Game of Thrones mod

[Grell74]

You guys insisting on on book "reality" trumping logical/plausible/enjoyable gameplay are going to keep floundering in circles and never get the mod made (even if you had CK2 infront of you now). Its a book, its not reality. Martin is not an historian or Oxford professor of English. He hasnt created entire languages and a legendarium like depth for his world. 'Warden' is the name of a title he read somewhere and thought sounded cool, just like "King of Salt and Rock" and the other pseudo medeivalisms like nuncle, neeps, nonces and whatever the hell else he plucks from the Victorian era or Shakespeare. "Warden" and other parts of Martin's feudal system dont bear such close scrutiny as to be translatable into a computer game.

Why? One of the great moans about Grell's mod (and the reason i never played it past the opening year) was that it was really unrealistic because Lords Paramount had to be King-tier because of the absence of barons. With the addition of two tiers, we can have the Iron Throne as an Emperor title holding the King in the North etc. with the Great Houses as vassals. How is independence going to work in your system? In that system the Starks could usurp the King in the North and go to war with the Iron Throne to claim it. In yours they'll have to slowly lose loyalty and the rebellions will probably quite spaced out, nothing like the dramtic climax in Game of Thrones and probably quite boring for the player.

Also, prestige. Shouldn't a Robb who swore fealty to Renly or Stannis (an Emperor-level title) but nominally remained a King be above the other Great Houses? But not only that, in terms of prestige gain, or anything else apart from scutage, an independent King of the Reach is no different to King of the Reach, vassal to the Iron Throne. In my system you get more prestige, you get to rule your kingdom on your whims alone and you get to be superior in rank to all the other Great Houses.

In yours, you get to not pay scutage.

But there's a more general problem affecting both my system and yours (I've no idea what Nick's or anyone else's is) of how we're going to get the Tyrells and Tullys to swear loyalty to Renly and Robb. In CK1 just because you had a claim on a King title and were fighting to uphold it didn't make you a King. If this changes in CK2 mine will be fine but you'll still be in trouble as the Tullys would be kings anyway and would have no reason to swear loyalty to another king.

 

[Grell74]

Why does having more playable factions make it immediately more fun? Not only that, a mod where thing don't happen according to the storyline not because the game can't deal with that but because that will aparrently make it more fun might well run into legal trouble, as that could be construed as fanfiction (I think this was raised with Westeros Total War).

Thanks WelshDude Now I remember why I avoided entering this debate. Have fun guys

 

[the_hdk]

Thanks WelshDude Now I remember why I avoided entering this debate. Have fun guys

sadly I see it now. Grell I hope you wont mind we take some of the info from your mod? We'll include you in one of teh makers (or stuff based on)

 

[Lys91]

I seem to recall Ned mentioning something about holding 2 Warden positions giving the Lannisters half of the Kingdoms army, although Im not really sure how that makes sense, as the Arryn bannermen wouldnt like serving Jaime.

I think warden of xxx was a military title and grant the right to lead and raise army in the name of the iron throne. However, it does not come with any land as far as I remember. However as the title was given to the Houses already having the most military control it was mostly honorific (House Stark warden of the north or not would still control most northern forces).

The part about two Lannisters having warden title is related to the fact that house Arryn was weak and it was likely that the Lords will follow the Lannister guy rather than the sicken kid, therefore expending Lannister house power.

 

[Grell74]

sadly I see it now. Grell I hope you wont mind we take some of the info from your mod? We'll include you in one of teh makers (or stuff based on)

Sure use whatever you like. Ill be working on my own fantasy based mod so should be able to help you out with portraits, events and some other things which might be useable in Westeros.

 

[Nick B II]

the fact is you can't play as a Baron. how many times does one have to repeat that?

and I want as much as possible houses playable not only 15-20

You're exaggerating the point.

There are dozens of Houses mentioned in the books. The Iron Islands alone have a couple dozen. The Reach has 71:
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Category:Houses_from_the_Reach

We make 2/3 of those reach House Baron-level and we still have 25 playable Houses from the Reach. Scenario-wide we're probably talking about 200 playable Houses. Other regions will be more problematic (GRRM has mentioned 19 Dornish Houses, for example).

Nick

 

[Nick B II]

But there's a more general problem affecting both my system and yours (I've no idea what Nick's or anyone else's is) of how we're going to get the Tyrells and Tullys to swear loyalty to Renly and Robb. In CK1 just because you had a claim on a King title and were fighting to uphold it didn't make you a King. If this changes in CK2 mine will be fine but you'll still be in trouble as the Tullys would be kings anyway and would have no reason to swear loyalty to another king.

This should be fine. CK2 has a new Civil War system whereby the pretender gets to act like a King until the war is over.

So an anti-King will get his desmene bonus, the ability to have Duke-level vassals, etc. until he gets beaten or wins

Nick

 

[Ruwaard]

I think warden of xxx was a military title and grant the right to lead and raise army in the name of the iron throne. However, it does not come with any land as far as I remember. However as the title was given to the Houses already having the most military control it was mostly honorific (House Stark warden of the north or not would still control most northern forces).

The part about two Lannisters having warden title is related to the fact that house Arryn was weak and it was likely that the Lords will follow the Lannister guy rather than the sicken kid, therefore expending Lannister house power.

Well that might also have been because of Robert Arryn's youth, as temporarily replacement, because denying him that position as an adult is much more problematic and even the Iron Throne prefers a situation were no great house has more than one warden position.

 

[Lys91]

Well that might also have been because of Robert Arryn's youth, as temporarily replacement, because denying him that position as an adult is much more problematic and even the Iron Throne prefers a situation were no great house has more than one warden position.

Indeed it was what I was trying to express with my poor English skills ^^.

 

[berke]

Plots will really make this interesting... imagine the possibilities!!!

 

[Galle]

Dagda the Ruler of the North is heraldic at the start of teh books and our scenario. also they couldn't unsurp a Stark without the civil War . the Starks ruled the north for hundreds of years. Same with Lannisters in teh West.

what you are suggesting is again out of mechanics. please keep in mind the freaking game mechanics.

I propose this. everyone who agrees with me on the following 5 tier system and want to help out with a Westeros mod let me know either here or pm or otherwise. I'll note your name and pm you when the game is out to start a team.
Im done discussing it. everyone else make your own team and mod, I guess.

Example:
Tier 5 - King of the Iron Throne of the House Baratheon (Emperor)
Tier 4 - Great House Tyrell (King)
Tier 3 - Noble House Hightower of Oldtown (Duke)
Tier 2 - Lord of Blackcrown of House Bulwer (Count)
Tier 1 - Knightly House Osgrey (Baron)

I think this is the best system we're going to get.

What would really be ideal is if the game gave us the ability to move titles around and change tags by event - in that case, we could just make an empire-tier "king" title for each of the Seven Kingdoms along with the king-tier "lord paramount" title, have Robert hold all the Seven Kingdoms imperial titles in personal union at the beginning of the game, and add a decision that allows you to claim the Iron Throne if you control a certain percentage of Westeros and King's Landing.

 

[Dagda]

Dagda the Ruler of the North is heraldic at the start of teh books and our scenario. also they couldn't unsurp a Stark without the civil War . the Starks ruled the north for hundreds of years. Same with Lannisters in teh West.

Which is what I originally said. I'm glad we agree.

I just took issue with your notion of Warden being a Kingdom like tier when it was nothing of the sort in the book. The Seven Kingdoms , etc. Obviously there are Kingdoms, but are completely different from the Warden thing.

 

[Orinsul]

Which is what I originally said. I'm glad we agree.

I just took issue with your notion of Warden being a Kingdom like tier when it was nothing of the sort in the book. The Seven Kingdoms , etc. Obviously there are Kingdoms, but are completely different from the Warden thing.

only in game terms, the kingdoms would be game-term-empires no? Just cause its called King doesnt mean its fulfills the role of the mechanic called King in game, thats all just localisation.
The declaration of a King is setting him as equal in authority with the Iron Throne, not as one step below it.

 

[WelshDude]

only in game terms, the kingdoms would be game-term-empires no? Just cause its called King doesnt mean its fulfills the role of the mechanic called King in game, thats all just localisation.
The declaration of a King is setting him as equal in authority with the Iron Throne, not as one step below it.

There might well have been a Kingdom in the North that paid tribute to the Iron Throne in return for it's independence. That would be impossible under the mechanics you're proposing.

 

[the_hdk]

There might well have been a Kingdom in the North that paid tribute to the Iron Throne in return for it's independence. That would be impossible under the mechanics you're proposing.

so far as we know the Starks ware Kings when Targaryens arrived. Than when other Kingdoms got conquered the Starks bend their knee (and thus ware no Kings anymore)

so no thats not possible.

 

[WelshDude]

so far as we know the Starks ware Kings when Targaryens arrived. Than when other Kingdoms got conquered the Starks bend their knee (and thus ware no Kings anymore)

so no thats not possible.

Yes it could have. If it became obvious the Starks would lose the war to say, Renly (if he'd taken King's Landing) but it would cost Renly a lot, I can see Robb offering to pay tribute to the Iron Throne in return for nominal independece.

And who's saying book logic should trump gameplay now?

 

[the_hdk]

well in that case he would still be independent so could be a king I don't know how tributes are done in CK2 so I can't comment on that.

I just dont see how anyone on teh Iron Throne would accept another KING as a vassal. not done IMO.

again if you dont agree with my setup good luck making your own mod.

 

[Ruwaard]

only in game terms, the kingdoms would be game-term-empires no? Just cause its called King doesnt mean its fulfills the role of the mechanic called King in game, thats all just localisation.
The declaration of a King is setting him as equal in authority with the Iron Throne, not as one step below it.

Not necessarily, the king of the Andals, Rhoynar and the First Men (Iron Throne) could be imperial and the other Westerosi kingdom titles could (and IMHO should) be royal. Kings don't have to be vassals of an emperor, in fact most won't be and those who are will want it to be theoretically as possible.
The creation of the regional king title will lead to independence from the Iron throne. Ideally the Iron throne should not be able to create these royal titles, but independence should lead to a claim.

 

[Galle]

Yes it could have. If it became obvious the Starks would lose the war to say, Renly (if he'd taken King's Landing) but it would cost Renly a lot, I can see Robb offering to pay tribute to the Iron Throne in return for nominal independece.

This seems like an extremely rare corner case, and it certainly never happened in the books, so why should it be a priority? Should it happen in the course of the game, I have no problem with forcing Renly to go for all-or-nothing on taking back the North. And to implement it, we'd need to give up a bunch of playable houses and/or come up with some really wonky province arrangements. It's just not worth the cost.

 

[the_hdk]

Not necessarily, the king of the Andals, Rhoynar and the First Men (Iron Throne) could be imperial and the other Westerosi kingdom titles could (and IMHO should) be royal. Kings don't have to be vassals of an emperor, in fact most won't be and those who are will want it to be theoretically as possible.
The creation of the regional king title will lead to independence from the Iron throne. Ideally the Iron throne should not be able to create these royal titles, but independence should lead to a claim.

well problem is Imperial title can vasalize King title