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Originally posted by C444Lockhart
i know it's silly arguing over semantics..

but i prefer a game that is historically realistic
as opposed to historically accurate.

where the definition of accurate is : "In exact or careful conformity to truth, or to some standard of requirement, the result of care or pains; free from failure, error, or defect; exact; as, an accurate calculator; an accurate measure; accurate expression, knowledge, etc."

and the definition of realistic being: "aware or expressing awareness of things as they really are, Of or relating to the representation of objects, actions, or social conditions as they actually are"

The difference that matters to me is this: if the game were completely and absolutely "historically accurate" then it would basically be a situation where things would always play out exactly the same every time, just as they had happened in history.. a game that is "historically realistic" has the possibility of following the same scenario as history actually played out.. it also allows believable what-if possibilities.

i am not nit-picking here simply for the fun of it.

it is important that we as the players feel that what we do makes a difference. that's the whole point of this style of game.. ..what would have happened if I was in control of Texas? And more importantly, how much can i change the course of history?

I think you have hit the nail on the head. We're looking for realism in the long 19th Century context, not accuracy. The ACW need not start in the spring of 1861. It should however, be fought unless the US player does something dramatically quasihistorical to prevent it. The wars of Italian and German unification ought to happen as does the dismantling of the Ottoman empire in the Balkans.

But I will be disappointed in mid 19th century Europe degenerates in the 15th century of EU2.

What is important is that the link between policy and public opinion becomes solid. This is the Age of Nationalism and Liberalism, of great passions and the belief in the inevitability of progess.

In fact, I believe that accumulated prestige rather than territory should be the major component of the VP score. While I know that WC with Liberia must be an option, I also believe that it should be possible for Switzerland to act historically and still win the game on points.

And Johan will of course design the game so that he can create the United States of Texas in the Americas.
 

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Originally posted by Habbaku
I doubt a "simple event" will be able to handle all that happened...I certainly don't want one event to trigger and then one event to end it as that'd be rather anticlimactic. I will, however, concede that WWI will be the most difficult to model.


Well, you won't get everything that happened. Just like you didn't get everything that happened in the Napolonic Wars included in EU2.

Expect that the southern states secede and find themselves in war with the rump US. Probably a bit like the spanish civil war in HoI. If you want anything more detailed, you should get a dedicated civil war game. For example American Civil War by Frank Hunter or Civil War Online They are both free so you got nothing to loose :D



Like many people have said, the diplomatic system will be the biggest challenge apart from the AI. It won't by easy to simulate the European Congress system that led to the division of Africa etc...
 

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Originally posted by BarristerBoy
I'd take on that argument. The ACW's effect was almost exclusively limited to the US, whereas WWI, WWII, and the Napoleonic wars all involved most of the known world, and caused massive shake-ups in the world order once they were completed.

I have to argue against that...Like Turtledove posits, without the U.S. being in power, the Monroe Doctrine becomes practically useless and, thus, South America becomes a European playing ground. Not only this, but you have a divided America that would likely not reconcile and reform, especially in time for WW I. True, America had nothing to do with it in the early stages, but it's definitely debatable that, without America in the war, Germany could've created a decisive attack on the Allied Powers.

Then, of course, you have to examine that, assuming WWI went the same way without America's support of the Allies, Hitler rises to power. With an America divided, there is no Lend-Lease and there is a large chance of British capitulation. Without American bombing raids and Lend-Lease, even the might of the Red Army might not have been able to continue its war effort against a concentrated German/Italian/Eastern European assault.

Even, again, assuming WWII had the Allies win out, you end up getting one superpower : the Soviet Union. Though some (oddly) consider that preferable to America's dominance following the war, you then have no Cold War. You, instead, get practically no unified opposition as the two Americas will likely stalemate each other diplomatically while a withered Europe remains mostly unable to prevent the various Soviet satellites in Eastern Europe (and likely all of Germany) from coming to full swing in support of their larger, Red neighbor.

Though the American Civil War was fought in America, by Americans, it by no means affected only Americans.
 

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Originally posted by Habbaku
Though the American Civil War was fought in America, by Americans, it by no means affected only Americans.

Your argument is essential of the "for want of a nail the kingdom was lost" variety. The argument is that if the ACW had gone differently, then WWI, WWII and other wars would have gone differently as well.

But then wouldn't that still make WWI or WWII the more important war in the last 200 years? There are numerous historical events that, if they had gone differently, might have lead to a very different world today (off the top of my head, if the 1848 revolts ahd succeeded, or the 1905 Russian revolt, or if France had beaten Prussia and Germany was never formed).
 

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Originally posted by BarristerBoy

But then wouldn't that still make WWI or WWII the more important war in the last 200 years? .

The 20th century World War was about who should be the dominant power in Europe. The US intervention was decisive in assuring the historical outcome. A US unable or unwilling to intervene would mean a different outcome, in all probability a German superpower.

The basic thing is the ACW is an important war in the global historical context, not just in the American.
 
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I'm always critical of how important America is in history. Makes me feel kinda bad, now and again.

Anyway...I argued in another thread that America's presence in the First World War might have made the Versailles peace ineffective - or, alternatively, it provided the force that made it just potent enough to incite German irredentism.

That aside, let's say that the second world war does happen, and that the CSA survived the ACW.

First, it may or may not be likely that America does not become an industrial superpower such as it did. In the case that it still does, the US is likely still to supply Britain, just as the CSA is. Even if the CSA doesn't, it's extremely unlikely to be able to supply the Germans, courtesy of the Royal Navy.

Second. If the North is not the industrial power that it was historically, the industrial vacuum would have encouraged the creation of industry elsewhere - likely in Britain and France. The US and CSA are likely to become client states of the industrial powers - effective dominions for commodity export. Alternatively, the USA still does become an industrial power. The CSA is unlikely to, especially as long as it keeps cotton as its staple.

Speaking of cotton, the CSA's cotton exports are likely to tie its foreign policy with Great Britain's so much as the USA's is. Even after cotton becomes less of a concern, Britain - as a world power - is likely to continue to try and be a close friend of the CSA. Amid the rise of Germany, Britain is obliged to search for allies wherever she may find them, possibly even in a conciliatory policy toward both American states. With her economic strength and the strong, long-standing economic bond between Britain and the two American republics, Britain is likely to be a friend more than a rising Germany.

Alright. So, there are several alternatives. If American industry is shipped out to an already industrialized state in the de-industrialization scenario, it is more likely to go to Britain, France, or Japan, who are more likely to use the raw materials that America exports, such as cotton. In the case that it goes to Japan, Britain is more likely to make a conciliatory policy that keeps Japan in her circle, possibly even using Japan as leverage against the American republics to keep them in her sphere against Germany.

In the war, the two republics are economically likely to ship goods to Britain simply because it would be very difficult to ship them to Germany, not to mention the long-standing economic bond between the two. If American industry remains in America, then America will still support the British with her industrial strength regardless of whether she joins. If American industry is shipped out to Japan, France, or Britain, it is likely to strengthen the allied side. If it is shipped to France or Britain, it could likely strengthen them enough early on to prevent the early occupation of France and the Low Countries.

After 1941, when the Americans joined the war, the British had already beat the German air force, bottled the navy, and pinned the army. The Soviets had stopped the Wehrmacht in its tracks. The likelihood of Japan's satisfaction in the Pacific - with the lack of a great American presence there - increases her ability to side with London in a war, as she had in the war. Although it is possible that she may endeavour into the Soviet Union on the Germans' side, I find it more likely that Japan would go into China as she did historically, and focus there where expansion would be easiest, and possibly more profitable. The British would benefit by not having to fight in Burma or the Pacific, and having only to devote forces to North Africa and Europe.
 

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As a "Balance of Power" event, the ACW isn't that vital. Either or both American states will eventually need European trade again. It was simply unavoidable in the 1800s.

But from a MILITARY event point of view, the ACW was vastly important. It proved the ineffectiveness of cavalry against machine guns. It proved that machine guns were a defensive weapon bar none. It proved that the old style "fort and infantry" armies couldn't stand against a modern, mobile force.

It changed doctrines across the world.

And sadly... it coined the term "total war" and the modern incarnation of "scorched earth" warfare.

While this game isn't a civil war simulator, it has to be more than event driven. To put it in perspective: The CSA alone has as much land area as western europe. The north accounts for a similiar size. Saying that the US civil war should be event driven when _250,000_ Americans died in it is like saying that World War I should have a simple "Fight World War? Yes/No" event.

250,000 Americans. There were MILLIONS of troops under arms. It was the first modern war involving army and divisional level command capturing areas the size of western european nations in field battles.

I'd challenge any person to name a war that was more important prior to World War I.
 
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Originally posted by Duuk
I'd challenge any person to name a war that was more important prior to World War I.

Frankly?

I don't know that it revolutionized anyone's doctrines. Yes, the Americans figured out that eighteenth century rank formations were increasingly becoming obsolete. Matter of fact, they were obsolete. They knew that in the American Revolution at Lexington and Concord.

I don't know of any European general staff that made deep studies of the American Civil War. They were more interested in other conflicts where similar experiences were being undertaken, such as in northern Italy, the Crimea, and the Franco-Prussian War. They used trenches in the Crimea at Sebastopol, after all, and between Inkerman and Solferino, you have most of what was done in the American Civil War. British officers trained based on the experience in the Crimea, rather than the Americans' experience in Virginia.

The Americans themselves seemed to forget themselves. The doughboys who showed up in 1918 to fight in Europe had all the heart but found themselves to be hardly as effective as any British or French troop. In the Phillipine guerilla war, we see the American general staff relearning how to fight in trenches, not a half-century _after_ the civil war.

And...any war before World War I, that was more important? The Napoleonic Wars, the Seven Years' War, the Thirty Years' War...all of the above revolutionized combat, each in their own way, and the generals remembered.
 

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Originally posted by Napoleon_VI

And...any war before World War I, that was more important? The Napoleonic Wars, the Seven Years' War, the Thirty Years' War...all of the above revolutionized combat, each in their own way, and the generals remembered.

Bah :) You knew I meant in VIC's time frame :p

I'm just getting hugely afraid reading these forums that the American Civil War won't be that big a deal, or won't be done even moderately well.

It doesn't need to be earth shakingly detailed. This is not a Civil War game. But it needs to be modelled well enough to 1) Occur, and 2) Be resolved without utterly destroying the US most of the time.

I'm not getting much hope so far :(
 
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Originally posted by Duuk
I'm just getting hugely afraid reading these forums that the American Civil War won't be that big a deal, or won't be done even moderately well.

It doesn't need to be earth shakingly detailed. This is not a Civil War game. But it needs to be modelled well enough to 1) Occur, and 2) Be resolved without utterly destroying the US most of the time.

I'm not getting much hope so far :(

Well...it should be important, and it should of course be done well. If the engine and the AI are good, they should be able to shake out exactly how important the ACW should be and how effective it should be. I'm...not terribly optimistic, in light of how unpredictable the Ottomans and Russians are, but...

I imagine that they'll have a fairly comprehensive event system to get to it and make it happen. They like Americans and as a lot we seem to be proud of our little row over here, and...in the past they've done well with the American event packages. I think that the conditions for the Civil War will be fairly easy to model. They can of course be calibrated. So...yeah, I'm perhaps somewhat optimistic.

And your conditions are fair - I'd say that somewhere between half the time and nine-tenths of the time it should come out historically. I'd lean more toward nine-tenths myself but the game is about being interesting and often unpredictable.

Now...in my mind...the Franco-Prussian War and the Crimean War seem to be more far reaching in their consequences than the ACW, in only that the two wars defined how four countries fought wars. Well, not only that, but the political rammifications ran up to WWI.

To America, there's no contest. One couldn't be sure that the average American knew where the Crimea was in the 1850s. But for world history, I think that the ACW was a preview of war that served, at best, only as a lingering example in some forward-thinking commanders' minds, and a tragedy that marks a new age in the American Epic.
 

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On a related note for "challenge of game designers"

Different wars for different places.

30 years AFTER the US used full scale divisional level combat using heavy artillery and machine gun fire...

The Brits were fighting a nasty little skirmish not much different from the American Revolution in South Africa.

How will the game engine model different types of engagements?
 

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Originally posted by Duuk
But from a MILITARY event point of view, the ACW was vastly important. It proved the ineffectiveness of cavalry against machine guns. It proved that machine guns were a defensive weapon bar none. It proved that the old style "fort and infantry" armies couldn't stand against a modern, mobile force.


Perhaps it proved what you say, but in that case the generals didn't belive it. Most armies still had large cavalry forces at the beginning of ww1 (btw: the gatling gun wasn't adopted by the us army before 1866 so apart from a couple of odd privately bought gatlings there were no machineguns in the ACW :D )

And modern mobile forces did not exactly dominate WW1 either...
 

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Originally posted by Napoleon_VI
To America, there's no contest. One couldn't be sure that the average American knew where the Crimea was in the 1850s. But for world history, I think that the ACW was a preview of war that served, at best, only as a lingering example in some forward-thinking commanders' minds, and a tragedy that marks a new age in the American Epic.

Well, the American Civil War was probably not the first modern war like some like to say. It was more a transitional war, where mostly old-fashioned generals like Lee tried to fight a napoleonic war with modern weapons and means of communication. By all means some more modern generals like Grant, Sherman and Forrest did emerge and the use of railroad (for example by Bragg during the invasion of Kentucky and Longstreet before Chickamauga) was innovative, these new technologies weren't utilized fully before the Franco-Prussian war...
 

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Originally posted by Napoleon_VI
To America, there's no contest. One couldn't be sure that the average American knew where the Crimea was in the 1850

Don't think the average european knew that in the 1850's either...

But I sometimes get the feeling that the average american still doesn't know where Crimea is :rolleyes:
 

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The averarge person hardly knew how their own nation looked.
Most people in most nations couldn't read.
There were no education in most nations either.

As for the Gatling gun.
It wasn't adopted as said.
IIRC the south had a few at one of their forts and that was about the use of that.
The cavalry wasn't used in charges against infantry they were used as flanking units.
 

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Originally posted by peo
The averarge person hardly knew how their own nation looked.
Most people in most nations couldn't read.
There were no education in most nations either.


Well, the average american could read and write in this period. This is the reason why there exist so many letters and memoirs written by average soldiers in the ACW. And literacy was on the rise in western europe as well
 
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Functional literacy in Northern and Western Europe were at the same level as today - even in 1850. People that actually needed to read and write could and did.

The major reason that this corner of the world became the leader in the industrial revoltionwas that it had a, in comparatrive terms, well-educated population at the start of the period.

In game terms this must translate into "investments" in education with a direct effect on both innovation and the speed of industrializartion - as well as in terms of gaining prestige.
 

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Originally posted by peo

The cavalry wasn't used in charges against infantry they were used as flanking units.


The cavalry were mostly used for raiding and scouting. The terrain in north america wasn't suited for european cavalry tactics. There were a lot of forest on the ACW battlefields - and not the open plains of europe were cavalry could charge home. And rifles with minie bullets also made such tactics quite suicidal (however there were successful charges by cavalry by the austrians at Sadowa and prussians during the franco prussian war).

Some info about ACW cavalry action here:

http://www.civilwarhome.com/cavalrybattles.htm

But the most interesting use of cavalry during ACW was probably made by Nathan Bedford Forrest who used them as mounted infantry. He wasn't exactly the first who did that, but he did it with a flair seldom surpassed...
 

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Originally posted by Duuk
Bah :) You knew I meant in VIC's time frame :p

I'm just getting hugely afraid reading these forums that the American Civil War won't be that big a deal, or won't be done even moderately well.

It doesn't need to be earth shakingly detailed. This is not a Civil War game. But it needs to be modelled well enough to 1) Occur, and 2) Be resolved without utterly destroying the US most of the time.

I'm not getting much hope so far :(


Reminds me of the complaints folks had about the American Revolutionary war in EU2.:)
 

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Originally posted by Frodon
Don't think the average european knew that in the 1850's either...

But I sometimes get the feeling that the average american still doesn't know where Crimea is :rolleyes:

Unfortunately, I highly doubt the majority of Americans know that. Then again, I also wonder at the number of, say, Polish or German citizens that know where the Rockies are. The Bayou? Great Lakes?

Citizens knowing lots about local or at least continental geography is to be expected. Knowing geography about other countries is, alas, barely encouraged here... :(

How is it in your section of Europe, Frodon?