Game design suggestion to help new players: focus tree help

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bbasgen

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I don't play HOI4 as much as I did its predecessors. I haven't figured out why, but it has something to do with a feeling that the gameplay isn't "mine"; e.g. my ability to make unique setups feels more limited. As an occasional player, it also means I have the challenge of figuring out how to make WW2 go somewhat historically.

First, a game option for help tips. With help on, in the national focus tree, you highlight historical national focus choices for the country being played based on the current date. This solves the problem that, in my current Germany game, I found myself in the middle of 1940 and still unprepared for Danzig. Put another way, it would help to know: in ~4 years of build up, which national focuses do I need to take to get Danzig in the fall of 1939, and to what degree can I choose some of my own?

Some national focuses aren't really choices, they are more like automatic steps, the only question is when. Anschluss is an easy example. Thus, if we consider all the "automatic" focuses one should take before the war, how many are truly a player's choice (e.g. spending time going on Plan Z before the war instead of doing something else). Thus, instead of it appearing that I have totally free choice, a way of saying: here is your actual wiggle room. I don't intend to trigger debate about historical versus ahistorical gameplay. Instead, I think folks need help either (a) how to go about a historical game and what variables exist there OR (b) when playing ahistorically, have a good sense for how much you are off path (e.g. if a new player spent all their time on the equivalent of infrastructure focuses, when the war starts the game will end up being pretty silly). Obviously, if someone has played a particular country many times, they will figure all this out, hence my suggestion is for new or occasional players like me.

Second, some help with division templates and division building would be nice. I've played enough of HOI4 to have a sense for how to do these things, but every time I come back to the game I find I need to do a lot of forum searching and lookup to understand (a) what is a workable template (based on the current patch level!), since the starting templates are problematic; (b) what is a reasonably balanced division deployment scheme to ensure you have enough forces in time for war. I'm not asking that the game help players identify the perfect setup, but I do think the game needs to say something like: Here are ten viable ways to build an infantry division, and here is why you would want to do each one. Similarly, some level of intelligence about force comparison based on intelligence would be wonderful, to get a sense of how you compare in your build up process.

One last thought. We are able to create variants of ships, tanks, and aircraft, which is a great idea. But, once you create the variant, it becomes a bit lost in the game. I enjoy all WW2 kit generally, and like the idea of being able to focus a unit in a certain way for a given time period. Consider the classic tank example: the T-34 (76mm) versus the Panzer III (37 mm or 50mm). The game allows modifications to the point where a Panzer III could start with a bigger main armament (I'd love to see the historical analogues, but maybe that is asking too much). What we need, however, is more visibility on how that +1 main armament change worked out in gameplay. Did my T-34's, assuming I've worked out command/organization problems, decimate the opposing Panzers as I would expect in 1941 or did the AI build Panzers with better Armor or a bigger main gun? Currently, there is no way to really know how your equipment is doing on the battlefield beyond something basically beating the other guys or not, which takes a bit of the fun out of modifying the equipment in the first place.

I hope something in here is helpful and worthy of consideration!
 
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DicRoNero

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One last thought. We are able to create variants of ships, tanks, and aircraft, which is a great idea. But, once you create the variant, it becomes a bit lost in the game. I enjoy all WW2 kit generally, and like the idea of being able to focus a unit in a certain way for a given time period. Consider the classic tank example: the T-34 (76mm) versus the Panzer III (37 mm or 50mm). The game allows modifications to the point where a Panzer III could start with a bigger main armament (I'd love to see the historical analogues, but maybe that is asking too much). What we need, however, is more visibility on how that +1 main armament change worked out in gameplay. Did my T-34's, assuming I've worked out command/organization problems, decimate the opposing Panzers as I would expect in 1941 or did the AI build Panzers with better Armor or a bigger main gun? Currently, there is no way to really know how your equipment is doing on the battlefield beyond something basically beating the other guys or not, which takes a bit of the fun out of modifying the equipment in the first place.
These concerns on how individual tanks fare against each other are (were) grossly overrated IRL, as it was the whole nation's military machine fighting, and vast majority of tanks were destroyed by other means and not the tanks of the enemy. As one good publicist puts it, if there happen to be 2 purely tank armadas shooting each other then either one of the commanders is stupid or they are stupid both.

It's even more fun than that, since one-on-one a T-34 might be beating PzIII, but platoon-on-platoon Pz's will smash T-34's for the latter lacking radios. When radios are equilized, whatever another thing comes next attributing to better coordination and so it goes on and on.

In HoI4 this is largely irrelevant, since tanks are mere equipment, which you produce to boost your unit stats, and since those stats are averaged across the unit w/e you gain by +1 gun can be offset by mud in your previous province en route having had caused extra equipment attrition and lowering stats this way. The strength of the enemy is never a constant value either, so I don't seem to get what exactly you're looking for. (For sheer synthetic tests you can always set up some environment using console commands).
 
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walt526

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Whenever I play a new focus tree (either a new country or a mod), I'll spend a good 10-15 minutes studying it before the game starts to figure out what I want to prioritize and where the key decision nodes are. I don't map it out exactly (although I sometimes take notes on my iPad), but I have a pretty good idea of when I want to complete the key focuses, particularly the ones that might start WW2 (or start the timer on when WW2 should start). If I were to do it entirely ad hoc, then I'd risk going down rabbit holes (e.g., Germany's naval production) and not complete the more critical focuses in an optimal timeframe.
 
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bbasgen

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It's even more fun than that, since one-on-one a T-34 might be beating PzIII, but platoon-on-platoon Pz's will smash T-34's for the latter lacking radios.

You must not be a fan of flag signals? ;) It is pretty amazing to think STAVKA thought that was a good idea! Of course you make fair points that commanders matter and because of design defects (radios, lack of a moving turret platform, multiple duties of the commander, and lack of periscopes) the T-34 was very challenging to command. I think it is fair to say that all these things matter. The 37 and 50mm cannons were almost useless against the T-34 (never mind the KV-1), and this necessitated a significant change by the Germans: despite tanks that were easier to command and coordinate, a new design was necessary. Thus, I'm saying I think it is fun that the game allows us to get into equipment, and I think it would add fun if the game provided better feedback about how those variants are performing in order to lead a player to make changes. Right now it feels a bit automatic and unattended.
 
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CrasherZZ

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I've been playing HOI4 for only a few months now so most focus trees are still a mystery to me. It would be nice to have a little narrative for every country's focus tree to clarify the meaning of the various paths and choices. The brief explanations that are there now are sometimes confusing when there are multiple results and conditions and paths. It would be a lot more work for Paradox but almost anything that improves user-friendliness can be a lot more work.
 
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Wenla

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As a new player I have to 'read' every focus path from the beginning to the end (and/or several ones) just to understand where it (may) lead my game and select 'my path after this exercise...
 

HugsAndSnuggles

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It is pretty amazing to think STAVKA thought that was a good idea!
It's not that they thought it a good idea, it was better than nothing: USSR always had problems with mass-producing electronic equipment; nothing really changed to date.
 
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billcorr

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Perhaps the Paradox community outreach director for HoI4 will actively solicit feedback from new players on how to make the game more friendly to newcomers.

The OP raises several good points.

Posts like these can help make the game more accessible to the public.

And increase sales.

And earn the HoI4 community director that extra cash bonus!

(who is HoI4's community liaison?)
 
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billcorr

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(who is HoI4's community liaison?)

It appears that in April, 2020, BjornB was a (the?) community manager for HoI4.

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Reaching out to new players and obtaining their feedback might (or might not...who knows?) help improve the "new gamer appeal" of HoI4.
 
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Happy Trigger

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You must not be a fan of flag signals? ;) It is pretty amazing to think STAVKA thought that was a good idea! Of course you make fair points that commanders matter and because of design defects (radios, lack of a moving turret platform, multiple duties of the commander, and lack of periscopes) the T-34 was very challenging to command. I think it is fair to say that all these things matter. The 37 and 50mm cannons were almost useless against the T-34 (never mind the KV-1), and this necessitated a significant change by the Germans: despite tanks that were easier to command and coordinate, a new design was necessary. Thus, I'm saying I think it is fun that the game allows us to get into equipment, and I think it would add fun if the game provided better feedback about how those variants are performing in order to lead a player to make changes. Right now it feels a bit automatic and unattended.
Part of that lack of feedback is because EXP is to easy and accessible to get. EXP should take a long time to accumulate, so divisions and designs would change along the war, not immediately. Not only that, but new tech should come with a EXP requirement (which should increase along the time). So, new tech would come more slowly into the battlefield, giving more nuance to the game. It creeps me out, how people get Phanters and ISs in early 1940s.
 
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bbasgen

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Not only that, but new tech should come with a EXP requirement (which should increase along the time). So, new tech would come more slowly into the battlefield, giving more nuance to the game.

I love this suggestion! Tech has always been a tough challenge in the series: I think every game has made it better, but it still isn't quite there. HoI4 is pretty close to this already as experience sometimes can jump you ahead, but a bit more work would be better.

If we flesh it out further. Both the Germans and Soviets developed ideas from the Spanish Civil War, for example when the T-26 dominated Panzer I's. History is full of nuance: the Germans and Soviets were already working on more advanced designs, but the role of field results was significant and influential. To get that in game, instead of focus bonuses, you have to send at least one existing tank division into the war and do some amount of fighting (perhaps X hours of battle). That fighting gives you armor specific experience (yes, some version of the HoI3 system), which gives the large bonus to medium tank research.

The ideal is that we are able to see when two adversaries fight in a particular way in game, they both get boosts to research in that field. Thus, Soviets vs. Germans give each other huge tank bonuses for example, creating an escalating race of back and forth. To reference an earlier idea, if we see that one side is wining in the field because of a tank advantage, the other side gets a boost to their tank research. It would be really cool, for example, if one side struggled to break hardened positions, the research boost would be to heavy tanks; or if loosing tank to tank battles, a bonus for tank destroyers, etc. Similarly this dynamic would be fun to see with the British and U-boats; one side developing better destroyers, sonar and air recon, the other trying to retain an advantage with torpedoes, snorkels, etc. The game has these basic components already, so this is well within reach. The vault forward is about (a) better player feedback on what is crushing it in the field versus what is being countered well (e.g. wouldn't it be compelling to see, in game, the so-called first and second uboat "happy time"). (b) Better visibility of what is happening will allow for responsiveness to the situation in the field. It would be great when a *lack* of responsiveness to changing conditions, for example, can become a total landslide. A crushing defeat, as in the 1943 uboat situation where the Allies essentially beat out the Germans in just about every category and established complete domination.
 
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CrasherZZ

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It would be a far more appropriate use of XP than for Division Design, as discussed here:
 
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With help on, in the national focus tree, you highlight historical national focus choices for the country being played based on the current date.
This would be helpful for new players (or after a new DLC). But highlighting the historical path should be a game rule (switch on/off).

It appears that in April, 2020, BjornB was a (the?) community manager for HoI4.
Dear @BjornB , are you still a community manager?
 
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