Function from CK1 that needs to be re-implemented

[Rambo]

I really hope P'dox will re-implement having your liege ask permission before raising your levies. It's crazy that a liege can just raise my levies without even asking me permission, and then march them off, and I even have to pay for it!

Played a game as Syria the other night, and started out as duke of Aleppo, i swore fealty to HRE just because it was impossible to survive at first otherwise. However, later on as i was more powerful, yet still in the midst of heathens, he would constantly just steal my levies and march them thousands of miles just to put down some stupid rebels in HRE. I got so sick of it I eventually started a big civil war, and broke free.

But I really miss them having to ask permission, and me denying it more often than not. But it was also cool because it was another reason to maintain good relations with vassals since I had to ask their permission to take their levies as well.

Not to mention I think this function would help with the super large, super stable totally unrealistic Kingdoms and empires that we see now in the game.

For example the HRE being able to raise every single levy in the empire regardless of relations with his vassals is way overpowered.

 

[ssj18vegeta]

I like this way better. You have obligations as a vassal. One of them is granting your liege a levy. If you don't want that, then you'll have to take up arms against him!

 

[TheChronoMaster]

So it'd be fair the other way around, right?

Like, if your vassals could just refuse to let you raise their levies if they don't feel like it, right?

Just like in CK.

 

[Rambo]

I like this way better. You have obligations as a vassal. One of them is granting your liege a levy. If you don't want that, then you'll have to take up arms against him!

Well when you did not, you took a big relations hit, and then he would make claims on your titles. It wasn't as if there was no penalty.

 

[unmerged(436066)]

I like this way better. You have obligations as a vassal. One of them is granting your liege a levy. If you don't want that, then you'll have to take up arms against him!

Of course, the relationship between vassal and liege is by no means absolutist. The liege has responsibilities to protect you and if he's not doing this, hes failing to uphold his end of the deal and thus you should be free to decline. However; I do like the new system to some extent, as opinion tends to dictate just how many of your levy's you'll be providing your liege.

 

[Rambo]

So it'd be fair the other way around, right?

Like, if your vassals could just refuse to let you raise their levies if they don't feel like it, right?

Just like in CK.

I mentioned that in my OP, yes, and i think it is a good thing. As I said it is another reason to keep good relations with vassals.

 

[flame7926]

For example the HRE being able to raise every single levy in the empire regardless of relations with his vassals is way overpowered.

You get a percentage of levies based on relations, you cant raise all of them, not by a long shot. So there is a big incentive to have high relations. Also because raising relations for a long time decreases relations.

Does anyone know whether it is a permenent decrease, or a short term one, because I would like to make it something like a permanent -1.5 per month. It seems like it is temporary.

 

[TheChronoMaster]

Well when you did not, you took a big relations hit, and then he would make claims on your titles. It wasn't as if there was no penalty.

Of course since CK1 AI was as dumb as a bag of rocks, it didn't really matter.

 

[Rambo]

You get a percentage of levies based on relations, you cant raise all of them, not by a long shot. So there is a big incentive to have high relations. Also because raising relations for a long time decreases relations.

When you have 100 counties it doesn't matter, that is still a huge army.

And like others have said, the large empires / kingdoms in this game have way too much power, partically HRE, it is impossible for it to break up for more than a generation or so because the emperor just has too much power. It really is just totally unhistorical.

 

[flame7926]

When you have 100 counties it doesn't matter, that is still a huge army.

And like others have said, the large empires / kingdoms in this game have way too much power, partically HRE, it is impossible for it to break up for more than a generation or so because the emperor just has too much power. It really is just totally unhistorical.

Yes, but I dont think its really related to vassal levies, more to being able to raise crown authority for so long, and maybe AI not being opportunistic enough in declaring independence.

 

[Damocles]

The devs don't think it is realistic for a vassal to refuse a summons to war, and are content with the relationship determining how many or few soldiers are sent.

In my own games, I've changed this to make the relationship need to be much higher to get the full complement of troops. But yes, it remains extraordinarily silly.

When Edward I conquered Scotland, he summoned the whole realm to fight for him in France...Roughly 17 mounted esquires showed up. If Edward I had been a CK ruler, he would have had thousands and thousands, who would have happily marched from Paris to Constantinople for him at a cheap enough cost to still turn a profit with regular taxation.

 

[unmerged(209891)]

I like this system more, makes playing as a vassal really feel different than being independent.

 

[Hroppa]

It would be nice if players could decide their own level of troops that they're willing to give to their liege when levies are raised, rather than having it determined automatically by opinion. The more troops you give, the better your liege's opinion. (Ideally, there'd also be an option to promise to raise & command your own troops to help out in your liege's conflict, but this would be very hard to implement and prevent cheating.) If you say "No troops at all!" then that should involve declaring an independence war against your liege, since you're breaking the feudal contract.

 

[Tempestra]

I'm sympathetic to Paradox's argument but I think the big ahistoricalities, such as France's inevitable conquest of Iberia, are basically down to this. The reason Phillipe Capet is always crusading in Andalusia, rather than sitting in Paris and sulking as he did historically, is that historically there was no way he could summon massive armies from his vassals - the relationship between him and them was a legal formality, and they didn't feel bound to answer his summons for troops. It's also responsible for the HRE's ahistoricality early conquests of the Baltic pagans (and the lesser ahistoricality which dictates that the lord who profits from that conquest tends to be the Emperor, not the feudal lords with territory neighbouring the pagans).

Generally lords are less powerful vis-a-vis vassals than they were in CK1 but this is a huge exception. I think that a mod that addressed it would give more historical results.

 

[flame7926]

If opinion needed was higher, the percentage of levies that you got wasnt as much, then it would be better. What are the feudal levies laws of the hre at the start of the game?

 

[unmerged(91409)]

+1

When I started reading about CK2's plot system, I immediately thought about A Song of Ice and Fire (A Game of Thrones) and the Civil war that erupts there. A Lord is only as powerful as his Allies, and has to constantly balance their relations so they don't tear each other, or him, apart! A powerful family can turn the tide of a war by simply *not* showing up to battle, as per the example about with Edward I.

Vassals making a bold statement against their Liege such as this would have dire consequences IF the Liege survived, if he didn't, it could reap rewards - especially if you declared for the usurper.

 

[rashtrakut]

This is much more sophisticated than CK1
- the levy sizes depend on their opinion of you. If they hate you the levies are not going to be that big so it does the liege no good.
- the time limit for the levies raised too long is pretty short, probably because the vassals are starting to lose money. That affects their loyalty and the opinion modifier survives for a bit after the levies are disbanded.
- at some point you will get events from the vassals asking for compensation. If you refuse, revolt risk just went up.

It is not perfect, but it is not a freebie for the liege

 

[spinach]

Also, in CK1 your realm could get invaded by a massive foreign army, and a couple of lords within your realm would do nothing while the invaders tried to take over the whole kingdom. Sure, some nobles might prefer to bide their time or take advantage of a chaotic situation, but they wouldn't just let themselves be conquered or have their lands trampled and ruined by raging hordes from who-knows-where.

And if the nobles didn't do something, someone else would.

Having your vassals send at least a token force (if I understand CK2 right) makes more sense than them sitting there watching a hostile army as if it were some medieval movie.

 

[spinach]

The thing I I'll miss most from CK1 is not having to raise ships in order to transport your troops across water (you had to pay for it, though, which is fine). Realistic or not, building transport ships has just been a chore in other strategy games I've played. Hopefully this won't be a headache.

 

[Tempestra]

+1

When I started reading about CK2's plot system, I immediately thought about A Song of Ice and Fire (A Game of Thrones) and the Civil war that erupts there. A Lord is only as powerful as his Allies, and has to constantly balance their relations so they don't tear each other, or him, apart! A powerful family can turn the tide of a war by simply *not* showing up to battle, as per the example about with Edward I.

Vassals making a bold statement against their Liege such as this would have dire consequences IF the Liege survived, if he didn't, it could reap rewards - especially if you declared for the usurper.

The current model seems to model it fairly well with the exception that all the vassal distress is back-loaded - that is, they're happy to show up initially, but will gradually get more annoyed. I agree that annoyance should build over time, but the idea that it is impossible for the vassal to object initially no matter how much he hates you seems silly.