Game does not need both Trade Protection and Piracy Supression

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

EvilKnievel82

Major
31 Badges
Jun 10, 2015
521
5
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Imperator: Rome
In principle the current system could lead to interesting situations when you for example completely rely on border star bases for trade protection of very high trade value. If you now loose one of those stations in a war, you could suddenly face multiple strong pirate fleets from all the accumulated piracy you did not suppress. However, such a situation is probably a bit hypothetical and I do not know if it would really happen with the RNG spawning mechanics we have now for piracy.
 

Jmes Snowscoran

First Lieutenant
44 Badges
May 27, 2010
245
49
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Knights of Honor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Prison Architect
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
They do combine though. Trade protection represents the floor that the actual piracy needs to exceed before it can do damage. Suppression reduces the current piracy.

They don't combine particularly well. In fact, they have a nice anti-synergy going.

Let's take an example. Assume you have a trade route with 100 max piracy that you're finally deciding to do something about. So you build a citadel with 90 trade protection, which cuts actual losses to piracy down to 10. So far so good- but you want to get rid of the last 10 points as well, so you send in a few corvettes. Nothing happens. You bump the fleet up to 10 corvettes just hanging in the same system, but still nothing happens- your corvettes are not doing anything! That's because 10 corvettes giving 100 piracy suppression still won't cause the piracy levels to budge- even if the actual piracy losses are just 10 due to trade protection from the citadel. So you bump the corvette fleet with a few more ships, which finally gets rid of all piracy after a while- at which point you realize it's now your citadel not doing anything.

It's a pointlessly complex nuisance. The smart solution would be to just merge the two concepts into one, so fleets would provide protection and stations suppression.
 

AlazkanAssassin

Major
35 Badges
Apr 20, 2017
560
207
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
I’m not a fan of the micro of assigning my corvettes to all of the different trade routes. Can we get a button that says “go protect trade” and the corvettes figure out where they are needed on their own?
How about a part of the trade interface that tells me how many corvettes i currently have assigned to protect trade, and how many more i need to protect it completely.
 

Chieron

General
72 Badges
Nov 27, 2011
1.956
586
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Surviving Mars
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
I've now implemented my aforementioned solution - all collector systems have gateways. This works like a charm. But of course it is pretty expensive to set up. However, I can avoid the stupidity of 10+ corvette fleets assigned to trade protection.
 

Scorpio_Shirica

Second Lieutenant
99 Badges
Oct 23, 2013
158
327
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • BATTLETECH
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • King Arthur II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
Is it possible to simply improve the patrol affect on piracy suppression to make it as effective as parking each individual member of the fleet along the trade route without creating clutter and unnecessary tediousness? I feel like the way EU4 does trade protection is pretty good.
 

Xeorm

Lt. General
77 Badges
Jun 27, 2011
1.595
2.029
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Age of Wonders
  • Age of Wonders III
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Surviving Mars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • BATTLETECH
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Ancient Space
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Cities in Motion
They don't combine particularly well. In fact, they have a nice anti-synergy going.

Let's take an example. Assume you have a trade route with 100 max piracy that you're finally deciding to do something about. So you build a citadel with 90 trade protection, which cuts actual losses to piracy down to 10. So far so good- but you want to get rid of the last 10 points as well, so you send in a few corvettes. Nothing happens. You bump the fleet up to 10 corvettes just hanging in the same system, but still nothing happens- your corvettes are not doing anything! That's because 10 corvettes giving 100 piracy suppression still won't cause the piracy levels to budge- even if the actual piracy losses are just 10 due to trade protection from the citadel. So you bump the corvette fleet with a few more ships, which finally gets rid of all piracy after a while- at which point you realize it's now your citadel not doing anything.

It's a pointlessly complex nuisance. The smart solution would be to just merge the two concepts into one, so fleets would provide protection and stations suppression.

The issue with having it all come from stations is a scaling problem. You only have so many modules to use and it gets expensive quick. But your example is a very good example of how not to use the system. The system isn't at fault for being used improperly.
 

Zenopath

Colonel
30 Badges
Oct 30, 2011
1.158
93
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Surviving Mars
  • BATTLETECH
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • War of the Roses
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Impire
  • Magicka
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
They don't combine particularly well. In fact, they have a nice anti-synergy going.

Let's take an example. Assume you have a trade route with 100 max piracy that you're finally deciding to do something about. So you build a citadel with 90 trade protection, which cuts actual losses to piracy down to 10. So far so good- but you want to get rid of the last 10 points as well, so you send in a few corvettes. Nothing happens. You bump the fleet up to 10 corvettes just hanging in the same system, but still nothing happens- your corvettes are not doing anything! That's because 10 corvettes giving 100 piracy suppression still won't cause the piracy levels to budge- even if the actual piracy losses are just 10 due to trade protection from the citadel. So you bump the corvette fleet with a few more ships, which finally gets rid of all piracy after a while- at which point you realize it's now your citadel not doing anything.

It's a pointlessly complex nuisance. The smart solution would be to just merge the two concepts into one, so fleets would provide protection and stations suppression.

This is what I originally thought was the case in my OP before I edited it. It is not quite right though. When you mouse over your system you get these numbers (Using your example):

Trade Route Value: 100+
Max Piracy: 100
Piracy Effect (PE): 10
Current Piracy (CP): 100
Trade Protection (TP): 90

The PE is what actually cuases losses to trade value. In this situation PE: 10 means you lose 10 trade value. If you move in a fleet of 10 corvettes, which each give 10 suppression each, that would be 100 suppression so it would gradually drop the CP down to 0. The thing is, that doesnt happen instantly, it takes a little while. if you watch the number will go down, but you might need more than 10 corvettes for the CP to go down to 0 in the time that the patrol spends in system. But stationing 10 corvettes would eventually reduce CP to 0. Having 10 corvettes pass through might not be enough though. Sending 20 would double the speed at which CP drops, which might be enough to bring it to 0 in the time it takes your fleet to pass through. Then depending on how long it takes your corvettes to come back on their patrol, the number will grow again.

This is where TP matters, while you might not be able to get CP at 0 with a 10 corvette patrol. You should have no problems keeping it under 90, which means the trade is safe. PE is equal to CP minus TP. If TP is higher than CP, then CP does not have any effect other than giving a chance of spawning a pirate fleet.

Keeping CP at 0 prevents fleets from spawning. Keeping PE at 0 prevents losses to trade.

In the above situtation, parking 1 corvette in the system would be enough to lower PE to 0 and protect your trade, because it would permanently drop current piracy to 90, which would be countered by the TP value. But you would need to park 10 corvettes to bring CP to 0 and completely prevent any chance of a pirate fleet spawning.
 
Last edited:

AlphaAsh

Miserable Git
52 Badges
Mar 16, 2015
1.274
1.185
www.alphastrikegames.com
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Season pass
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Premium edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • BATTLETECH
  • BATTLETECH - Beta Backer
  • BATTLETECH - Backer
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Surviving Mars
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
As much as I like the new trade mechanics, due to the performance issues and the necessary micro-management of patrols, I've tried a couple of modding solutions.

First one I did publish, which is Space Rangers, which is just a starbase building that increases the range and protection of hangar bays. This obviously doesn't address the performance issue, but does reduce the need for patrols.

The second solution that I'm not sure I'll be publishing, is I've removed orbital trade deposits completely. Only colonised planets generate trade. This has heavily reduced the need for patrols, made the piracy/protection mechanic a lot easier to grok and has vastly improved performance. It does devalue many systems and therefore changes the value of expanding/not expanding. Depending on your play-style and perspective of that.
 
Last edited: