Game is pointless for me with new inheritance system

Game is pointless for me with new inheritance system

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Fallenangel85

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Yes the "What if" should not be hard coded out. What everyone is missing here is all this hard coded must reach certain date to advance absolutely kills the ability of the player to do his "what if". No I'm not talking about starting with gunpowder but "what if" I had a realm like Rome in mind? Talk to any historian. When Rome fell it threw the world backwards 500 years. Or in other words Rome was 500 years ahead of the rest of the world with the republic, the sewers, the baths, aqueducts.

Crusaders Kings 3 is telling me Rome didn't happen. It's not possible. Even if I'm Enstein and my whole court is genius I can't do it until some preset absurd date is reached.

We've hard coded out your what if...a key element to the game for those of us from Crusader kings 2.

Well Rome did exist. ar·bi·trar·y (based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.) dates to reach certain decisions and options is absurd and a·his·tor·i·cal (lacking historical perspective or context.)
So you want the option to jump ahead in time to go for primogeniture, even if it would take like 100 years to get it early starting in 867?
There is a reason technology advanced the way it did. Change takes time and happens gradually. Being a Genius ahead of the time just made you a lunatic that was burned at the stake.

Maybe you should try the "Restore Rome" achievement, just to see how much fun it is.

I haven't found a single decision that's locked behind a date yet.
And the technology system is vastly superior to ck2, since it's no longer based on stealing tech in the Byzantine Empire and you have more freedom to choose.

Succession is an important part of the gameplay and a lot of fun.
If you want easy succession just use a mod or the console... (with mods you can probably also change how tech advancement works)

PS: The "crusader kings community" proofs very well how difficult we humans adapt to change. There is a million ways to effectively get Primogeniture before 1200, but people just assume it's not possible or are to lazy to learn new tricks.
 
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iniudan

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Honestly you NEED more children for renoun. It gives huge bonuses. Like +30% genius (or any other trait) inheritanse if you manage to get it. So less children is not so good option.
If you ask me you are better with beautiful, fecund, or pure blood, then you can start breeding in other trait. Beautiful and fecund for the obvious fertility bonus, and pure blood for been the key to not end up like the Hapsburg, while trying to get strong blood.
 

Ares Enyalios

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Dead people don't talk, which is how that 3 way war for English succession happened.
Just give them their share while they are still alive or get rid of them entirely beforehand.
Or fight a civil war, like brothers do.
That only adds to another problem: We can name our grandchildren like in CK2. Because they choose bogus names, i never give them land or marry them because i can't control them in that regard. If i had that choice i would be way more eager to give them titles.
 

maxk94

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Because the Crusader Kings series has always been about characters, not countries or kingdoms. If you want a game about only blobbing, play EUIV or something.
Exactly. In Ck3 especially you have to think about your dynasty and not your own domaine!
 
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Niko92

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It's not that bad, unless you get hit with a streak of bad luck. If you are head of your dynasty, you can really cheaply disinherit even your own children for just a little bit of renown and an opinion hit.

If your land does get divided, quite often your siblings will help you attack your other siblings, which means that you'll have your realm back together quite quickly
 

eyegore

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So you want the option to jump ahead in time to go for primogeniture, even if it would take like 100 years to get it early starting in 867?
There is a reason technology advanced the way it did. Change takes time and happens gradually. Being a Genius ahead of the time just made you a lunatic that was burned at the stake.

Maybe you should try the "Restore Rome" achievement, just to see how much fun it is.

I haven't found a single decision that's locked behind a date yet.
And the technology system is vastly superior to ck2, since it's no longer based on stealing tech in the Byzantine Empire and you have more freedom to choose.

Succession is an important part of the gameplay and a lot of fun.
If you want easy succession just use a mod or the console... (with mods you can probably also change how tech advancement works)

PS: The "crusader kings community" proofs very well how difficult we humans adapt to change. There is a million ways to effectively get Primogeniture before 1200, but people just assume it's not possible or are to lazy to learn new tricks.
Your whole argument about 'it takes time" is akin to saying Rome didn't exist. Well it did. 600 years earlier and the leaders didn't get burned....they created a republic. And BTW if you've ever wondered WHY some countries never advanced while others did there's an excellent book on the subject- but the condensed reason is "You have to get the politics right". By creating the republic Rome advanced 100s of years. it's how we went to the moon. not because we have higher I.Q. but rather because our politics allowed it. It's why no Cures come out of Iraq, or no World reknown doctors come out of China and also why even our closest neighbor Mexico is still a third world country.

400 years to change a succession law is rediculous when we the history of Rome behind us. waiting until 1200 AD for most of the advances already discovered is even more so.

Being forced to play the way you like instead of how I like says it all. Neither of us should have to compromise. But I have to turn to cheating and mods-- which just again proves the core design is at issue.
 
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sauced

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Because the Crusader Kings series has always been about characters, not countries or kingdoms. If you want a game about only blobbing, play EUIV or something. Historically succession was a lot more like how you dislike it in-game, compared to how you want it to be.
Exactly why i always preferred CK2 over EU IV, i don't care about dirt or bigger fish power play, even though it was satisfying beating America to a pulp with a native tribe, it felt like justice. I have always been more about people and their individual struggles rather than something so simple as land.
 

Ashlantean

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I don't think so, I'm still having issues. My top title (Kingdom of Ireland) and a random county go to my tanist, but everything else is split up by straight up partition among my sons. I hadn't noticed this happening yesterday. Even if I set the duchies I have to tanistry as well, the counties within them get split up.

So in my case, my tanist (3rd son) gets Isle of Man, Duchy of Meath, Duchy of Connacht, and Kingdom of Ireland. Every county within Meath (my capital duchy) goes to my eldest son, and every county within Connacht goes to my 2nd son.

Edit: Just wanted to add. This can't be intended, right? If it is, elective succession is pointless. I figured elective was used to give flexibility to determine your primary heir, rather than your eldest son having that spot. Basically, I figured adding an elective law to the top title makes your realm partition effectively into elective gavelkind.
It does feel there are still quirks that need to be ironed out with succession. The realm capital tooltip says that the realm capital always goes to the primary heir but that isn't the experience I'm having at the moment :confused:

I have Scandinavian Elective with Confederate Partition enabled on Empire of Sweden, Kingdom of Sweden, Duchy of Uppland and the Fylkirate. I nominate someone so that I have the same player and primary heir for each of those titles. Then I will lose the realm capital county of Uppland when the succession happens. It doesn't feel right and I'm hoping either there's still tweaking to be done or it becomes clearer in-game why the succession behaves this way.
 

SingularityHRT3

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It does feel there are still quirks that need to be ironed out with succession. The realm capital tooltip says that the realm capital always goes to the primary heir but that isn't the experience I'm having at the moment :confused:

I have Scandinavian Elective with Confederate Partition enabled on Empire of Sweden, Kingdom of Sweden, Duchy of Uppland and the Fylkirate. I nominate someone so that I have the same player and primary heir for each of those titles. Then I will lose the realm capital county of Uppland when the succession happens. It doesn't feel right and I'm hoping either there's still tweaking to be done or it becomes clearer in-game why the succession behaves this way.
That is because "Primary Heir" is different from "Player Heir" and Elective successions in titles can mess things up.
I think this thread will help you understand it. https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/succession-laws-explained.1419049/
 

Fallenangel85

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Your whole argument about 'it takes time" is akin to saying Rome didn't exist. Well it did. 600 years earlier and the leaders didn't get burned....they created a republic. And BTW if you've ever wondered WHY some countries never advanced while others did there's an excellent book on the subject- but the condensed reason is "You have to get the politics right". By creating the republic Rome advanced 100s of years. it's how we went to the moon. not because we have higher I.Q. but rather because our politics allowed it. It's why no Cures come out of Iraq, or no World reknown doctors come out of China and also why even our closest neighbor Mexico is still a third world country.

400 years to change a succession law is rediculous when we the history of Rome behind us. waiting until 1200 AD for most of the advances already discovered is even more so.

Being forced to play the way you like instead of how I like says it all. Neither of us should have to compromise. But I have to turn to cheating and mods-- which just again proves the core design is at issue.
Dealing with succession is a core system of the gameplay.
Just going for the "I win/easy solution button" was a weakness of ck2.
Succession is way more deep in CK3 and that's a good thing.
Late Primogeniture was a gameplay decision and a good one.

You can even have easy early Primogeniture, just desinherit your other heirs, since Renown didn't exists in ck2 you loose nothing by your logic.

Btw it took Rome way over a hundred years to go from city to republic and an even longer time to get the Empire.

China is largely cut off from the world. There is really good doctors over there and they are ahead in many fields to the USA.
China is leading in terms of actual "cures" in the world right now...

And did you actually hit the point were you are stopped from progressing by the date limit?
Because by my calculation it's not even possible to hit that mark
 
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Ashlantean

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That is because "Primary Heir" is different from "Player Heir" and Elective successions in titles can mess things up.
I think this thread will help you understand it. https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/succession-laws-explained.1419049/
I had a glance but have instead spent an unreasonably long time going over everything available in-game with a fine comb.

The game doesn't highlight the primary heir in the same way as player heir anywhere, but given the realm capital tooltip speaks of the primary heir keeping the realm capital, it appears in this case the primary heir is my eldest son, the Count of Dortmund. From the titles lost on succession area on the Realm page he is going to get my realm capital, the county of Uppland.

realm succession.pngrealm capital tooltip.png

My primary title is the Empire of Sweden. I use Scandinavian Elective which selects amongst my dynasty members for the succession. I believed that any inheritor of my primary title would have to also be the primary heir. The player heir and primary heir, given that Scandinavian Elective only picks between dynasty members, seem like they should be interchangeable.

title succession.pngprimary heir tooltip.png

In actual fact, Scandinavian Elective is a Title succession law - it only applies to the title itself. My Realm succession law is Confederate Partition. Title succession laws can over-ride realm succession laws at Empire, Kingdom and Duchy tiers but only realm succession law applies at county title tier. Ergo, no matter what I believe happens with the succession on my primary title, all my counties to go to my children.

Meanwhile realm capital appears to only refer to the capital of your own direct domain provinces, it bears no relation to any higher tier titles held. The personal domain capital of the player character is not the same as having a set-in-stone, unchanging empire capital. Essentially, if I want to keep Uppland each succession I need to get my first-born child elected.

The de-coupling of succession between realm and title succession laws have made this very muddy. I can see some logic in how it's working, but it's deeply confusing to have a primary heir defined by a different set of rules to the ones that apply to the primary title down at the holding/domain level. The primary heir should be identified explicitly in the UI somewhere to make this easier to see.
 

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It's not so much that one is forced to use Partition for so long for me, that's fine. But the way it works and, most importantly, the way it's explained makes the whole thing a whole lot more frustrating than it has to be.
The things I ran into were:

1. Claim distribution, and why it makes letting the realm split a better idea than keeping it together: If multiple top-tier titles are split, your primary heir gets claims on them, just as their siblings get claims on yours. But if you keep the realm together, you have a realm where everyone has claims on your titles, and you don't have claims on any of theirs. I really think this should be explained in a tooltip, especially to new players.

2. Illogical Dejure distribution: I haven't run into my realm capital being split off from my primary heir, but the way in which heirs get land in each other's de jure duchy (and especially in mine) bug the crap out of me. Not sure if that changed so much, because in my latest campaign, I was trying out tribal starts, which leads to:

3. Uncontrollable children: This is mostly from experimenting with some of the few flavors of paganism that offer gender equality. I honestly think it's objectively hard mode. Not will you always have more kids than titles (unless you do the things that the game is explicitly incentivizing you not to do through prestige penalties, etc.), but after a little while it becomes nearly impossible to manage their breeding. Led me to a situation in which my primary heir ended up being a landed granddaughter of somebody that didn't marry matrilineally.


I feel a lot of this is more a problem of signifying rather than broken game mechanics, as such. As to whether or not it's actually fun, well... I'd be more chill about it if I was certain that letting the game play out this way was not going to result in being steamrolled by my neighbors. Because the thing with grand strategy is, with most games, either you're snowballing, or the AI is, and its you or them, ultimately. Almost every player has that paranoia at the back of their mind, that if they're not keeping on top of things, with every advantage and trick in the book, they're dead meat.

I haven't played enough CK3 to see how justified this fear would be for this game. I have a sense that its less so than most, since the AI is dealing with the same issues for about as long as the player, but I can definitely say that for the past 5 generations in my west Africa game, I've had to deal with a Mega-Ghana on my doorstep that doesn't splinter nearly as much as mine (it doesn't help that their vassals are inheriting my land, because my female vassal members of my dynasty didn't marry matrilineally). That might be special circumstances, but the main point is, does the game actively incentivize me (through the prestige and renown mechanics) to play in a way that is of long-term detriment, or is my paranoia ruining my fun?


Also, can I just say that I miss the way CK2 handled Elective Gavekind? Sure, realm split, but at least I got to play as the best of the possible splittees with a little work. Actually, I wouldn't mind that being the first tech-locked succession type (because I have no idea why one of the cultural innovations is Gavelkind, which enables you to select a law which everyone is already starting as/locked to).
There was also the option to "duel for claims", which I almost always pursued/accepted, since I got to play as the winner either way. Miss that, too.
 
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SingularityHRT3

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Sep 1, 2020
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I had a glance but have instead spent an unreasonably long time going over everything available in-game with a fine comb.

The game doesn't highlight the primary heir in the same way as player heir anywhere, but given the realm capital tooltip speaks of the primary heir keeping the realm capital, it appears in this case the primary heir is my eldest son, the Count of Dortmund. From the titles lost on succession area on the Realm page he is going to get my realm capital, the county of Uppland.

View attachment 620388View attachment 620387

My primary title is the Empire of Sweden. I use Scandinavian Elective which selects amongst my dynasty members for the succession. I believed that any inheritor of my primary title would have to also be the primary heir. The player heir and primary heir, given that Scandinavian Elective only picks between dynasty members, seem like they should be interchangeable.

View attachment 620389View attachment 620386

In actual fact, Scandinavian Elective is a Title succession law - it only applies to the title itself. My Realm succession law is Confederate Partition. Title succession laws can over-ride realm succession laws at Empire, Kingdom and Duchy tiers but only realm succession law applies at county title tier. Ergo, no matter what I believe happens with the succession on my primary title, all my counties to go to my children.

Meanwhile realm capital appears to only refer to the capital of your own direct domain provinces, it bears no relation to any higher tier titles held. The personal domain capital of the player character is not the same as having a set-in-stone, unchanging empire capital. Essentially, if I want to keep Uppland each succession I need to get my first-born child elected.

The de-coupling of succession between realm and title succession laws have made this very muddy. I can see some logic in how it's working, but it's deeply confusing to have a primary heir defined by a different set of rules to the ones that apply to the primary title down at the holding/domain level. The primary heir should be identified explicitly in the UI somewhere to make this easier to see.
Indeed, there is a lot of confusion when there is a different succession law on any title. Seems to Me that the mechanics is broken somewhere. There have been many reports that the succession laws aren't working properly. But as far as I have tested, if the Title succession laws are not changed, the Realm succession laws work as intended, just like how I have explained in that thread. I hope Paradox fixes Title succession laws calculation or makes the process clear.
 
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Fallenangel85

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It's not so much that one is forced to use Partition for so long for me, that's fine. But the way it works and, most importantly, the way it's explained makes the whole thing a whole lot more frustrating than it has to be.
The things I ran into were:

1. Claim distribution, and why it makes letting the realm split a better idea than keeping it together: If multiple top-tier titles are split, your primary heir gets claims on them, just as their siblings get claims on yours. But if you keep the realm together, you have a realm where everyone has claims on your titles, and you don't have claims on any of theirs. I really think this should be explained in a tooltip, especially to new players.

2. Illogical Dejure distribution: I haven't run into my realm capital being split off from my primary heir, but the way in which heirs get land in each other's de jure duchy (and especially in mine) bug the crap out of me. Not sure if that changed so much, because in my latest campaign, I was trying out tribal starts, which leads to:

3. Uncontrollable children: This is mostly from experimenting with some of the few flavors of paganism that offer gender equality. I honestly think it's objectively hard mode. Not will you always have more kids than titles (unless you do the things that the game is explicitly incentivizing you not to do through prestige penalties, etc.), but after a little while it becomes nearly impossible to manage their breeding. Led me to a situation in which my primary heir ended up being a landed granddaughter of somebody that didn't marry matrilineally.


I feel a lot of this is more a problem of signifying rather than broken game mechanics, as such. As to whether or not it's actually fun, well... I'd be more chill about it if I was certain that letting the game play out this way was not going to result in being steamrolled by my neighbors. Because the thing with grand strategy is, with most games, either you're snowballing, or the AI is, and its you or them, ultimately. Almost every player has that paranoia at the back of their mind, that if they're not keeping on top of things, with every advantage and trick in the book, they're dead meat.

I haven't played enough CK3 to see how justified this fear would be for this game. I have a sense that its less so than most, since the AI is dealing with the same issues for about as long as the player, but I can definitely say that for the past 5 generations in my west Africa game, I've had to deal with a Mega-Ghana on my doorstep that doesn't splinter nearly as much as mine (it doesn't help that their vassals are inheriting my land, because my female vassal members of my dynasty didn't marry matrilineally). That might be special circumstances, but the main point is, does the game actively incentivize me (through the prestige and renown mechanics) to play in a way that is of long-term detriment, or is my paranoia ruining my fun?


Also, can I just say that I miss the way CK2 handled Elective Gavekind? Sure, realm split, but at least I got to play as the best of the possible splittees with a little work. Actually, I wouldn't mind that being the first tech-locked succession type (because I have no idea why one of the cultural innovations is Gavelkind, which enables you to select a law which everyone is already starting as/locked to).
There was also the option to "duel for claims", which I almost always pursued/accepted, since I got to play as the winner either way. Miss that, too.
Another west African Player, I'm at the point of having multiple Empire titles, since I own all of west Africa.
The problem with that is obvious, I'm very glad that I still run Females preferred and not full equality, otherwise I'd have a big problem keeping it together.

One easy solution is to go Learning focus first and get celibacy, this way you can control the amount of children you have.
The other option was sadly to make my heir "sadistic" and have unwanted children vanish...
And going to the Heir once he reaches adulthood. You can do so by getting max stress, then the Mental Break gives the option to just step back as the leader without death.
If your Leader is a psychopath than things are more complicated and need planning in advance. (not getting stressed by anything at all)

The biggest Blob aside from me is the "Arabic Empire" to the East, but we are friends for now and they keep the Byzantines in check. (the Byzantines didn't grow at all)
 

AnandB

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Sep 6, 2020
12
8
Early game was able to get away by making kingdoms. These news kingdoms had nothing except 1-2 holdings and after succession was easily able to claim back from siblings as they were too weak and heir acquired majority titles in his kingdom.
 

Staal

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Your whole argument about 'it takes time" is akin to saying Rome didn't exist. Well it did. 600 years earlier and the leaders didn't get burned....they created a republic. And BTW if you've ever wondered WHY some countries never advanced while others did there's an excellent book on the subject- but the condensed reason is "You have to get the politics right". By creating the republic Rome advanced 100s of years. it's how we went to the moon. not because we have higher I.Q. but rather because our politics allowed it. It's why no Cures come out of Iraq, or no World reknown doctors come out of China and also why even our closest neighbor Mexico is still a third world country.

400 years to change a succession law is rediculous when we the history of Rome behind us. waiting until 1200 AD for most of the advances already discovered is even more so.

Being forced to play the way you like instead of how I like says it all. Neither of us should have to compromise. But I have to turn to cheating and mods-- which just again proves the core design is at issue.
The waiting time is the cultural politics part. If primo is available immediately every other succession mechanic becomes meaningless. Partitioning was a cultural thing. If a king simply ignored it (maybe we should be able to) there would be swathes of nobles supporting the other sons who would be very upset that dear father ignored tradition and the folk law.

So maybe at best it should not be a hard lock but the tech removes very harsh opinion modifiers to a primo heir under partition cultural law.

A small realm could easily override it but a large 2-3 kingdom realm would descend into chaos. Best of both worlds?
 
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