Galactic Wonders Ascension Perk offers too much

[Badesumofu]

Keep in mind you can only build them one at a time, so building all the new structures is time that you aren't building Ring Worlds. Adding a bunch more structures to it doesn't actually make that much more powerful, so much as makes it more flexible and useful in more situations

 

[Secret Master]

For people who disagree with splitting up "Galactic Wonders," is there a point at which you would consider splitting it up? 10 mega structures? 20?

I'd consider splitting it up if it was overpowered.

As it stands now, winning does not require any galactic wonders at all. They require so many resources and so much time that in the time it takes to pay off a ring world, you might as well conquer the rest of the galaxy.

 

[El Janitor Frank]

I think the perk just does too much to the point where it shouldn't be an ascension perk. Yes, you don't need to build all of them, and you need to put resources into them all and they don't give you immediate benefits. But at the same time, its just a perk that opens up a building option for virtually every play style, especially with this new expansion adding even more.

I would rather the Master Builders give you an even bigger buff to constructing them and have the regular mega-structures just gated by late-game techs. Even if you unlock all of them through one tech, or a group of them, or one at a time. The reason is simply because while the perk might not be overpowered, if every single empire in the game picks it every single time, then why is it even an ascension perk? Might as well unlock it for everyone and remove one of the ascension perk slots. Even if you only use the Ring Worlds, and your neighbor only wanted to build Dyson Spheres, why must that be gated behind the same perk for both of you?

 

[Sifer2]

The problem here is inconsistency in design of Ascension perks. Most of them just give you some unusually powerful bonus to your Empire. A few provide different end game flavor paths for your Empire. Then a few of them unlock end game technologies which is what the mega structure one does. Truthfully Mega Structures should just be late game techs you research. I'm not sure what making them an Ascension perk is meant to do. Same with the others that unlock stuff like Habitat's, Colossus, Machine Worlds, and such. All this stuff seems like it should just be rare late game Technologies with a higher chance of appearing if your government is the type to use it. People would probably respond to me on this saying it's giving away the good stuff for free. But it would actually be the opposite. Since having to research end game rare techs of soon to be nearly 10 kinds of Mega Structures would be harder than taking one Ascension perk.

 

[Bankipriel]

To echo what others have said: you can only build 1 Mega-structure at a time. If you you are building mega-structures for anything other than end-game crits and giggles, then you are almost always taking Voidborne & Master Builders. So, 3 AP's for the option to build mega-structures, which carry a huge cost in time and resources. This is a huge cost for delayed rewards. Making access to specific structures would be a mistake. And, there would be absolutely no "good" way to split them, because no matter how they were grouped, there would be players whose 1st & 2nd choice mega-structures to build would be in separate perks, meaning some (if not many) players would be looking at spending their first 4 ascension perks toward mega-structures. As long as building mechanics remain as they are the "mega-structures" perk should unlock all current & future projects.

 

[TheDungen]

I would probably move them to techs and perhaps have Galactic wonders significantly increase the chance that you get these techs as options.

 

[wundergoat]

My ideal:

Megastructures are individual techs opened up by mega engineering.

Galactic Wonders lets you build 2+ megastructures at a time and reduces cost by 10-20%

Everyone can build megastructures late game, but a megastructure focused empire would go voidborne->master builders->galactic wonders as a sort of megastructure ascension path. They'd have faster build speed and more reliable access to the techs on top of boosted habitats, which should be really good for a tall build.

 

[Me_]

I can see one advantage of spreading the megastructures around - more empires would have at least one, while at the moment there is usually just one, at most two empires with any in a typical game.

 

[pryr]

It is not overpowered. At first, as it was said, in order to truly use mega-structures you need to spend three perks already, otherwise you will get them only in endgame and they will just no matter at this point. At second, you still have one-construction-per-time limit, so in usual game it will be hard to get benefits from all of them even if you trying hard. So you still have to choose which mega-structures you want to use in your game. And at third, mega-structures are not mandatory. For wide warmongering empires they have a little impact and smaller perks with empire-wide effects can be more preferable (like Technological Ascendancy, Interstellar Dominion, Executive Vigor, World Shaper, new Xeno-Compability and probably new City Worlds ).

 

[The Kombinator]

The problem with it, that you can only build one galactic wonder at a time. If you could build multiple, then we could argue whether it is too strong or not. A second problem is that those stuff take a lot of time, and minerals. The time factor makes them pretty much useless for any fanatic conqueror. By the time you can actually finish one game is practically over. Unless if you make the game intentionally long.

 

[Etrutian]

My knee jerk reaction is to hate this idea.

But its actually pretty reasonable. Tie mega structures to ascension perks. It would heavily increase the value of some of the lesser used perks and it makes thematic sense. Ascension perks are essentially cultural focuses, and when ones empire becomes scientifically advanced enough, they can turn their cultural focus into a grand engineering project. So tie the structures to Mega-Engineering, and let eet go.

 

[Kayden_II]

The whole a-perk-system isn't that well thought out ...

01. It's the only real possibility to define your empire, due to limited or mutually exclusive a-perks ...
(Limited or mutually exclusive things have to expanded into the technology-/ + tradition-system as well) ...

02. If you take the term "ascension-perk" literally then it makes only sense to choose among the biological / synthetic / psionic ascension-paths ...
(The bulk of the so called "ascension-perks" rather fits into the technology-/ or tradition-system) ...

03. An a-perk has to be a game-changer, but I've serious problems to "waste" an a-perk for something like "A few more defence-stations and a bit better star-bases" ("Eternal Vigilance") or "A few more star-bases" ("Grasp the Void") or "A bit more sensor-range and the insurance, that my opponents can't study my wrecks, altough and in reference to my 01. point, each empire will get all the (same) technologies, anyways" ("Enigmatic Engineering") or "A bit more and a bit better leaders" ("Transcendent Learning") or "A bit fewer influence-costs in regards to this 1-time-project to integrate my vassals into my empire" ("Shared Destiny") or "An other bombardement-stance I don't really care" ("Nihilistic Acquisition") or "A bit fewer influence-costs to grab and claim star-systems" ("Interstellar Dominion") or "A few more core-star-systems" ("Imperial Prerogative") or "A bit longer edict-duration, so that I spare a bit more edict-influence-costs" ("Executive Vigor") or "A super-special edict, which I have to enact multiple times and on all of my worlds separately, ..., unfortunately" ("Consecrated Worlds") ...
("Galactic Wonders" is a game-changer - Yeah and this should be the case - It's only this rather arbitrary circumstance, that you can't build several megastructures at the same time, which makes this "not" that "good").

Edit:
Most of the ###### a-perks (like most of the ones of my 03. point) have also the problem, that they don't scale, which makes them more and more useless in the progress of a game.

 

[Matoro_TBS]

Actually OP:s suggestion is kind of interesting. Instead of making multiple different perks which ONLY give access to certain megastructures (as Ringworlds were in the past), spreading megastructures over multiple perks that do also some other stuff would be... certainly interesting. It would make lesser picked stuff like those generic +10% unity, +10% tech speed etc much more interesting, and it would also give you an ability to unlock some megastructures VERY early. For example, taking Tech Ascendancy as your first perk and building first level of Science Nexus in 2260s would be an incredible buff for whole game. Now you'll get its buffs only after you've basically researched most of important stuff anyway.
In this system you'd have not a single one perk that would be "useless" if you didn't build the megastructure - the megastructures would always be an extra to an existing buff that comes with the perk. It would also force you to make more choices about your perks instead of just picking Galactic Wonders every single time. Another bonus is that AI would probably build them more, since they'd be unlocked earlier.

However this will probably not happen, and it's because "basic" ascension perks are free but megastructures are Utopia-locked. I doubt Paradox would make free versions and Utopia versions of the basic ascension perks.

 

[TheDungen]

Actually OP:s suggestion is kind of interesting. Instead of making multiple different perks which ONLY give access to certain megastructures (as Ringworlds were in the past), spreading megastructures over multiple perks that do also some other stuff would be... certainly interesting. It would make lesser picked stuff like those generic +10% unity, +10% tech speed etc much more interesting, and it would also give you an ability to unlock some megastructures VERY early. For example, taking Tech Ascendancy as your first perk and building first level of Science Nexus in 2260s would be an incredible buff for whole game. Now you'll get its buffs only after you've basically researched most of important stuff anyway.
In this system you'd have not a single one perk that would be "useless" if you didn't build the megastructure - the megastructures would always be an extra to an existing buff that comes with the perk. It would also force you to make more choices about your perks instead of just picking Galactic Wonders every single time. Another bonus is that AI would probably build them more, since they'd be unlocked earlier.

However this will probably not happen, and it's because "basic" ascension perks are free but megastructures are Utopia-locked. I doubt Paradox would make free versions and Utopia versions of the basic ascension perks.

You mean some of the previous ascension perk gets mega structures assigned to them, and instead of these requiring x number of ascension perks before being picked they have effect that are only unlocked after you have chosen a certain number of ascension perks.
Well it is certainly a better solution than to back-load the system even more with a whole slew of new ascensions that require a certain number of perks before you can pick them.

 

[Aquilegia]

For people who disagree with splitting up "Galactic Wonders," is there a point at which you would consider splitting it up? 10 mega structures? 20? I'm just curious.
There is currently an energy mega structure, a mineral mega structure, there could easily be a food mega structure, there's now a unity mega structure... There could be a mega structure for every single resource and then some. I'm just wondering if you would ever consider splitting Galactic Wonders up?

The argument of "you still have to pay for the mega structures," is not invalid from a balance perspective. Personally I don't subscribe to the balance perspective. I don't think many paradox games are about balance but more about viability. It's true that you still have to pay for and wait for the mega structures but I don't really think that's much of an issue for people who pick that perk. I know whenever I pick Galactic Wonders, I intend to build all of them. The only issue is the order I build them in.

As for "they take so long to build you won't be able to build them all anyway" then why not split them up? I think making specific mega structures unique depending on the ascension perks you select is more interesting then every human player always picking the same two ascension perks.

I understand the Pokemon desire of "gotta catch em all" but perhaps it would be better if the mega structures were split up to a degree that it was impossible (unless someone ONLY went for mega structures) to be able to build them all.

Since megastructures take so massively long to build I rarely build more than 2 in a game. I see no reason to split them up no matter how many new megastructures we get, since it only gives frustration and UI clutter in more ascension perks.

It would feel like splitting up genetical engineering, since that too gives a lot of choices in one perk for different traits you could apply..

People take the perk because megastructures are cool. Not necessarily because it's optimal. Instead of wanting to create extra annoyances for megastructures, either make other perks also give cool things, or accept that some people will take perks for flavour and some people will take other perks for gameplay optimalisation (although a few of the boring perks are a bit underpowered).

 

[BrokenSky]

Isn't that a bit much for one ascension perk?

Perhaps Galactic Wonders should be broken down and split between existing ascension perks.
[...]

Ring Worlds, Dyson Sphere, Matter Decompressor and Interstellar Assembly, I don't think could really go with an existing ascension perks but I'm sure something could be put together.

What do you guys think? Is Galactic Wonders too powerful?

While I like the idea of buffing other APs which otherwise give passive bonuses by also giving them a wonder, I don't really feel the Perk itself is too strong?

But what about if most of these wonders were also unlockable via the other perks, so you could build the Science Nexus with either the Wonder Perk or the Science Perk?
Or alternatively some of these wonders could require both, so Galatic Wonders might unlock the Ringworld, then also having other Perks would unlock other specific wonders?

Honestly I don't know myself, but I think it's probably something worth giving some thought to?

 

[Tyrannical Prince]

I'd consider splitting it up if it was overpowered.

As it stands now, winning does not require any galactic wonders at all. They require so many resources and so much time that in the time it takes to pay off a ring world, you might as well conquer the rest of the galaxy.

For the record I never argued that Galactic Wonders was overpowered or imbalanced. I simply argued that having so much under one perk makes it silly not to get it. Does the +10% Unity perk really compare to getting access to 8 mega structures?
The new Arcology perk seems really cool but it's 1/8 as cool as getting access to 8 mega structures from 1 perk.

Actually OP:s suggestion is kind of interesting. Instead of making multiple different perks which ONLY give access to certain megastructures (as Ringworlds were in the past), spreading megastructures over multiple perks that do also some other stuff would be... certainly interesting. It would make lesser picked stuff like those generic +10% unity, +10% tech speed etc much more interesting, and it would also give you an ability to unlock some megastructures VERY early. For example, taking Tech Ascendancy as your first perk and building first level of Science Nexus in 2260s would be an incredible buff for whole game. Now you'll get its buffs only after you've basically researched most of important stuff anyway.
In this system you'd have not a single one perk that would be "useless" if you didn't build the megastructure - the megastructures would always be an extra to an existing buff that comes with the perk. It would also force you to make more choices about your perks instead of just picking Galactic Wonders every single time. Another bonus is that AI would probably build them more, since they'd be unlocked earlier.

However this will probably not happen, and it's because "basic" ascension perks are free but megastructures are Utopia-locked. I doubt Paradox would make free versions and Utopia versions of the basic ascension perks.

My thoughts exactly. Currently there is a whole slew of ascension perks that only give a stat boost. They're boring. Some can be useful but they're still boring. Having 8 mega structures under one ascension perk makes it the most interesting park by far. I think splitting up the mega structures between existing and new ascension perks makes them more interesting, more viable and more competitive.

You're probably right though that paradox probably wouldn't do that. But I wouldn't think it'd be hard. Wouldn't it basically just be an if statement?

Since megastructures take so massively long to build I rarely build more than 2 in a game. I see no reason to split them up no matter how many new megastructures we get, since it only gives frustration and UI clutter in more ascension perks.

It would feel like splitting up genetical engineering, since that too gives a lot of choices in one perk for different traits you could apply..

What's the point of having 8 mega structures under one ascension perk when you are likely never to build more than 2? It seems like a waste to me.
I think buffing a few of the more boring ascension perks while adding a few more makes the most sense.

"Technological Ascendancy" could give +10% research and access to the Science Nexus
"Enigmatic Engineering" could give +2 sensor range and prevents your tech from being reverse engineered and access to the Sentry Array
"One Vision" could give +10% Unity, +50% governing ethics attraction and access to the Mega Art Installation
"Galactic Force Projection" could give +20 Fleet Limit, +80 Naval Capacity and access to the Strategic Coordination Center

That leaves 4 more for Ring worlds, the Dyson Sphere, the Matter Decompressor and the Interstellar Assembly.

 

[WhiteKyubey]

Maybe something like this:
1) all galactic wonders megastructures are locked behind rare techs
2) after you take one tech, the chance to get second one is lowered to almost zero, and chance to get the 3 is zero
(techs can be linked to ethics - like new megastarbase is more likely to come to miltarist empire)
3) galactic wonders perk gives you all techs - so you can:
a) start building much faster, while other empires are waiting for techs and wasting time to study them
b) build any megastructure you want now, instead of hoping for correct tech to show up
c) build more then 2 types of megastructures if you want to have some fun in super late game

In this case if the megastructures are not your focus, you can skip the perk and still get some of them, but if you want to have them sooner, if you want them to be more reliable - then you take the perk.

 

[TheDungen]

Since megastructures take so massively long to build I rarely build more than 2 in a game. I see no reason to split them up no matter how many new megastructures we get, since it only gives frustration and UI clutter in more ascension perks.

It would feel like splitting up genetical engineering, since that too gives a lot of choices in one perk for different traits you could apply..

People take the perk because megastructures are cool. Not necessarily because it's optimal. Instead of wanting to create extra annoyances for megastructures, either make other perks also give cool things, or accept that some people will take perks for flavour and some people will take other perks for gameplay optimalisation (although a few of the boring perks are a bit underpowered).

Well splitting it up between many of the more uninteresting current ones could be an interesting choice. Essentially while you may not unlock the full potential of a ascension perk right away there would be no boring choices.
In fact give every ascension perk 7 levels, let's call it your empires ascension level, the ascension level is the number of ascension perks you have unlocked, and each ascension level powers up all taken ascension perks.
The buffs don't even have to be better than today, they should just come in smaller increments over time instead of there being a bunch of uninteresting ones in the beginning that you take to get to the interesting ones the uninteresting ones become more interesting as you progress.

 

[Dr. B]

Very late game rewards, and delayed because only one at a time. By the time you get around to build, you have probably won or lost.