Game is broken - I want my money back!!!

[Sillsallad]

@Developers
As you can see very clearly from the other posts in this thread, there are serious issues.

Half of the posts disagree with you.

I can imagine that there may be a strong event chain out there which boosts the USSR so that the can hold back the German onslaught, but only IF they survive that long AND still have enough capabilities to bring that factor to take effect... When someone decides to play a minor like the spanish Republic you can do absolutely nothing about Germany annihilating the USSR in '41. And I'm talking about '33 Scenario with AOD 1.5 and Iron Cross 1.01. What I always enjoyed in the HOI Series (but absent in this game): It is always possible to avoid historical mistakes and that with (not always but sometimes) entertaining difficulty. But not in this game. E.g. for the USSR you have to set up a very sophisticated defence relying on an obscure event to fire (representing dubios cliches) to be at least as good as in history.

I really think you have a fair point here, and I too hope for a different path for the USSR, perhaps denying the great purge resulting in some serious turmoil ending in a plausible stronger nation? Trotskiist counterrevolution? There may be some clichés about the -39-41 red army, but they are not wrong, they took about 8 million losses through the war and lost 10-1 vs finland in a prepared offensive. The only controversy is about why, not if they sucked big time in the early war.

Common sense, logic and anticipatory planning have not much to do with that at all. It is just that you have to know that halting the german advance in an effective way (e.g. without losing the european part of the USSR) is not possible due to game mechanics and that you have to adapt otherwise sensible tactics and strategy to that absurd situation.

Not impossible, not even that hard actually. The historical mistake you can avoid here is to not get your army annihilated in the first months, i.e. organized retreat to defensive positions, in Europe, far from the mongolian borders...

 

[RojoLulch]

@Sillsallad
It's by far not half of the posts, since many posters disagreeing with me do not use the same game as I do... Anyway.

Mhmm, I really don't get why you insist on the fact that the Red Army failed in the Winter War despite having mobilized... You defalcate that there had been the purges right before the onset of the WInter War as well as a major change in the military doctrine. By 1935 the Red Army was considered (by foreign observers as well as the military intelligence agencies of the western powers) as one of the strongest, if not THE strongest army in the world. After the purges it was considered as being disorganized and not capable of conducting any major offensive operation. If you want I can name all major factors which contributed to that weakness. Now everyone of them IS represented in the game, so they can (like in every HOI II game other than IC) be avoided/counterbalanced within the game mechanics. So it is pointless to introduce other (not based on real live) factors making it virtually impossible to counter the disadvantages which led to the catastrophy in the WInter War (since they are there for the sole reason of preserving an unsensible clichee). Further you should note, that the offensive WAS ill prepared, due to the lack of artillery, heavily armored vehicles and air support. After the initial failure (despite outnumbering the Finns) the STAVKA reinforced the force for the invasion and soon afterwards (due to the breakthrough of the Mannerheim Line as well as a northern frontline breach) peace was concluded satisfying all war goals of the USSR. You see: Even with the organisatorial mistakes, the introduction of proper equipment was more than enough to fullfill the initial goals. I hope you can see that you were misinterpreting/missing the facts.

 

[unmerged(55787)]

I'm playing now for the third time through after installing the 1.01 patch, and I'm still not convinced that the OP was wrong. Here are my thoughts:

After an awful lot of luck and hard work I've managed, as Britain, to raise my IC to 200 by June 1941. Italy has 200 IC. In fact, Italy's had a better economy than Britain's since 1933. That simply isn't realistic. It was never the case that the Italians were either ready for or capable of a military campaign against a power like Britain. Yet here I am, struggling to hold back 30 divisions in N Africa while overhead waves of Italian fighters and naval bombers attack me.

Germany has nigh on 500 IC right now. It has 200 divisions, 170 of which are frontline fighting divisions. It still has 420 manpower. Hitler sent 160 divisions in to Russia, and he did that by scraping together every soldier he could. Divisions elsewhere were stripped bare.

German allies are supplying a colossal amount of fighting strength. Germany has Spain (again, third game out of three), Italy, Bulgaria, Romania, and Hungary. They are supplying around 100 divisions to the Germans. Fine, I can live with that. What I can't live with, however, is that the ORG of these divisions is 80, 90, or even 100. That's wrong.

Germany launched an attack in to Russia a month ago - May 1941. It's reached Moscow and Kiev already. The Russians had 250 divisions and just 10 air wings. They ought to have far more, of lower quality. Russia had the largest air force in the world in 1941, but I don't see any sign of this in my game.

German stockpiles of resources are monstrous. By June 1941 the Germans have accumulated 330,000 rare materials. Rare. Even though they're no longer gaining them it will take ten years for them to run out. Now this could be simply parsimony and judicious stockpiling, or it could be wrong. I think it's wrong. As British I've managed to acquire equally ludicrous reserves of material but I do at least have an Empire to acquire it from. Oh yes, and the Germans are still gaining more fuel than they're using because (somehow) Spain and Italy have vast reserves that they're trading.

It appears that, on the defeat of France and the creation of the Vichy regime, Germany gets free garrison units for the Atlantic and channel coasts. How does that make any sense at all?

My conclusion so far is that the Axis war machine is overpowered. The Italians are clearly overpowered by any definition. The Germans appear to have far too much manpower. The minor axis forces are producing too many military units and of too high quality. I appreciate that this is only my third play through on Iron Cross but I think that the mod suffers from the common flaw of gamers, which is the delusion that the Germans could've won because they had cool tanks and stylish uniforms.

One minor point which looks like a bug - I managed to ruin the German attempts to reach Norway (although facing eight brand new Plan Z heavy cruisers in May 1940 seemed wrong). They're still bombing Oslo. They're not making any attempt to land soldiers. And the German fleet is just sitting off the cost of Norfolk doing nothing.

 

[unmerged(55787)]

OK, I just started the 1939 game. For some bizarre reason, the Germans receive two free Bismarck class battleships in August 1939. Bismarck was commissioned in August 1940. Tirpitz in February 1941. If you absolutely have to give the already-overpowered Germans free stuff, at least put it in at the right time. The Germans also received two free heavy cruisers.

[Edited to delete the first paragraph - IC values appeared too low to start with but when I started running the scenario from 1933 as Germans the cost rose, so ignore that. However, the objection above remains.

 

[Julle64]

German stockpiles of resources are monstrous. By June 1941 the Germans have accumulated 330,000 rare materials. Rare. Even though they're no longer gaining them it will take ten years for them to run out. Now this could be simply parsimony and judicious stockpiling, or it could be wrong. I think it's wrong. As British I've managed to acquire equally ludicrous reserves of material but I do at least have an Empire to acquire it from. Oh yes, and the Germans are still gaining more fuel than they're using because (somehow) Spain and Italy have vast reserves that they're trading.

It's quite possible that they have got those stockpiles from Netherlands and France. In my recent game it's only April 1937 and France already has >100k energy and >50k metal, Netherlands has >70k rares. When you have time from 1933 to collect raw materials, some countries will have huge stockpiles when the war starts. This part of the game still seems to need some balancing.

 

[Julle64]

I don't particularly wish to reply to my own post, but I've just spotted something else that bothers me. In the 1933 game, the Germans start with two Panzerschiffe under construction. The IC cost for these ships is 4.0. That seems remarkably low. The ships were larger than a heavy cruiser and carried battlecruiser weapons. Why so cheap?

Furthermore, I just started the 1939 game. For some bizarre reason, the Germans receive two free Bismarck class battleships in August 1939. Bismarck was commissioned in August 1940. Tirpitz in February 1941. If you absolutely have to give the already-overpowered Germans free stuff, at least put it in at the right time.

Unfortunately these events simply reinforce my suspicion that this game is, as the OP put it, broken.

They have probably chosen yes in the Z-Plan event. It's an event where you can change IC for ships.

 

[Sillsallad]

@SillsalladMhmm, I really don't get why you insist on the fact that the Red Army failed in the Winter War despite having mobilized... You defalcate that there had been the purges right before the onset of the WInter War as well as a major change in the military doctrine. By 1935 the Red Army was considered (by foreign observers as well as the military intelligence agencies of the western powers) as one of the strongest, if not THE strongest army in the world. After the purges it was considered as being disorganized and not capable of conducting any major offensive operation. If you want I can name all major factors which contributed to that weakness. Now everyone of them IS represented in the game, so they can (like in every HOI II game other than IC) be avoided/counterbalanced within the game mechanics. So it is pointless to introduce other (not based on real live) factors making it virtually impossible to counter the disadvantages which led to the catastrophy in the WInter War (since they are there for the sole reason of preserving an unsensible clichee). Further you should note, that the offensive WAS ill prepared, due to the lack of artillery, heavily armored vehicles and air support. After the initial failure (despite outnumbering the Finns) the STAVKA reinforced the force for the invasion and soon afterwards (due to the breakthrough of the Mannerheim Line as well as a northern frontline breach) peace was concluded satisfying all war goals of the USSR. You see: Even with the organisatorial mistakes, the introduction of proper equipment was more than enough to fullfill the initial goals. I hope you can see that you were misinterpreting/missing the facts.

I'm pleased to see you totally agree with me that the controversy is about why they failed so badly.

 

[RojoLulch]

@sillsallad
Irony? If you read my post you should realize that it was not offtopic. If your post is not ironic then what is your point again?

 

[unmerged(55787)]

OK, I decided to find out whether or not I was whining for no good reason, by running a game through for the Germans from 1933 to September 1939 to see what happened. It's made me less, rather than more happy.

I didn't build any IC, just units, because I wanted to see what'd crop up during the game.

Germany started with 88/96 peacetime IC and finished with 174/303 peacetime IC, and 160/267 Wartime IC. So during that 6 1/2 year period event real German IC (without modifiers) doubled. The British increased theirs by about 8%.

The main reason for this is the crippling events which, as Britain, ensure that you are unable to do literally anything until 1938, by which time you've no chance to build up IC to deal with the onslaught. But the Germans received 22 IC in events and, of course, they're able to finish 2/3 of the Industrial tech tree by 1939 which gives them their huge bonuses.

With my standard IC I'd managed to create a pretty serviceable armed force - 24 fighters, 12 interceptors, 12 tac, 8 CAS, 4 naval. I'd created 6 armoured divisions, 60 infantry and 6 motorised, 12 mountain and 2 para. I'd also been building a navy.

Now what I had been building would put me almost on par, but not quite, with what the Germans fielded against the poles in 1939. However the events tossed that balance right out of the window. Here are a couple of them:

'Creation of the Luftwaffe' - this event gives you a free air force. Yes, for free, 5 Tac Bombers and 2 Interceptors. For no good reason as far as I could tell. Everyone else has to build their air forces but magically the Germans create theirs out of thin air. Oh, and they somehow acquired all the blueprints to all the planes just in case it wasn't too easy already.

Plan Z - I went for the 'mixed fleet', and (again for free) this is what I got:

4 x BB IV
6 x CA VII
4 x DD IV
1 x CV 4
8 x SS III

Yes, I got an entire capital ship fleet, for free, provided for no IC cost. Now when the British lay down their fleet in 1935, they have to build it. What's worse is that the British get ships at the tech level they've researched! Not the Germans, oh no! Despite not researching any naval tech my warships came out modern and high-tech!

What the hell is going on in the creator's mind?

While I'm on a roll, I'd also like to rant about techs. Could someone explain to me, please, why the Germans get an event that gifts them all the blueprints for rocketry? Why, too, do the Germans get an event that gifts them blueprints for carriers and CAGs?

Finally, the Germans have no worries about dissent getting out of control. The events are loaded to ensure that they can't. Hindenburg built? Yay, -2 Dissent. Hindenburg crashes and burns? Shucks, no dissent hit. I was getting something like -8% per year in dissent bonuses.

Now I can see the argument for a totalitarian dictatorship not receiving dissent hits. But surely that argument works both ways? You can't get dissent hits for something, so why should you get dissent boosts when the opposite happens?

 

[OLDTIMER]

Hi Soddball,

you play ARMA or AoD?

AFAIU AoD, at least as released was grossly overbalanced in German favour. That`s why I didn`t buy it. Maybe this percolated down to IC.

Anyway, what you`ve seen as per above is totally unacceptable for me as a paying customer. Contrary to what Quintelosky claims human and AI seem to play different games.
I still say that a human will win in SP much more often than AI but through adapting to fake difficulties and using gamey methods.
But myself, I want a realistic game having at least something in common with the historical situation.

I like adversity if it`s based on history. Here it seems to be everything but.

I demand from the devs a change of their approach. They are not modders anymore but commercial game developers and bdy obliged to comply with the customer demands.

Rgds, Oldtimer

 

[ljigsrb]

Germany is overpowered, but USA is a monster can’t be beaten. in Jan of 42 they dropped NUKE in Berlin i have started nuclear research in 39, in 43 im not even near creating nuclear reactor nuke i can only dream of. my research modifier was never under 100 % full speed running. Usa very smart AI . seek for possible landings and wont give up. Game is totally unbalanced. Have some potential but so far is unplayable. Another think, in 42 USA downed Japan main islands without even conquering any small pacific island and made Japan as Puppet in 1942 which is totally unrealistic

 

[unmerged(237531)]

Another think, in 42 USA downed Japan main islands without even conquering any small pacific island and made Japan as Puppet in 1942 which is totally unrealistic

But it is logical. However, there are still some issues to balance. Are panzer divisions finally stronger than the infantry ones?

 

[Sillsallad]

@sillsallad
Irony? If you read my post you should realize that it was not offtopic. If your post is not ironic then what is your point again?

No irony whatsoever, reread our posts and perhaps you'll understand that you're fighting windmills.

 

[OLDTIMER]

Hi,

yes, USA is the reason why the Allies will win every(?) time in SP regardless of any initial successes for the Axis.

Frankly I believe this models reality well. But for gameplay and challenge this too needs rethinking.
Maybe IC is geared to make WW III interesting and challenging and WW II is only a prelude to it.
BUT for a WW III we need a strong SU...

I think IC as is has not only a lot of potential but is quite rewarding to play especially as some minor/medium powers.
But I demand that the devs address the deficiencies in their game ASAP.

Rgds, Oldtimer

 

[OLDTIMER]

Hi,

panzers maybe even too strong. 2 marine, 1 mtn and 1 inf could not beat a single panzer div. The three commando divs(lvl 1) had all specialized eng and inf(basic) had basic light arty. The panzers(Pz III) did have a heavy tank brigade IIRC though. Or SP arty maybe...

Rgds, Oldtimer

 

[datachild]

My experience is for rev 2 only, but reading this thread it seems that the this is also true for 1.01.
Playing as Germany and thanks to the very low GDE it took me around 1 month to annihilate the SU army, save a few (<10) devisions that escaped my pockets. After this I just watched my devisions march over empty red plains until the bitter peace kicked in. Even if this initial slaughtering would have taken longer the current setup is in no way a match for a human Germany. Since such a quick victory on the main front somehow made the game boring I set the GDE of the SOV to my level. I still beat them, but it took at least until 1942 until victory was assured. That leads to two assumptions:
1.) Mess arround with the GDE is perfectly fine to simulate defensive wars for a human players (e.g. as SOV), or to create historical results in AI vs AI wars.
2.) Changes in GDE are unacceptable for a human player playing an aggressor (the problems GER vs POL comes to mind) or for an AI country fighting a human player (e.g. human GER vs AI SOV).

EDIT: On a side note, the very fast nuke research of the USA was a problem in my game as well. If the timing would be more historical (finish the fist nuke in 1944) it would be fine.

 

[RojoLulch]

@sillasallad
Ok, then there shouldn't be any disagreement about the main reasons of the failure in the Winter War. The mechanics to reproduce it are present in all HOI games, even in IC and that WITHOUT additional buffs for the germans or debuffs for the USSR. It is just about the composition of the army and the technology/doctrines being used. So we have no need for additional, magical factors...

@Developers
Why don't you respond to the discontent of us? After the initial, arrogant posts you refused to add something substantial.

Regards

 

[Bismarck1899]

i think the weak soviet union was a problem in mod 34(someting like a prototype of ic) as well.

 

[Julle64]

Just out of curiosity. Has anyone played USSR with AoD version and checked if the new scorched earth tactic is available? If it is, does the AI use it?

 

[ljigsrb]

Hi,

yes, USA is the reason why the Allies will win every(?) time in SP regardless of any initial successes for the Axis.

Frankly I believe this models reality well. But for gameplay and challenge this too needs rethinking.
Maybe IC is geared to make WW III interesting and challenging and WW II is only a prelude to it.
BUT for a WW III we need a strong SU...

I think IC as is has not only a lot of potential but is quite rewarding to play especially as some minor/medium powers.
But I demand that the devs address the deficiencies in their game ASAP.

Rgds, Oldtimer

Well allies won the war in Europe due to Russians with or without USA help. 2/3 of German forces got destroyed in eastern front. So when or if u crush SU add few more years investing in navy and world is yours. Bottom-line war was won due to Russians not USA.