Game Design Flaw - CS and Westernization

[Sir-Rogers]

So I just attemped the Najd achievement.

By the time I can westernize I got about 100 provinces. Westernization! Yes I thought, that's already about 150 years into the game I think, getting a stable and large nation wasn't easy.

Westernization was going smooth until rebels started spawning, and due to the recent changes that meant they started taking provinces in 30day intervals, laying waste to my westernization process. I had to concede to the rebels.

Even if I would've had the army to match them, the instantwin sieges on non-fort provinces is already a huge setback.

With 5 rebels spawning at the same time, sized at 12 units, removing 100 points per province that can reduce your westernization process from 50% to 0% within 2 months. I only had the means to maintain a single army of around 20-24units, and we cant build forts on every single province, that's not economically viable.

Basically that means for larger nations westernization is broken now with CS? I had to abort and didn't even want to attempt it a second time.

 

[Montem]

Rebels are definitely an issue I've seen in CS in terms of Separatists occupying non-fortified provinces and giving +15yrs of Separatism, or issues like this. I think that the occupation effects should only apply when a fort is taken.

 

[s1234567890m]

. I think that the occupation effects should only apply when a fort is taken.

According to the dev's that the affects should only kick in when the fort is taken.

 

[RadRussian]

It could be balanced by making it necessary for rebels to occupy the fort in the ZOC of provinces to convert religion, add nationalism, etc.

 

[TheGrouch91]

The insta-capture seemed like a bug to me. At least I hope it is. Every rebel so far that spawned via an event instantly captured a non-fort province even when I had an army there. Which is just silly.

 

[FloatingOrb]

Ok here is how rebels work now.

They have the same siege timing as regular armies. Its about a month for non fortified countries if I remember correctly, havent payed attention to it.
If the province is in a zone of control of a fort, no negative effects come from the occupation until fort falls.

Some types of rebels instantly capture the provinces they spawn on. i dont remember the list, but its been that way ever since I can remember. Maybe vanilla.

occupation no longer halts coring/conversion/building construction. Unless perhaps its a reconquest, havent checked that out.

There is a problem where rebel doomstacks congregate on forts. Not sure if thats intended or not. I hope it isnt because it made my horde games hell until I was lucky enough to get a start with NO REBELLIONS until I westernized.

 

[Styliaan]

Same deal with insta captures, when you know theyre coming you can plan(small rebel amoutns 2-3 provinces) But ive had multiple events(spanish civil) where they spawn in random locations.
Also had rebels spawn on Forts and instacap the fort as they spawn. Even when i had troops on them, fort/province instant captured and the rebels fighting my army, the rebels with a negative modifier. Fort is at max garrison/population for the rebels afterwards.

 

[kitemasaki]

There is nothing wrong with how this is working. The OP doesn't understand how to effectively utilize the new fort mechanic. That is the issue. Westernization rebels (or any rebels) do not cause any effect until they take a province that is outside of a fort's zone of control or if they manage to take a fort. If you have 100 development, you can afford to have forts manned at all times, especially when you know rebels may appear. Having your forts spaced out so they cover all provinces is key to the new mechanic and gives your nation time to route rebellions or stall invaders.

I understand some players may not agree with the new fort mechanic, that is in another thread, but the OP just is currently playing the game wrong. It is just taking some players a bit of time to get used to the change and what they used to do. Either take my advice or just continue to fail...it isn't going to change because the design *is* working.

 

[beckermt]

Westernization rebels (or any rebels) do not cause any effect until they take a province that is outside of a fort's zone of control or if they manage to take a fort.

Emphasis mine.
Well, that's really interesting actually. I had planned on leaving some parts of my country (internally) undefended... Now maybe that's a bad idea.

I like the new system, but there's sort of a feeling of playing a brand new Paradox game, because there are so many mechanics that are COMPLETLEY mysterious. Like when do rebels apply their modifiers to a province...?

:-/

 

[Magean]

The insta-capture seemed like a bug to me. At least I hope it is. Every rebel so far that spawned via an event instantly captured a non-fort province even when I had an army there. Which is just silly.

I had the same happening before 1.12. The Aztec Rebellious Altepetl event spawned nationalists that immediately took control of the province, even if an army was there.

Back to the OP, the devs said at some point that in the future balance patch, the negative effects of rebels occupying a province would only be generated if a fort falls.

 

[DicRoNero]

I understand some players may not agree with the new fort mechanic, that is in another thread, but the OP just is currently playing the game wrong. It is just taking some players a bit of time to get used to the change and what they used to do. Either take my advice or just continue to fail...it isn't going to change because the design *is* working.

The good thing about this new mechanics is that quite often you do want the rebels to take over. And manual control we now have over forts is great for that. So if made to choose between the two, I'd pick the current version.

 

[bbqftw]

There is nothing wrong with how this is working. The OP doesn't understand how to effectively utilize the new fort mechanic. That is the issue. Westernization rebels (or any rebels) do not cause any effect until they take a province that is outside of a fort's zone of control or if they manage to take a fort. If you have 100 development, you can afford to have forts manned at all times, especially when you know rebels may appear. Having your forts spaced out so they cover all provinces is key to the new mechanic and gives your nation time to route rebellions or stall invaders.

I understand some players may not agree with the new fort mechanic, that is in another thread, but the OP just is currently playing the game wrong. It is just taking some players a bit of time to get used to the change and what they used to do. Either take my advice or just continue to fail...it isn't going to change because the design *is* working.

yep, it seems like if you're going to skimp on forts, you better make sure that the places you don't fortify are not going to revolt on you.

 

[AlphaSonic]

In my games when rebels spawn in a province without a fort (but in a ZoC fort) they go directly to the fort to try to conquer it. If you have provinces which spawn rebels without a fort or those provinces aren't inside a ZoC fort it's your fault.

 

[TheGrouch91]

In my games when rebels spawn in a province without a fort (but in a ZoC fort) they go directly to the fort to try to conquer it. If you have provinces which spawn rebels without a fort or those provinces aren't inside a ZoC fort it's your fault.

They still should not insta capture the province when you have an army parked there.

 

[AlphaSonic]

But in my opinion that's WAI. If you don't fortify a zone which can be susceptible of rebellion and there aren't forts or army near there trying to stop those rebellions why shouldn't you be punished?

Remember I'm always talking about provinces without fort and which are protected by ZoC fort.

 

[Aries666]

If you had planned for westernisation properly you wouldnt even get any rebels.

 

[Alliegorical]

Rebel-occupied provinces adjacent to forts will not trigger the on-siege-won effect until the fort itself is taken. If you have an adequate fort system, rebels are no more a threat than they were in 1.11.

 

[TheGrouch91]

But in my opinion that's WAI. If you don't fortify a zone which can be susceptible of rebellion and there aren't forts or army near there trying to stop those rebellions why shouldn't you be punished?

Remember I'm always talking about provinces without fort and which are protected by ZoC fort.

They spawn on top of an army and still capture the province instantly and you think that its WAI? That is just nonsense.

 

[Alliegorical]

They spawn on top of an army and still capture the province instantly and you think that its WAI? That is just nonsense.

If there's no fort in the province, it makes sense to me: the rebel army springs forth because the province itself is in rebellion. That means that the province itself should start rebel-occupied, unless you own a fort there.

If you don't want to suffer the on-siege-won effect, either build a fort next to it/on it, or use harsh treatment.

 

[s1234567890m]

Tbh it's probably a remnant of previous rebel buffs interacting oddly with the occupation changes.