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Thistletooth

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In your quest for realism, have any of you guys tried limiting the number of provinces connectors, especially in out-of-the-way areas - moreso than you have already, of course? I noticed you blocked off the highlands of Borneo (which I agree with and have adopted for my mod) and completely eliminated New Guinea (which seems a little harsh, but maybe it was an AI issue, I don't know), and even went as far as to seal off the China-Vietnam border. This latter one is the one that intrigues me the most. Certainly, I can see how a Japanese push from Haiphong to Kunming (or a Chinese rampage to Saigon) could be annoying and ahistorical, but in addition to resolving a possible AI issue, it also serves to steer the AI towards historical directions of attack. And that got me thinking:

Since China's roads at this time were quite poor, and given that much of the south and west were quite rugged, is it historical to allow anyone invading China to advance along broad fronts, attacking every province from 3-4 directions, as if you were the Wehrmacht advancing through the Low Countries or the Soviets through Poland and Germany? From what I've gathered from maps, there were very few avenues of attack open to anyone attempting to penetrate the Chinese interior. Furthermore, there is always the issue of how to make China better at defending itself without giving it a ton of units or too much IC. That's where I came up with the idea to limit movement to, through, and by areas that historically had major roads between them, except in areas (such as the Central China Plains) where movement and supply probably wouldn't be that difficult.

I understand the role that infrastructure plays in the game regarding movement speed and supply efficiency, but in my opinion, it doesn't do as much as it should. If a province has an infrastructure of 30%, that seems to imply that the roads are poor and it would be difficult to keep any divisions there in supply. But what if that province has one major road running right through it? Shouldn't it be easier to supply it, assuming you control one of the provinces the road is coming from? Wouldn't it be better in many instances to keep the infrastructure there high, while simply closing off the connections to other provinces, where the attackers would be forced to leave the major road behind and haul ass over a barren mountain range when it might be more expedient to simply advance one more province and attack the mountain range from there, assuming there's a road going up there from the new direction? Sure, there might be some sort of a road going between nearly every province in the game, but would a small dirt track support an army-sized supply lane? If nothing else, it could make the job of the defender a little easier in some places, freeing them from having to defend illogical axes of attack. Alternatively, it could make the job of the attacker easier, by making it harder for the defender to retreat to a humongous marsh province with 10% infrastructure and thus threaten four occupied provinces with a counterattack that simply could never come from that direction.

What I have done is to take China as an example. I have closed off certain province connections in the south and west (and even a couple in the southeast) in such a way that it would force the AI to advance along the major roads. Every province is still accessible by at least two others, and it doesn't turn the whole area into a maze, but it closes off the routes that I feel would have been too difficult to maintain supply through, as well as a few provinces whose cities appear to be mis-aligned (so if you wanted to move from Province A to Province B, you'd have to go through Province C, which borders them both), but only in cases where I saw no alternate routes other than to go directly through Province C's major city.

Probably the starkest example I've noticed has been regarding the path from Changde to Chongqing, which has been split into two routes. You can't just go from Changde to Chongqing in three moves anymore, you'd have to either take the northern route (Changde-Yichang-Enshi-Wanxian-Chongqing) or the southern route (Changde-Huaihua-Kaili-Guiyang-Zunyi-Fuling-Chongqing).


HoITRPProvinceConnectionsIdea.jpg

Changde-Enshi, Enshi-Fuling, Huaihua-Fuling, Huaihua-Zunyi, and Kaili-Zunyi have all been blocked off due to lack of major connecting roads


The province that has been affected the most thus far has been Ganzhou, which has lost almost half of its province connections, mostly because there are only three major roads leading to it, with two paths splitting just before they hit a neighboring province's city (which was a close call, and I might end up blocking those two as well).


HoITRPProvinceConnectionsIdea2.jpg

The blocked routes and alternate paths. Ganzhou-Nanping and Ganzhou-Chao'an are close calls, since the roads run so close to Longyan and Guangzhou, respectively.


Have you experimented with this kind of setup before? Will the AI still defend provinces that are in no danger of being attacked due to a now-broken land connection? If you've found this kind of setup to be untenable or highly unrealistic, I'd be curious to know, so maybe I don't go too far with this (not that returning adj-defs.txt to default would be difficult). Or if you are curious about this system, I'd be happy to share my initial changes with you. I'm planning on extending this to Siberia at the very least (I hate it when the Soviet AI moves 20 divisions from one icy hellhole to another, forming that godawfully ugly front from the White Sea to Yakutsk across empty roadless land). I love what you've done so far with the province connections, and as I'm partly basing my mod on yours, I just thought to try something a little more with it. I'm curious to know what you think.
 
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Very Good idea

One of the weak spots off the Hoi series is the low detailed one terrain no roads province setup. This idea could perhaps be developed into a very good fix (for lack of better word) for this weakness.

The restrictions the infrastructure imposed on possible invasion/attack routes are not very well simulated in this game. In high infra or "movement friendly" terrain areas the current system works well enough. But in undeveloped areas with lots of terrain obstacles, this blocking of province connections could perhaps work well as a substitute. It will probably be one hell of a job to get it both AI balanced (if possible) and historical correct. Northern India/Burma/Siam/south America areas would also be some of the places that this idea could be used to increase realism, and slow down advances into a more realistic pace.

If it can be made to work. In such a way, that the AI benefits from the imposed restrictions on attack, defence & movement. It would be a very significant enhancement.

Thumps up for the idea, sincerely hopes this can be made to work in some form or other.
 

Gen. Skobelev

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I also like the idea very much. Might be very big thing to implement, test and balance, though. But could be very rewarding as well.

And already there are some limitations in the vanilla game like Quattara depression. It would be very nice to have some other bottlenecks in the map too.
 

Thistletooth

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Since there seems to be some positive response, I'll show you what I've put together so far:


HoIBrokenConnectionsManchuria.jpg



The blue mark is a mistake; there is a regular river connection there.


HoIBrokenConnectionsMongolia.jpg



Bayan Nur-Hohhot is left over from vanilla. I can see no geographical reasons why it should be closed, but I am aware of the effect that could have on gameplay, so I left it for now.


HoIBrokenConnectionsXinjiang-1.jpg


Taklimakan has been conceptually reshaped to represent the crossroads city of Kuqa. You should be able to go from Korla to Aksu while completely avoiding either Gulja/Yining or the formidable Tien Shan mountains. At the same time, it would be much, much easier to reach Aksu from Gulja if you went through Kuqa; there's a pass through the Tien Shan en route and there are no other major roads. To represent that only the top part of Taklimakan is accessible, the other provinces were all blocked off.

And in the event that TRP does adopt this particular change, since Aksu is now cut off from Frunze/Bishkek and Gulja, there is little reason not to make it a non-mountain desert, as no province that can reach it has to cross mountains to get to it. Aksu simply becomes a town on a two-way desert road.


HoIBrokenConnectionsTibet.jpg



Dunhuang-Golmud is a tough call, and the green line signifies a connection I'm unsure about. None of my detailed maps have Golmud on them; It's always just off the edges, so I don't know if there's a road between it and Dunhuang. If the two provinces are separated, it would turn the Xining-Korla path into two long roads separated from each other by a hundred miles of terribly rough terrain - including Lop Nur, which I've heard has a fearsome reputation - which, from my understanding, is pretty much what it is.


HoIBrokenConnectionsSWChina.jpg



Clearly the most intricate and maze-like part of China. There are some crazy roads down here. I am aware that I've blocked off a number of connections that already have mountains and rivers, and that might seem a little unnecessary, but in my quest to be thorough, I decided to include them.

Besides, MTN-ENG would still tear right through this place.


HoIBrokenConnectionsSEChina.jpg



Nothing to report here other than the continuing mystery surrounding Ganzhou, and how anal I want to be when tracing these roads.


If you have any questions, feel free.
 

Thistletooth

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M_B said:
Its a great idea if the AI can handle it.

About that....I've noticed that when I play as Japan (this isn't TRP, as I don't know if I've tried Japan in TRP), and I capture Hohhot, China doesn't tend to garrison Bayan Nur. I don't know if the AI files have to be programmed around that blocked connection, or if it would fall under the category of front AI, or whatever the term is.

Hopefully, if you capture a province that "borders" a second province that it doesn't actually connect with, the AI will recognize that and not garrison that second province until you capture another province that has a connection with it. After all, it doesn't really see the map and the lines there, it sees the province connections. Doesn't it? :confused:

The other thing I'm not sure about is pathing. If the AI wants to move from Beijing to Nanking, how does it determine how it's going to get there? Will it just select the destination province and let the computations decide the route, or would breaking provine connection mess up these pathings somehow?
 
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Gormadoc

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Thistletooth said:
About that....I've noticed that when I play as Japan (this isn't TRP, as I don't know if I've tried Japan in TRP), and I capture Hohhot, China doesn't tend to garrison Bayan Nur. I don't know if the AI files have to be programmed around that blocked connection, or if it would fall under the category of front AI, or whatever the term is.

Hopefully, if you capture a province that "borders" a second province that it doesn't actually connect with, the AI will recognize that and not garrison that second province until you capture another province that has a connection with it. After all, it doesn't really see the map and the lines there, it sees the province connections. Doesn't it? :confused:
Iam pretty sure the AI sees connections and not the map. You are also correct with the observation about AI not Garrisoning Bayan Nur. Atleast i have never seen the AI do so.

Thistletooth said:
The other thing I'm not sure about is pathing. If the AI wants to move from Beijing to Nanking, how does it determine how it's going to get there? Will it just select the destination province and let the computations decide the route, or would breaking provine connection mess up these pathings somehow?
I would think it will still choose the shortest route as usual. The automatic pathing are already slightly messed up. It will choose the shortest route but not necesarily the fastest.

Even if the AI gets a bit confused, i still see this has great potential in a multiplayer mod.
 

Thistletooth

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And since SE Asia is pretty small:


HoIBrokenConnectionsIndochina-1.jpg



I don't know why Hanoi and Vientiane have a broken connection while Hanoi and Luang Prabang don't. :confused:

I switched the province names for Phnom Penh and Battambang. It really doesn't make sense to keep them in their original locations. So now, Phnom Penh is cut off from Bangkok, since the only major road leads through Batambang.

Moulmein is a tricky province to diagnose. Historically, it was attacked all along its eastern length, but the only attack aimed at Moulmein itself came more from the north. Maintaining supply from Bangkok to Moulmein province would almost require that Moulmein city have fallen. Not sure what to do with it.


HoIBrokenConnectionsBurma-1.jpg



A lot of restructuring was necessary to make Burma fit better. Kunchaung is now Myitkyina and Myitkyina is now Tabong. This should better reflect the northern route from Myitkyina to the Indian border and the Brahmaputra River. Despite the narrowing of the front, I think having three ways to penetrate India would be important; it shouldn't all rest on Imphal.

The border between Kaleua and Akyab is difficult to determine. The Japanese made a number of small advances in that area, but I think they were most operations involving the support of troops in Arakan being attacked by the British. I'm not sure if a closed border is justified here. Same with Kunchuang (now Myitkyina) and its terribly rugged eastern borders, which were crossed, just with a great deal of struggle. I'm also worried about making Baoshan too vulnerable from the west.

Nai Ga was closed off since it served little purpose other than to maybe get a few retreating units trapped when they retreat there instead of to somewhere smart. It's pretty inaccessible anyway.


HoIBrokenConnectionsSumatra.jpg



Northeastern Sumatra didn't have much in the way of roads; most of what they had simply ran to the other coast. I considered putting straits there given the coastal waters, but I'm not sure how feasable that would be given the size of the island.


HoIBrokenConnectionsBorneo.jpg



I felt that Borneo didn't have it bad enough. The island really deserves to be split in half, not just hollowed out.
 

Thistletooth

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M_B said:
If a province is completely inaccessible from everywhere then I'd have thought it should just have a 0 infrastructure.

If it's a coastal province, it can still be reached by ship. Consider New Guinea.

But even a 0 infrastructure province can be captured and used as a launching ground for an attack. A slow attack, but still an attack. I like what TRP has done with the Sahara for that reason. I've played a few games where I've captured Algeria and Morocco, only to meet French/British/American troops coming up out of the sands. God, that pisses me off. And in vanilla, most 0% provinces are still connected to their neighbors, such as in Siberia or Tibet.

Kill all the province connections and it doesn't matter what its infra is.


Central Asia is looking pretty brutal under my proposal. Large provinces, few roads, desert and mountains everywhere.


HoIBrokenConnectionsPersia.jpg



This one's pretty self-explanitory.


HoIBrokenConnectionsTurkbekistan.jpg



The green is speculative due to concerns of completely cutting off any advance west of the Aral Sea and making it impossible for anyone but Uzbekistan, Persia, and Afghanistan to reach Turkmenistan.


HoIBrokenConnectionsKyrjikstan.jpg



Feyzabad is such a pain. Best to get rid of it.


HoIBrokenConnectionKazakWest.jpg



Exactly where Kazakhstan goes from a friendly desert to a hostile desert, I don't know.


HoIBrokenConnectionsKazakhEast.jpg



Simply a case of clumsy province shapes.
 

Hallsten

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I really like the idea of cutting off more provinces like this. As you said, it helps gameplay by cutting off the Sahara, the connection between Finland and Norway and the connection between China and Indochina, so some of this can really give a lot to gameplay IMHO... :)
 

Minodrin

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On the other hand, I think you should be too careful about stepping too far. Like "this is the only practical - historical route, let's block off all others"

Didn't the French high command think that it was impossible to move a large army trough the Ardennes, hence a direction not really worth defending against? Be careful you don't make the same mistake and end up losing realism.
 

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Minodrin said:
Didn't the French high command think that it was impossible to move a large army trough the Ardennes, hence a direction not really worth defending against? Be careful you don't make the same mistake and end up losing realism.
Well on the other hand the route through the ardennes has been used more than once through history when someone was invading france. Think some of the German barbarian tribes where the first to use that route. :rolleyes:

If TRP dosnt want to use it, i would suggest you perhaps made a stand alone map mod, for people to use. Could give AI problems though.
 

Thistletooth

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Minodrin said:
On the other hand, I think you should be too careful about stepping too far. Like "this is the only practical - historical route, let's block off all others"

Didn't the French high command think that it was impossible to move a large army trough the Ardennes, hence a direction not really worth defending against? Be careful you don't make the same mistake and end up losing realism.

I'd rather go too far, have someone else disagree, and have that lead to a debate. I think it would lead to a better setup than making only tiny, inconsequential changes.

And yes, there could be a few more green lines up there. I'm just posting all the possible route closures that I can see, to paint a picture of how things could look, and give you guys the opportunity to trace the prospective new routes with your eyes.
 

donagel

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I am just conjecturing here, but as I recall, the Japaneese advance into India was made possible by the building of new roads. Were their existing "major roads". If not, does that muck up your idea?
 

Gormadoc

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Iam a bit curios about which maps you use as reference. Is it historical maps from that time period or ... ?

Is it possible to get hold of the maps, would perhaps give us an better understanding of why the specific changes are made. Also easier to come with constructive critic/suggestion.

Sofar it all looks very well thought out.