G*d dayam - this U.S. navy! Help me defeat it please!

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Saltynuts

Captain
8 Badges
Dec 30, 2008
392
0
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Semper Fi
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
So I have three stacks of 30 Uboats (the most I think I can have without going over command limit, all three are led by highest leaders possible). The heavy ones. The best Uboats in game. I put them in provinces right next to one another so when a U.S. fleet hits one, and (inevitably) beats it, I can move the others in one at a time.

Well, the U.S. navy completely streamrolls all three stacks, with me losing a good number of Uboats, and not a single loss to the U.S. navy.

How can I defeat this undefeatable force that is the U.S. navy?!?!
 

HuzzButt

Rymdkejsare
On Probation
25 Badges
May 11, 2008
568
1.788
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Iron Cross
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Deus Vult
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • 500k Club
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • Rome Gold
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • For The Glory
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II
My suggestion is to use smaller stacks and spread them out more, wear and tear down the enemy.
 

Saltynuts

Captain
8 Badges
Dec 30, 2008
392
0
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Semper Fi
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
Thanks HuzzButt. I assume you mean using smaller stacks to go convoy raiding, which makes sense. But would smaller stacks be more efficient against the U.S. navy (other than convoys) itself? I would guess it would just run through my smaller stacks that much easier than it ran through my 3 stacks of 30! But I dunno.

Thanks!
 

HuzzButt

Rymdkejsare
On Probation
25 Badges
May 11, 2008
568
1.788
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Iron Cross
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Deus Vult
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • 500k Club
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • Rome Gold
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • For The Glory
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II
Thanks HuzzButt. I assume you mean using smaller stacks to go convoy raiding, which makes sense. But would smaller stacks be more efficient against the U.S. navy (other than convoys) itself? I would guess it would just run through my smaller stacks that much easier than it ran through my 3 stacks of 30! But I dunno.
Thanks!


I have always had more success with many small stacks spread across a large area. The multiple small engagements allows my subs to retreat but it wears down the enemy org/strength of the enemy force. So yes, small stacks that go convoy raiding and just chance upon the US navy is my best suggestion.
 

Commander666

Field Marshal
2 Badges
Nov 24, 2010
5.255
51
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • 500k Club
I had fantastic luck using stacks of 9 SS-IV (no brigades) and Donitz as Chief of Navy. Another stack or two were nearby and would rush in to assist when battle starts.

Time and again my two or three stacks of 9-units each sank 18-unit fleets including 2-3 CVs and several DDs. Hardly ever did I loose a single U-boat although the first stack engaged would have about half the boats damaged 5-10%

Are you doing Sealane Interdiction doctrine? You should achieve Wolfpack by end 1940. Donitz gives bonus if attacked.

Grand Admirals get very little skill increase. You should start off with Rear Admirals on stacks of 6 sub flotillas picking up lots of skill raiding the UK convoys 1939-1940. As the enemy begins going after you with better fleets increase your stacks to 9-units. Three nine-unit stacks in proximity I found to be the ideal combination in 1941-42 considering leaders, ocean coverage, threats, and swapping out damaged subs. Leaders then would be one Grand Admiral, one Admiral and one Vice-Admiral to cover any combination of those 3 groups joining. Then I run that same again in a different ocean for total of 54 units. So I might cover the Celtic Sea and the North Atlantic.

Don't run subs that have even 1% damage... replace those from spares whenever fleet comes to port. I also use Force Engagement. The trick is working in proximity so any 9-unit stack is quickly backed up by friends.
 
Last edited:

Commander666

Field Marshal
2 Badges
Nov 24, 2010
5.255
51
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • 500k Club

HuzzButt

Rymdkejsare
On Probation
25 Badges
May 11, 2008
568
1.788
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Iron Cross
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Deus Vult
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • 500k Club
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • Rome Gold
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • For The Glory
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II
I've been using 6 unit stacks for most part but it seems like Commanders method is even more beneficial.
 

Pang Bingxun

Field Marshal
2 Badges
Nov 22, 2011
5.596
185
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • 500k Club
So I have three stacks of 30 Uboats (the most I think I can have without going over command limit, all three are led by highest leaders possible).

You should at no point in time have more than 26 naval divisions in one sea zone, above that the total attack of the fleet decreases. Long before that there are diminishing returns, so in practise fleets of 18 naval divisions are a huge fleet. A fleet of 12 naval divisions is often a good choice, but even fleets of only 6 naval divisions can be a good choice.

That all refered to fleets of surface ships. For Submarines the logic is even more severe. The main attribute of submarines is visibilty. The lower the better. The visibility of a fleet is the visibilty of all its naval divisions added together.

If your visibilty is very low the enemy might fail many hours of the battle to detect a single naval divisions. If none of your divisions is detected none will be fired on and none will receive damage. That is where subs do excel and nuclear subs especially so.

There are 3 kind of subs. There are heavy subs, they have the highest visibility and they will therefore be fired on most often which maks them a very poor choice for battle. Then there are the normal subs. Model 1945 as visibility of only 3 compared to 9 of 1942 heavy sub. This makes them a lot more valueable for battle than Heavy subs. Third there are nuclear Subs. Aim at having them ASAP in great numbers and once you got them disband all other Sub as those are very inferior to nuclear subs. Nuclear subs a have a visibilty of 1 and they have a further bonus against being detected that is not shown in their stats.

Nuclear subs are very strong, their main weakness may be their low supply stockpile. During battle or convoy hunting they lose supply as fast as any other naval divisions, but they last a lot longer in battle, so chances of being low on supplies are a lot higher.

When using Subs in great numbers you should use the proper Chief of Navy and you should use the german doctrine tree. You should usually use Subs in formations of 6 divisions. Having up to 2 formations and therefore up to 12 divisions in a sea zone is acceptable. If you go for too small fleets you risk doing so little damage per hour that battles might take forever, therefore fleets below 6 divisions are not advisable for any major battle. Also donnot forget to use forced engagement. When fighting with subs your fleets will appear vastly inferior, but due to their low visibilty they can match superior fleets.

Year is 1950 by the way.

This means that the US Navy will use 1947 destroyes with most modern SAW and CV with CAG1948. The later will make CV a ship quite good at hunting Subs. That might make the US Navy a challenge even for nuclear subs.
 

Commander666

Field Marshal
2 Badges
Nov 24, 2010
5.255
51
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • 500k Club
Regarding the logic of submarine warfare, it needs somebody who practices it successfully to advise here. Contrary to what might be expected, you want high visibility on your sub packs.... so they get attacked. A stack of 9 units is about the right visibility so the dumb UK and USA AIs will find you easily.

You want to be attacked for 2 key reasons:
a) Donitz gives your U-boats a Defense Bonus.
b) Critically, if attacked, you can simply rush via normal movement any nearby wolf pack - and if it reaches battle zone while combat there still on - then there is a 99% chance that your reinforcement Wolfpack will enter the battle. And getting 2nd Wolfpack to join fray is te key to winning.

But if combat results from your U-boats attacking enemy fleet, there is a 99% chance that any 2nd Wolfpack sent there via normal movement will NOT join battle, and a 50% chance that any Wolfpack sent there via Sea Interdiction will also not join battle.

To be successful with this U-boat tactic one needs to work with the game mechanics, and not against them because some stats conflict with the proper thinking.

I've been using 6 unit stacks for most part but it seems like Commanders method is even more beneficial.

Just six U-boats is rather weak when attacked by an 18-unit mixed fleet having 3-4 CVs and ~6 DDs. But mostly the decision about 6-unit Wolfpacks or 9 unit Wolfpacks comes down to organizational efficiency. If having 60 U-boat flotillas, at 6/stack, that is 10 fleets that need managing.

At 9-unit stacks that is only 6 fleets (54 units) plus 6 sitting as spares (or repairing). Managing 6 fleets is far preferable to managing 9 or 10 fleets. And because U-boats have separate areas, it only is actually managing 3 stacks per major area. Well, 3 is about the limit of my management abilities without getting into overload.

But - importantly - combining three 9-unit fleets - gives 27 total which is as close as you can get to the theoretical maximum battle optimum size. If six unit Wolf Packs, you would have either 24 or 30 total, which is not really the best.

Finally, leaders matter a lot. If running 6-unit Wolfpacks, you still need a Grand Admiral to command when 5 wolfpacks in same sea zone. But what you goanna do when only 2 wolfpacks come together? Somebody immediately must be promoted to Vice Admiral. But what if another combination of two wolfpacks comes together? That pair of stacks also needs a Vice-Admiral. Well, soon we have nearly every one of your 6-unit stacks led by a Vice-Admiral - which is a 50% waste of "being too over high in command". However, definitely start with 6-unit Wolfpacks using Rear Admirals for max exp gain in 1939-40.

But by 1941 a 6-unit wolfpack can probably not last without significant losses while it waits for reinforcements to arrive. And the whole strategy is about "not retreating" but instead increasing the battle until the enemy attacker decides to retreat. That is when the crucial time of "AI ineptness" is reached, and most of the enemy fleet destruction occurs because the AI is strategically slow to ever retreat.

SUMMARY: To be clear low sub visibility has no application in sub warfare unless we are discussing single subs. But single subs (and groups of 3) get annihilated almost immediately once attacked.

So we are discussing Wolf Packs - which have considerable total visibility. And as we need 18 U-boat flotillas to handle the org loss of battle with any 18-unit surface fleet, we are discussing huge visibility. And watching the battle display, we see the normal - the targeted U-boats keep getting re-targeted, meaning there is no advantage at all to having low individual visibility identical to the soldier standing next to you.
 
Last edited:

HuzzButt

Rymdkejsare
On Probation
25 Badges
May 11, 2008
568
1.788
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Iron Cross
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Deus Vult
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • 500k Club
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • Rome Gold
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • For The Glory
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II
Good points.

I remember playing around with what you say in your last paragraph back in DD, back then iirc it was cheap to build super heavy battleships and force engagements with enemy fleets as Germany. You took some losses but it allowed you to destroy the enemy naval units in quick progression.

In my current game, 1948 as Germany my Subs have been decommissioned. I usually don't keep a game going this far but it played out interesting. My six unit stacks worked well up until 1946 at which point the US navy obliterated my subs (tech up to date.). Increasing the stack size didn't change the outcome but since I had managed to successfully land with a force of 18 para and 16 assorted MOT, MEC and ARM divisions; I decided to decomission the lot instead of letting the US bombard them in port. I've got 20 double runs of Nuclear subs in production but it looks like I'll have the US beaten before they're ready.

There's a question to this: in late game naval engagements how do nuclear subs hold up? Pang refers to an issue with supplies but assuming they have supply how do they hold up?
 

Commander666

Field Marshal
2 Badges
Nov 24, 2010
5.255
51
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • 500k Club
I don't know never having used them. It is 1949 in my game, but I am the USA, and no amount of subs or hits seems capable of having a direct negative impact on the 34 enemy divisions entrenched on Bermuda. I had the same problem with the Japanese entrenched in the Hawaiian Islands. Subs simply did not prevent all supplies from stopping to cause any starving. It was only after I took Tokyo that then starving of Japanese on distant islands began.

But as regards Germany with its 741 IC, there is no way I can beat the convoy to Bermuda even if I get 10 merchant men sunk every time (I am getting 5 regularly). Firstly, the convoy doesn't run that often to accumulate total convoy losses, and Germany can easily construct far more than the losses.

It is not at all like German U-boats against the much smaller IC country of UK in 1940, but having dozens of convoy routes that need maintaining and especially vast numbers from the convoy pool already engaged importing resources. Frankly, submarines for the Allies is nearly a total waste of time, IC, and management effort. As soon as I nuke Bermuda I will disband all my 27 SS-V in the Atlantic because they are only using up vital TC which goes into the red every time my armor divisions do a major thrust.
 

Pang Bingxun

Field Marshal
2 Badges
Nov 22, 2011
5.596
185
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • 500k Club
There's a question to this: in late game naval engagements how do nuclear subs hold up? Pang refers to an issue with supplies but assuming they have supply how do they hold up?

Very well. Their supplies are not low, they are as high as other for othr subs, in fact they are higher due to higher daily supply consumption. But measured in days their stockpiles are as great as for other subs. The "problem" really is that they hold up so damn well. They can continue fighting many days, possibly a week or longer without even taking a small dent. I donnot recall details. It is a long time ago since i did a test run with Nuclears Subs. They are very capable of sinking the Royal Navy in 1939. Well, you will not have them then, but that was about the scale of the test. Let your fleet of Nuc be detected without your divisions being detected so your fleet is attacked but your subs in it are not attacked. Once your fleet of 6 Nuc gets low on supplies(~30% left) move in a second fleet of 6 Nuc and once they are engaged in battle disengange the first fleet so it can resupply in port. That is the standard operating procedure for Nuclear subs.

As for Stats the submarine warfare changes a lot after 1938:

SS1938: Sea attack 4 at visibilty 7
SS1944: Sea attack 5 at visibilty 4
SS1945: Sea attack 6 at visibilty 3
Nu1948: Sea attack 7 at visibilty 1
 

HuzzButt

Rymdkejsare
On Probation
25 Badges
May 11, 2008
568
1.788
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Iron Cross
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Deus Vult
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • 500k Club
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • Rome Gold
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • For The Glory
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II
It makes for an interesting use. I might have to hunker down as Germany and test it out.
 

Commander666

Field Marshal
2 Badges
Nov 24, 2010
5.255
51
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • 500k Club
It makes for an interesting use. I might have to hunker down as Germany and test it out.

I think you right. But there is a serious problem once the game is way past historical. German wolf packs of SS-IV sinking whole Allied fleets we might still consider semi-historical as regards AoD. But I mean going way past historical, such as after Germany has invaded Britain.

Frankly, with UK government retreated to Belize, who can Germany use submarines against? The USA and Canada don't need to trade overseas at all. And we can expect such a historical game to have resulted in the loss of all US island territories because of Japan AI except maybe Puerto Rico. So will German player use nuclear subs in 1948 to kill the convoy extracting 1 energy from Puerto Rico.... because there won't be any other targets - with the allied navies already sunk by SS-IV back in 1943?

I think German player would need to refrain from winning anything after Bitter Peace, and harness his Japanese ally just so the game could progress with some better balance maintained until Germany can get to building nuclear subs. In the case of my USA, it was early 1949 that I actually could start constructing SSN-I.... and I doubt German research would be much faster.

But unless Germany takes out the British Isles and all the Euro-Asia-African land mass, it will get nuked by US bombers long before then. But if German player commits such ahistorical play to protect himself, he also eliminates the possible targets to test nuclear subs on because taking Iceland, Bermuda and the Canaries (to deny bases to enemy strategic bombers carrying nukes by 1945) inevitably results in the total elimination of the USN - if German player will succeed getting those island destinations.

So there is a conundrum with German player testing nuclear subs in AoD (other than doing via in-file manipulation).
 

HuzzButt

Rymdkejsare
On Probation
25 Badges
May 11, 2008
568
1.788
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Iron Cross
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Deus Vult
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • 500k Club
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • Rome Gold
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • For The Glory
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II
I think you right. But there is a serious problem once the game is way past historical. German wolf packs of SS-IV sinking whole Allied fleets we might still consider semi-historical as regards AoD. But I mean going way past historical, such as after Germany has invaded Britain.

Frankly, with UK government retreated to Belize, who can Germany use submarines against? The USA and Canada don't need to trade overseas at all. And we can expect such a historical game to have resulted in the loss of all US island territories because of Japan AI except maybe Puerto Rico. So will German player use nuclear subs in 1948 to kill the convoy extracting 1 energy from Puerto Rico.... because there won't be any other targets - with the allied navies already sunk by SS-IV back in 1943?

I think German player would need to refrain from winning anything after Bitter Peace, and harness his Japanese ally just so the game could progress with some better balance maintained until Germany can get to building nuclear subs. In the case of my USA, it was early 1949 that I actually could start constructing SSN-I.... and I doubt German research would be much faster.

But unless Germany takes out the British Isles and all the Euro-Asia-African land mass, it will get nuked by US bombers long before then. But if German player commits such ahistorical play to protect himself, he also eliminates the possible targets to test nuclear subs on because taking Iceland, Bermuda and the Canaries (to deny bases to enemy strategic bombers carrying nukes by 1945) inevitably results in the total elimination of the USN - if German player will succeed getting those island destinations.

So there is a conundrum with German player testing nuclear subs in AoD (other than doing via in-file manipulation).


Yes that would make the experiment problematic, Using the Abyss and setting another starting date as well as changing the AI files might work though.