Gain Mongol empire titles - how?

[Lessing]

Anybody got an idea how to get to the titular mongol empire titles?

Swearing fealty and grabbing the title from within is only possible if you're not an emperor yet.

So... if I marry a daughter to the son of a Khan.. who has a strong claim that is going to get inherited... I can invite my daughter back.

Now I have a non-dynasty Tengri mongol male with a strong inheritable claim at my court. What now? If I marry their daughter... well, that won't work since those titular titles are all agnatic.

If I press his claim, he will be independent, won't he? So what then?

 

[Darkgamma]

Matri-marry your daughter to the fourth son, kill the second or third son, kill the Khan, push your son-in-law's claim, wait for babies, kill your son-in-law and then his babies. The title should optimally pass to you if it's under primo.

 

[gibbel]

I guess the easiest way would be to marry one of the khans daughter, have a son, kill the khan and his daughter and wait until they are in a succession crisis. If the crisis doesn't come wait until you are playing the grandson with the weak claim and request an invasion.

 

[Darkgamma]

You can't request an invasion unless they have the same religious head as you and are bigger or you have a claim.

 

[unmerged(589171)]

It's not much different than taking any other Emperor level title. Here's how I did it as the Holy Roman Emperor.

1. Married myself to the 5th daughter of the Khagan. I believe she was Ugly, so that helped him let her go. If the Khagan dislikes you far too much to do this, you can look for a more distant relative with an inheritable claim.
2. Had 10 children with said daughter. The 10th was a male. This was not very efficient.
3. Created a Kill plot against the Khagan to force his 14 year old son to inherit.
4. Assassinated my wife to pass her Weak claim onto my newborn son.
5. Pressed my son's claim on the Golden Horde.
6. Once the war was over, I had my son assassinated. As his only heir, the Golden Horde was then mine.

Interestingly, the other time I took the Horde was as a Tengri. With this religion, I was able to use the Horde's Invasion CB which makes things rather straightforward.

 

[Lessing]

What I don't understand is why females get claims on agnatic titles.

 

[unmerged(589171)]

What I don't understand is why females get claims on agnatic titles.

Wow, I had never even considered that. Females can't press said Claims, though, so maybe it's merely to ensure that the Claims pass on to any grandchildren mothered by that character?

 

[Kalderus]

This used to be easier before 1.07 when the Khagan's succession law got locked to agnatic. Back in a 1.06 multiplayer game I simply married the Khagan's eldest daughter and plot killed his only son, then just inherited. Now, since it can only ever be inherited agnaticly, you'll have to do something like marry one of his daughters then press your son's claim after your wife dies.

 

[Lorehead]

I haven’t extensively tested, but I believe there are a few different ways:

• If the Khan converts to your religion, you can request an invasion.
• You can breed a claimant, Hundred Years’ War-style.
• If you can somehow get someone in the line of succession into your court, you can force a matrilineal marriage and pull the assassination trick mentioned above.
• If the titles exist long enough to assimilate de jure kingdoms, they become usurpable if you capture their de jure territory. This is more gamey: the real homelands of the Mongols are off the map, and therefore they should not be saying, “Oh, you own Khiva? Well, I guess that makes you the real Ilkhan.”

 

[fisher79]

Anybody got an idea how to get to the titular mongol empire titles?

Swearing fealty and grabbing the title from within is only possible if you're not an emperor yet.

So... if I marry a daughter to the son of a Khan.. who has a strong claim that is going to get inherited... I can invite my daughter back.

Now I have a non-dynasty Tengri mongol male with a strong inheritable claim at my court. What now? If I marry their daughter... well, that won't work since those titular titles are all agnatic.

If I press his claim, he will be independent, won't he? So what then?

You could always wait until one or both of the Mongols get something incorporated de jure (the title ceases to be titular obviously) and then usurp it by conquest. I did just that in my Rome game. The IlKhanate had incorporated the five counties of Kwarzim de jure and I conquered it. Usurped the title of Ilkhanate for myself.

 

[NewbieOne]

You could invite their unlanded heir to your court. Unlanded heirs sometimes happen, e.g. just after turning adult. Even if you can't make a marriage happen, you can make the first step by converting that character to your religion. If you aren't sure who's going to inherit but can invite the whole lot of them (e.g. father being particularly bad), you can just invite them all to your court and set your chaplain to convert populace in your capital. Less gamey than Demand Religious Conversion, doesn't require +30 opinion. If the new ruler keeps the new religion, it will be easier to intermarry in the future. (Intermarrying with pagans or muslims as a Catholic seems almost impossible to me but I managed to get Muslim courtier wives for my Nestorian characters when my ruler was Nestorian once when I played Kitboqa.)

You could have a normal marriage with their empress in some circumstances, mostly if emperor and the same religion group. An empress could still desire a better alliance than a multiking just to marry some lousy courtier later instead.

Or takeover from inside as a duke or higher when they have Elective succession.

Chancellor & gift if it's close but you're lacking one or two plusses. (Especially vs Base Reluctance and similar.)

 

[Novacat]

• If the titles exist long enough to assimilate de jure kingdoms, they become usurpable if you capture their de jure territory. This is more gamey: the real homelands of the Mongols are off the map, and therefore they should not be saying, “Oh, you own Khiva? Well, I guess that makes you the real Ilkhan.”

If you have a small kingdom, this becomes extremely easy. Swear fealty to the Khagan, wait 100 years, declare independance when your territory flips, than use the de jure on your own territory to ursurp the title.

 

[Lorehead]

If you have a small kingdom, this becomes extremely easy. Swear fealty to the Khagan, wait 100 years, declare independance when your territory flips, than use the de jure on your own territory to ursurp the title.

Haven't tested, but I don’t believe it works if the kingdom title exists. It might for a megaduke, unless the Khagan creates the title.

 

[Lessing]

You could always wait until one or both of the Mongols get something incorporated de jure (the title ceases to be titular obviously) and then usurp it by conquest. I did just that in my Rome game. The IlKhanate had incorporated the five counties of Kwarzim de jure and I conquered it. Usurped the title of Ilkhanate for myself.

Once I crush their doomstacks, my vassals kill them off pretty quickly. I'd have a hard time keeping them alive for 100 years.

The only viable choice seems to be the matri-marry assassinate thing trick.

 

[tapewormlondon]

couldnt you have a person of their religion come to your court and make them your heirs teacher, hoping that your heir converts to their religion, and then request invasion......or would that not work?

 

[Novacat]

Haven't tested, but I don’t believe it works if the kingdom title exists. It might for a megaduke, unless the Khagan creates the title

The only requirement is that all of the Kingdom's de jure lands are under the Ilkhanate, and that the Kingdom title is not held by anyone outside the Ilkhanate, but if you own all the de jure land, you should have the title as well.

couldnt you have a person of their religion come to your court and make them your heirs teacher, hoping that your heir converts to their religion, and then request invasion......or would that not work?

Only certain religions allow invasions.

 

[Lorehead]

couldnt you have a person of their religion come to your court and make them your heirs teacher, hoping that your heir converts to their religion, and then request invasion......or would that not work?

Tengri is currently unplayable. This will just get you a game over.

 

[Mods]

Tengri is currently unplayable. This will just get you a game over.

no it won't, only converting to islam will get you a game over if you don't have SOI

 

[Lorehead]

no it won't, only converting to islam will get you a game over if you don't have SOI

You’re right; I was wrong. I actually had changed my religion to Zoroastrian once, in a test game, for the purpose of making a character a heathen to every ruler in the game.