Gaining money as Muscovy

[Halaberiel]

Any tips guys? I'm on my second game playing them. The first time I spent most of my time going into Europe trying to take the Lubeck node & eventually you do end up with enough money but it takes a long time (alliances are many in Europe & AE is massive especially against the HRE). You know like Muscovy has huge landforce limits but I am just finding I cannot support them on the income you make. Also forget expensive advisors... +1 for most of the game.

Any tips from people that play Russia a lot?

 

[SkengisKhan]

i havent played muscovy in the last patch, but before that i havent really had any problems getting money with em, especially not after you've secured novogorod and east prussia! also ofc get ryazan and colonize east, and money shouldn't be that much of a problem!

 

[Oryxslayer]

Russia is not a trade power. Even in the late game, when you have blobed over eastern europe and asia, trade income is only going to make up a fraction of your income. Russia earns 60-80% of their income from tax and production, so grabbing economic isn't a bad idea. In fact, you're going to get a lot of gold from the siberian provinces, so the inflation reduction works in your favor. The other powerful idea is quantity, which reduces your army costs. Quantity can also allow you to hit 1 million soldiers as russia without much effort, so thats an added plus. Quantity is important to russia because your national ideas allow you to build bigger armies, however it doesn't lower their cost.

If you want to make any trade ducats with russia, the most profitable route is china -> novgorod. But this will never make a large amount of cash. Also, you can usually afford advisors after novgorod and kazan are conquered, so I wouldn't worry about that.

 

[Halaberiel]

As an example, currently I have conquered all of the steppe hordes / nomads except a few in the Far East. I haven't conquered Lithuania at all since I've been in alliance with Poland most of the game. I tried conquering them a little last game but it just takes forever and you can't core it yourself with the increased cost realistically. Haven't conquered Sweden at all this game since as I said, didn't want to go down to Lubeck & besides they've been allied to Austria since independence. Do have Finland as a vassal released from Novgorod though so I could go after their cores if the chance ever arises. Novgorod was dead right from the start

Base tax 312, tax income 15, production 26, trade 9 (think I have a few neg modifiers it's usually around 14). I have a net +15 balance currently with max army maintenance but all +1 advisors and only 52/87 unit limit. Doesn't seem too bad, but you have to bear in mind the +1 advisors are saving me 54g per month. I guess I am too used to playing rich nations, as anyone in Europe you can afford +2/3 advisors most of the game and as many you can go well over force limits. Same in Asia (south of Russia lol), there are a lot of rich trade nodes there as well.

There doesn't seem to be any good ideas to boost production income either, which is the main source of money for Russia. Economic ideas is almost all garbage (interest wtf who even takes out loans anyway??), same for Admin aside from the core creation & tech reduction (which isn't really needed as Russia). Trade ideas is always better and will provide more income even if Russian trade income is terrible.

I don't know do you slowly build production buildings or something? How long does it take for them to be worth it.

 

[hajutze]

I've had a game with Kurland which .. well is not Russia but I owned all of the russian-culture lands. If you conquer all of the Baltic TN and collect in there (with a light ship fleet) you're going to have quite the nice income (I had ... 220 gold per month I think but I had buildings and a galley navy)

In other words you can have a nice trade income you just need to collect as west as possible.

======================================

Having Russia, PLC and Scandinavia my income is
> Tax - 75
> Production - 207
> Trade - 250

Relevant ideas - Trade.
Relevant buildings - Lv6 trade in all of the baltic, lv3 trade (for extra trade income) in everything that leads to the baltic node.

 

[Halaberiel]

Production buildings or tax buildings do you think? Takes 50 years to pay off the base tax buildings it seems, I'm only 1550 at the moment so over the long term that's not bad. I make more money from production but the buildings seem to end up giving less money?

 

[hajutze]

While I forgot to mention it I think I actually had lv4 tax and lv2 production everywhere and I'd say - Temples are fine and the first 2 production buildings but after that - don't bother.

Contrary to what the others are saying my experience with every nation I've played is
Trade income > Production income >>>>>>>> Tax Income (totally irrelevant)

 

[TheGrouch91]

I agree. Trade is 90% of the time the highest income. Production depends on the size of your country and of course your tradegoods. Early on Russia gets most of the money from taxes tho. But once you dominate one trade port you can direct the flow much better and maximize the trade income.

 

[Halaberiel]

I think perhaps the Baltic is OK, it is much easier to get than Lubeck, I just conquered most of the Baltic in one war against Sweden. Turns out the protestant league war is a nice time to take anything you want in Europe... Only problem is Pomerania though, they have a lot of ships & Danzig province that provides loads of trading power.

I think what I'm realising re: troop numbers is Russia doesn't actually need that many. If you're losing a war you can just let them carpet siege you then pick them off slowly, it is almost impossible to lose because their manpower will eventually disappear / someone else will attack them. One of the only nations where I pretty much ignore them sieging any of my provinces since that's actually good for me!

Re: trade buildings for some reason I hadn't thought of building them. Next game I'll start building them earlier in the Novgorod node I think, especially on those with estuaries. Trade income does get better though the longer the game goes on, I think as Asian nations get stronger.

 

[sceluk]

Trade useless? I don't think so.
Get trade ideas (only dip idea I took infact), spam a ton of trade power buildings and watch the money flow. Especially when you expand over central and east asia, you can controll a lot of the overland trade.
For the record, I don't own any PLC land (been best buds since start actually lol, 300 yr alliance going strong), nor Scandinavian, or any other European. I own most Han+Manchu culture areas, plus the usual central asia, but I was still making tons of money before that.

 

[Santoes]

I wouldn't say I play russia a lot, but I do know how to gain money as hungary. It's easy to apply the same technique here to find your best money making territories. What I like to do is look for high value goods that are valued 4 or higher, and territories that have them with a reasonably high base tax of about 4 or higher and build them up for production income. It's best to just build up your 8 or higher BT territories first, and work your way down the list.

When you find a good candidate you should build the following buildings to increase production:

• Constable - 20% Production
• Workshop- +.2 Goods produced increase production and gives more value to a trade node.
• Counting House- It's a filler building and not a priority
• Treasury- These are nice to get asap. Once you have at least one spend time to retrain all of your troops, disbanding and making replacements.
• Mint- A column 1 special building that gives 50% production bonus. Very nice!
• Market- I like to build these in a home node, but they are needed fillers for potential production territories.
• Trade Depot- I only bother with these in good production territories. They will make there money back in production income by increasing value, which increase your production income.
• Canal- Increases trade value which is great in production territories.
• Road Network- It's a filler building which isn't high priority until you unlock Customs House.
• Customs House- This column two special building increase trade value by two. It's very nice, but almost similar in value to Stock Exchange. I still prefer the Custom House as it adds trade power too.
• Manufactory- These are very important to making potential good production territories even better.

I was able to have territories making over 40 production a year with in the time frame of 100 years. Russia will have a harder time as some of there best territories produce grain, but even those can make a nice income. Also temples in low autonomy territories are a nice way to start out. They increase force limit and they are on average more efficient then coring a new territory for income and BT.

 

[DicRoNero]

Any tips guys? I'm on my second game playing them. The first time I spent most of my time going into Europe trying to take the Lubeck node & eventually you do end up with enough money but it takes a long time (alliances are many in Europe & AE is massive especially against the HRE).

It doesn't take all that long, especially if you join HRE.

But even if you don't, here's a pro-tip on how to establish yourself in Lubeck really quick: DoW TO and call in Riga as co-belligent, so that they call in the Hansa. This way you can grab Lubeck in 20 years tops.

HRE way:

Tver and Ryazan are under PU, some minors are vassals.

 

[Halaberiel]

It doesn't take all that long, especially if you join HRE.

But even if you don't, here's a pro-tip on how to establish yourself in Lubeck really quick: DoW TO and call in Riga as co-belligent, so that they call in the Hansa. This way you can grab Lubeck in 20 years tops.

HRE way:

Tver and Ryazan are under PU, some minors are vassals.

You're never going to get high trade power in Lubeck doing that though, unless you also follow through with a strategy to conquer many more coastal territories in Europe. Without conquering Sweden & Denmark you don't have the ship supply and even with just 1 province The Hansa will beat you. But if you want to do that there are better nations to play, thats why I didn't really see the point in going after Lubeck again, it's not really a "Russian" thing to do if you know what I mean.

I need to find out the most efficient ways to get my current provinces producing money I think. You don't generally worry about this as most nations because trade income is ridiculous but I guess it's good to know.

 

[DicRoNero]

You're never going to get high trade power in Lubeck doing that though, unless you also follow through with a strategy to conquer many more coastal territories in Europe. Without conquering Sweden & Denmark you don't have the ship supply and even with just 1 province The Hansa will beat you. But if you want to do that there are better nations to play, thats why I didn't really see the point in going after Lubeck again, it's not really a "Russian" thing to do if you know what I mean.

Of course I pick other provinces as well, why would I ever limit myself? Denmark and Sweden are irrelevant. Also, you don't need many ships. Finally, there are no "better nations", playing the way above as Muscovy is totally viable. I'd say it's even the best overall strategy, since you're getting closer to your main competitors, such as France and Spain. Of course, that's just my humble opinion, since I've merely got 1400 hours played as Russia with different starting tags. I haven't played much of 1.8, but in 1.7 I usually had Lubeck giving me as much money as Novgorod by some 1550s.

it's not really a "Russian" thing to do if you know what I mean.

There ain't such a thing. Russian thing is WC combined with maximum culture conversion. It's a matter of taste which lands to grab first. From what I've experienced, ROTW can be left intact for a while with very little drawbacks.

 

[Halaberiel]

It's just a personal thing I guess, I play a lot of The Hansa & other HRE states (my favourites are trade republics, I don't play nations like Russia often) so if I was going to spend a lot of time in Europe I would play one of them. I guess if you just play Russia though you would branch out more ^^ I am really enjoying it though, you feel so safe as Russia & there are so many different countries you can attack.

Didn't take expansion ideas though this game which was a mistake I think. Took religious first instead but didn't realise it's kinda useless till admin tech 8-10 anyway because you don't get the missionary decisions till then. The CB was good early I guess but not that needed.

 

[DicRoNero]

Didn't take expansion ideas though this game which was a mistake I think. Took religious first instead but didn't realise it's kinda useless till admin tech 8-10 anyway because you don't get the missionary decisions till then. The CB was good early I guess but not that needed.

TBQH, I don't think expansion is required. Well, if you push hard and early into Asia, then it's okaish, but other than that it's of very little use. First 4 to 5 idea groups are super important and should be picked according to your strategy; if it doesn't evolve around eastward crusade, then not picking expansion is in no way a mistake.

 

[Halaberiel]

While I forgot to mention it I think I actually had lv4 tax and lv2 production everywhere and I'd say - Temples are fine and the first 2 production buildings but after that - don't bother.

Contrary to what the others are saying my experience with every nation I've played is
Trade income > Production income >>>>>>>> Tax Income (totally irrelevant)

What level 5 buildings are you putting down? I'm not sure whether to go tax or production?

 

[hajutze]

Went for trade in the Baltic so I can have a huge galley navy and not bother with light ships. Didn't really bother with the other lands.

 

[Artyom87]

with russia I find myself very rich in the first 20 years or so and then slowly going broke and then being rich again in the 17th century IF i managed to build some buildings.

what I would do is at start hire a lvl 2 admin advisor. You will just need admin points. And you actually can afford it easily

And the main source of income should be trade. Due to 3 reasons: A) most of your provinces will have high autonomy if you expand fast, which is why you become poor for about 100 years. B) you should have a crapload of diplo points which you should spend on trade buildings. C) later on yo can steer tons of trade into novgorod from kazan/siberia

also another reason why you constnatly go broke with russia is because your army is quiete large, so whenever you have to reinforce it its pretty freakin expesinve. Which is why I prefer to be at force limits but have like 80% infantry to scare off any invaders and then have one stack made to fight with like 24 inf/4cav/18 cannon ratio or smth like that

 

[DicRoNero]

A) most of your provinces will have high autonomy if you expand fast, which is why you become poor for about 100 years.

True. And cause of this, the following line might be sub-optimal.

what I would do is at start hire a lvl 2 admin advisor. You will just need admin points. And you actually can afford it easily

Why? Because you can accumulate 1-2k ducats early game and when your income plummets just support rebels among your rivals. Since you monthly income is so pathetic, you'll get insane PP for very little money (and of which you've got a nice amount stored). In my current game such a trick instantly launched my PP to the moon, lol! Of course, it's only useful if you can't maintain PP at 50 via regular means, which is non-trivial early game, imo.