Galactic Wonders Ascension Perk offers too much

[Tyrannical Prince]

Am I the only one who thinks Galactic Wonders will offer too much?

In the current game Galactic Wonders gives you;
Ring Worlds
Dyson Sphere
Science Nexus
Sentry Array

Which I think already puts it above most if not all ascension perks

But after Le Guin it's going to give you;
Ring Worlds
Dyson Sphere
Science Nexus
Sentry Array
Matter Decompressor
Strategic Coordination Center
Mega Art Installation
Interstellar Assembly

Isn't that a bit much for one ascension perk?

Perhaps Galactic Wonders should be broken down and split between existing ascension perks.
The Science Nexus I think goes well with "Technological Ascendancy"
The Sentry Array could go with "Enigmatic Engineering"
The Mega Art Installation could go with "One Vision"
The Strategic Coordination Center could go with "Galactic Force Projection"

Ring Worlds, Dyson Sphere, Matter Decompressor and Interstellar Assembly, I don't think could really go with an existing ascension perks but I'm sure something could be put together.

What do you guys think? Is Galactic Wonders too powerful?

 

[wundergoat]

Ring worlds used to be separate and people hated it. IMO it is better as one perk so you aren’t tying up lots of slots to get megastructures, and can therefore also still have room for an ascension and other flavor perks.

Keep in mind you still want galactic engineering If you are going megastructure heavy plus you need voidborne.

 

[Dreagon]

Galactic Wonders is fine. The fact that megastructures were spread over 2 perks wasn't popular. It's not like you can mass these structures. It takes a long time to build them all, especially if the new structures get added to galactic wonders (is that confirmed?), so having acces to them all simply allows for some flexibility and allows you to take other perks as well.

 

[Tyrannical Prince]

Back when Ring Worlds were their own ascension perk, I agree. It just felt dumb for them to be separate from another perk that held 3 megastructures.

But having 8 megastructures under one perk? There isn't a single other Ascension perk that even comes close to that. Everyone is going to pick that perk and because they pick that perk (and because the structures take so long to build) everyone is going to pick Master Builders as well.

Maybe I'm wrong. How many people out there don't feel the need to pick this perk now?


But aside from that I like the idea of competing empires that have access to different megastructures. I think it would make the late game empires more unique and interesting. You could have a late game empire with a dyson sphere vs a late game empire with a sensor array and maybe a science nexus. That sounds more interesting to me than everyone having everything.

 

[KingAlamar]

I think I see the OPs point but I don't agree with the fix that they are proposing.

I'm currently wondering if you happen to have MEGA ENGINEERING tech anyway why should you necessarily need one of your very few perks to construct any of the mega structures? Maybe a single perk [include Habitats & Colossus too while you're at it] would allow you to build these at either discounts and/or more quickly but I'm not fond of having to spend multiple perks to just to build a death star, a few habitats, and a science array.

If you remove the 2-3 "required" perks needed for mega structures [counting Habitats & Colossus] maybe we could look at things like having players get fewer perks / tradition trees completed without causing too many head & heart aches.

 

[Masoz]

As far as Megastructures go, if you want to go heavy on them then you need Voidborne, Master Builders, and Galactic Wonders. That's three perks! We don't need more. The huge investment is generally not seen as worth it as is.

 

[Alblaka]

Galactic Wonders is fine. The fact that megastructures were spread over 2 perks wasn't popular. It's not like you can mass these structures. It takes a long time to build them all, especially if the new structures get added to galactic wonders (is that confirmed?), so having acces to them all simply allows for some flexibility and allows you to take other perks as well.

I think this is a very good point.
Having all those structures under a single perk isn't a 'overpowered' balance issue, because you still can only build 3-4 realistically.

However, it does give the perk way too much of a pick rate, in terms of 'is there ever a reason NOT to pick up the perk in the late-game, because it will always provide a building useful to your playstyle'. At this point, they might as well make Mega Structures buildable without the perk at 150% cost and build time or something and make 2 perks that buff building Mega Structures (i.e. the current Master Builders one, plus another that allows building two at once?).

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Splitting it back up is probably a solid idea at this point, yeah. The Megastructures perk being almost obligatory is unfortunate.

 

[KingAlamar]

Splitting it back up is probably a solid idea at this point, yeah. The Megastructures perk being almost obligatory is unfortunate.

I'd like to see SP stats on how often the perks are chosen. If perks are "always chosen" then it would seem to defeat much of the purpose of having the perks there to differentiate your empires.

 

[Talanic]

If it granted you megstructures, it'd be way too much. Instead, it just allows you to spend massive amounts of time and effort making them. Most other ascension perks pay off the moment you take them.

 

[fodazd]

I agree that having a single ascension perk unlock *all* the megastructures makes this perk pretty much a must-pick... But if you spread it out too much, that's also frustrating, because it eats too many of your slots. I don't know what a good solution for this would look like, but maybe wonders should be gated behind something other than ascension perks? Really rare lategame techs or special events maybe?

 

[GregoryTheGreat]

On top of the points already raised about the time delay and resource investment requirements to realize the benefits, I don't even think that the perk being pick frequently is an argument against it. All that it allows is the Option of building one of several structures. Which structure(s) you priotize and where you build them are still interesting decisions, so it's not exactly strategically limiting.
Nor is it particularly overpowered in terms of the actual advantages you'll reap from it during a normal game--you're unlikely to have five or six in the coruse of a typical game.
So long as the individual structures aren't sufficiently overpowered to become must-builds, having it offer more options only increases the overall potential strategic depth or variety without having to tie one up with a three or four ascension perks that would limit one's options elsewhere.

 

[Mavkiel]

I look at it like this. You spend a perk point to be able to build mega-structures. Spending points to build things like an art complex just doesn't make sense to me. So yes, the perk is potentially powerful. However, it costs additional resources to build and time. It could easily become a white elephant that kills off an empire.

 

[wundergoat]

If it granted you megstructures, it'd be way too much. Instead, it just allows you to spend massive amounts of time and effort making them. Most other ascension perks pay off the moment you take them.

This is an important point. The wonders perk just gives you the right to spend huge amounts of resources and time to build megastructures.

TBH, I could see removing the perk requirements and gating megastructures behind tech instead while changing the perk to allow construction of multiple megastructures at a time or eliminating the empire caps. IMO ascension perks should really define your society and being a prolific builder is more compelling than just being allows to build.

 

[Studoku]

Change the description to "Allows megastructures". Problem solved.

 

[DominusNovus]

If they were to be split up, I'd say the perks that they're assigned to should have other benefits, so that you don't have to feel that you're picking that perk just for the mega project.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

I agree that having a single ascension perk unlock *all* the megastructures makes this perk pretty much a must-pick... But if you spread it out too much, that's also frustrating, because it eats too many of your slots. I don't know what a good solution for this would look like, but maybe wonders should be gated behind something other than ascension perks? Really rare lategame techs or special events maybe?

...Maybe it should be one perk that unlocks a research option for each megastructure?

 

[Tyrannical Prince]

For people who disagree with splitting up "Galactic Wonders," is there a point at which you would consider splitting it up? 10 mega structures? 20? I'm just curious.
There is currently an energy mega structure, a mineral mega structure, there could easily be a food mega structure, there's now a unity mega structure... There could be a mega structure for every single resource and then some. I'm just wondering if you would ever consider splitting Galactic Wonders up?

The argument of "you still have to pay for the mega structures," is not invalid from a balance perspective. Personally I don't subscribe to the balance perspective. I don't think many paradox games are about balance but more about viability. It's true that you still have to pay for and wait for the mega structures but I don't really think that's much of an issue for people who pick that perk. I know whenever I pick Galactic Wonders, I intend to build all of them. The only issue is the order I build them in.

As for "they take so long to build you won't be able to build them all anyway" then why not split them up? I think making specific mega structures unique depending on the ascension perks you select is more interesting then every human player always picking the same two ascension perks.

I understand the Pokemon desire of "gotta catch em all" but perhaps it would be better if the mega structures were split up to a degree that it was impossible (unless someone ONLY went for mega structures) to be able to build them all.

 

[TheDungen]

I think it should open up the ability to get rare techs for building each of these things. But I'd keep it as one ascension perk.

 

[Person012345]

Galactic Wonders is fine. The fact that megastructures were spread over 2 perks wasn't popular. It's not like you can mass these structures. It takes a long time to build them all, especially if the new structures get added to galactic wonders (is that confirmed?), so having acces to them all simply allows for some flexibility and allows you to take other perks as well.

2 technically, but for most people 3 in reality. Or wait was it 4? It's been a while since I played.