
82 Freylands
83 Seagard
84 Erenford
85 Oldstones
86 Stillfen
87 Rushmoor
88 Wycombe
89 Martlet Bay
90 Gravesham
91 Maidstone
92 Blackrush
93 Fairmarket
94 Raventree Hall
95 Stone Hedge
96 Blue Fork
97 Red Fork
98 Green Fork
99 Chiltern
100 Medway
101 Harroways Town
102 Saltpans
103 Kanet
104 Turnbridge
105 Riverrun
106 Branstone
107 Moreland
108 High Heart
109 Wayfarer's Rest
110 Goodbrook
111 Harrenhal
112 Darry
113 Maidenpool
114 Pinkmaiden
115 Acorn Hall
116 Stoney Sept
117 Willow Wood
118 Atranta
119 Shoreham
120 Esgaroth
121 Isle of Faces

THE VALE:

Spoiler

122 Longsister
123 Sweetsister
124 Littlesister
125 Peeble
126 The Paps
127 Crow's Barrens
128 Scorched Vale
129 Bite Coast
130 Coldwater Burn
131 Wycliffe
132 Newton
133 Moonsgrey
134 Newkeep
135 Snakewood
136 Sunset Keep
137 Strongsong
138 Darkmoor
139 Crown Crag
140 The Eyrie
141 Hearts Home
142 Upcliff
143 Longbow Hall
144 Bloody Gate
145 Grey Glen
146 Ironoaks
147 Old Anchor
148 Redfort
149 Ninestars
150 Crabs Shore
151 Wickenden
152 Ruthermont
153 Gulltown
154 Runestone

THE IRON ISLES:

Spoiler

155 Great Wyk
156 Old Wyk
157 Blacktyde
158 Orkmont
159 Harlaw
160 Saltcliffe
161 Pyke

THE WESTERLANDS:

Spoiler

162 Banefort
163 The Crag
164 Glitterdell
165 Wyndhall
166 Fair Isle
167 Feastfires
168 Kayce
169 Maunhill
170 Tarbeck Hall
171 Thurrock
172 Ashemark
173 Golden Tooth
174 Nurn's Deep
175 Oxcross
176 Pendric Hills
177 Sarsfied
178 Goldshire
179 Hornvale
180 Brent Brook
181 Casterly Rock
182 Lannisport
183 Tendring
184 Payne Hall
185 Castle Clegane
186 Castamere
187 Greenmont
188 Myatt
189 Lonmont
190 Deep Den
191 Drox Castle
192 Peckledon
193 Hawthorne
194 Silverhill
195 Fang Tower
196 Crakehall
197 Falwell
198 Cornfield
199 Greenfield

THE CROWNLANDS:

Spoiler

200 Mosborough
201 Byford
202 Chyttering Brook
203 Rayonet
204 Sow's Horn
205 Hayford
206 Antlers
207 Brindlewood
208 Stokeworth
209 Byrch Hall
210 Rosby
211 Duskendale
212 Hollard Hall
213 Dyre Den
214 Rooks Rest
215 Brownhollow
216 Sweetport Sound
217 Crackclaw Point
218 Claw Isle
219 Driftmark
220 Dragonstone
221 Bramsfort
222 Farring Cross
223 Rollingford
224 Edgerton
225 Kings Landing
226 Dalston Keep
227 Greensward
228 Attadale
229 Woodmere
230 Bywater
231 Wendwater
232 Stonedance
233 Sharp Point

THE REACH:

Spoiler

234 Old Oak
235 Redwater Keep
236 Redding
237 Coldmoat
238 Catswold
239 Dosk
240 Standfast
241 Derring Downs
242 Goldengrove
243 Wythers
244 Smithyton
245 Ivy Hall
246 Alden Keep
247 Sunflower Hall
248 Tumbleton
249 The Ring
250 Leygood Keep
251 Hammerhal
252 Bitterbridge
253 Longtable
254 Roseford
255 Inchfield
256 Holyhall
257 Appleton
258 Grassy Vale
259 Hastwyck
260 Shield Islands
261 Westbrook
262 Smallwood
263 Highgarden
264 Cider Hall
265 New Barrel
266 Ashford
267 Manderford
268 Norcross
269 Dunnsbridge
270 Brightwater Keep
271 Darkdell
272 Middlebury
273 Bardshome
274 Yelshire
275 Starpike
276 Horn Hill
277 Fawn Crag
278 Bandallon
279 Honeyholt
280 Sommerset
281 Blackcrown
282 Oldtown
283 Uplands
284 Torrentpeak
285 Three Towers
286 Sun House
287 Hunt Hills
288 The Arbor

THE STORMLANDS:

Spoiler

289 Amberly
290 Felwood
291 Langward Hall
292 Bronzegate
293 Hadlow Keep
294 Haystack Hall
295 Parchments
296 Harvest Hall
297 Galemont
298 Grandview
299 Griffins Roost
300 Storms End
301 Tarth
302 Fawnton
303 Nightsong
304 Drakesgrave
305 Poddingfield
306 Gallowsgrey
307 Blackhaven
308 Summerhall
309 Adderdell
310 Crows Nest
311 Lonmouth
312 Stonehelm
313 Lockport
314 Broad Arch
315 Tudbury Hall
316 Rainwood
317 Blue Grove
318 Mistwood
319 Rain House
320 Weeping Tower
321 Rambton
322 Greenstone

DORNE:

Spoiler

323 Blackmont
324 Princes Pass
325 Vultures Roost
326 Wyl
327 Kingsgrave
328 High Hermitage
329 Skyreach
330 Yronwood
331 Starfall
332 The Elbow
333 Sandstone
334 Hellholt
335 Red Dunes
336 Spotswood
337 Scorched Rock
338 Ghaston Grey
339 The Tor
340 The Scourge
341 Vaith
342 Salt Shore
343 Ghost Hill
344 Nymerwell
345 Godsgrace
346 Plankytown
347 Lemonweed
348 Sunspear
349 Stepstones

This is the first version of my complete map, after adding a load of provinces from Grell's mod (hey Grell, I hope you don't mind me plagiarizing your map; it's been really useful for filling most of the blanks in the official maps, thanks!). As of now, it works perfectly on the latest version of Sengoku. I'll keep tinkering with it to fix some visual details to try to have it as finished as possible when CK2 comes out. Please let me know what you guys think, which changes would you make, etc. Some possibly controversial decisions:

- I only made each of the Iron Isles into a single province. I always saw the Iron Isles as far weaker than any "kingdom" in Westeros when talking about money or manpower, their great advantage being their naval power and their unique culture, which should be represented using special mechanics. For example, I think I saw a building called "warrior culture" in one of the Let's Play videos that pagans had, that doubled their levies. This would be nice for the Ironmen, and we could add another special building that also gives them more numerous and cheaper ships. Finally, all these small Ironmen houses from the books should work fine as baronies.

- I grouped the Shield Islands into a single province. It should have four baronies, one for each island. I saw each of these islands as too small and poor to give them their own province.

- There are still a few dodgy names left because I fail at English and have no creativity whatsoever, mostly in places where I couldn't plagiarize names from Grell's mod (for example: Freylands, The Elbow...). If you find a name particularly grating and can think of a better one, please post it.

I'm sure you guys will find more problems with it. Just fire away, the moment to fix them is now, not when we have already started working using a map as a base

 

[Nick B II]

Beautiful man.

Best Christmas present ever.

Nick

 

[rashtrakut]

Wow :blink: :blink: :blink:

I agree with you the Iron Isles should be weaker than everybody else. IMO the Riverlands should also be slightly weaker since they along with the Isles were part of one kingdom before Aegon's landing and were split off after that.

What is the plan to deal with Daenerys in the game, not that we have a map of Essos it should be possible to mod in a bunch of Venice type city states with her as queen of Mereen with possible doomstacks to represent her dragons

 

[Nick B II]

Wow :blink: :blink: :blink:

I agree with you the Iron Isles should be weaker than everybody else. IMO the Riverlands should also be slightly weaker since they along with the Isles were part of one kingdom before Aegon's landing and were split off after that.

What is the plan to deal with Daenerys in the game, not that we have a map of Essos it should be possible to mod in a bunch of Venice type city states with her as queen of Mereen with possible doomstacks to represent her dragons

The plan is to leave her for the next version.

The city-states of the Essos are really hard to simulate with Medieval mechanics, and we're gonna have an awful lot of data entry to do if we want the main scenarios (ie: Robert's rebellion, and the books themselves) to have the right people in them. We've also got thorny questions to resolve in the Westeros themselves regarding religion.

The trouble with doomstacks is that they cost money, and they require transport. Which means we also have to give Dany a bunch of boats and an unlimited treasury...

My suggestion for dragons was a mix of traits and events. Danny would have the trait-dragon-holder. When her armies besiege a castle she gets an event offering to instant-end the siege, while murdering her entire enemy's Court. If she says yes she gets the trait dragon-fryer. Anyone fighting a dragon-fryer gets events where they can submit to the Dany, or risk being besieged and fried.

Further development of the idea was halted, largely because people were more interested in arguing whether it should be tried at all rather then arguing over it's merits.

Nick

 

[Andrzej I]

Amazing job. However, I'm in disagreement about the groupings. Condensing the Shield Islands is not a terrible idea, but I think that if we're grouping them together, we might as well group much more as well. After all, I'm positive that the Shield Islands are more economically valuable than much of the lands beyond the Wall. They do, after all, compose much of the Reach's naval forces (ignoring the Arbor's), which likely double as its merchant marine. Speaking of the lands Beyond the Wall, they have twenty-two counties, which mean a minimum of twenty-two holdings. The Iron Islands have seven counties. While the Iron Islands should be weak, I think it's a bit much to make them that weak. They did, after all, manage to conquer and rule the Riverlands up until Aegon's landing. This said, I'd split the Shield Islands back into four counties, and maybe split up some of the larger Iron Islands to buff them a little. They should still be the weakest of the seven kingdoms, but they should be able to contend, at least, with a weakened kingdom. At the moment, I'm not sure they could even do that. Either that or some of the provinces should be grouped to bring those two places up in economic/military might. To emphasize: again, amazing job even so. Bravo, ser.

Edit: re Dragons: We could also make Dragons a battle tactic, boosting an army's offense by some absurd amount to deal bunches and bunches of casualties. And then add in a couple siege events too. The events about surrendering to someone with dragons is not amiss either.

Edit2: I'd avoid "Freylands" as a name, if only because it wouldn't make too much sense if the Freys ended up losing the Freylands. Could you add an asterisk to all of the non-canon names? It'd help

 

[c92nichj]

Great job.
However I also believe that the riverlands can be combined a little bit so they have fewer provinces.