Fuel and Resource Mod: Requirements Document and RFP

[Commissar Yossarian]

My guess is that Paradox will devote some time to bug fixing for a month after release while at the same time podcat will work on a new DLC that should be ready around Christmas. And, if the engine is not completely unfit, one thing that is going to change is the oil issue which makes the game (in my opinion) broken.
IF I am right you should wait until September and maybe beyond.

While your concern about the engine is right, it appears that Paradox made a very deliberate decision to remove Fuel from the game. I would be suprised, not that it won't happen, but I would be very surprised if Paradox did a 180, added Fuel and tacitly admitted they failed to build the game they wanted at launch after all the delays.

I think the game as published will need some polish, but likely be a very 'fun' game. I'm not suggesting that any mod team will magically fix a 'broken' product and do what they couldn't do. I expect the engine to handdle adding crap like Fuel etc, even if it isn't graceful. The #1 challenge in my mind is how to train the AI to cope with something like Fuel and variable equipment attrition rates.

I have a plan for game balance vs stockpiling, but that hinges on the guts of the engine of course. I have no plan how to teach the AI to pick a strategy, form an economic plan to achive that strategy, and still react well to global events.

I cannot speak for others, but my summer in terms of modding effort would be entirely devopted to understanding the AI and mapping it's algorithms. Work on 'new' things would be months out. I'm hopping others will start in their areas of interest mapping the other parts of the engine so we can properly reverse engineer it before starting on new modules etc.
The level of complexity demands building both a requirements and interface document as well as maintaining a proper set of documentation for the various modules, both in engine and as part of the mods.

Hope this clarifies things a bit.

 

[Marfach]

While your concern about the engine is right, it appears that Paradox made a very deliberate decision to remove Fuel from the game. I would be suprised, not that it won't happen, but I would be very surprised if Paradox did a 180, added Fuel and tacitly admitted they failed to build the game they wanted at launch after all the delays.

I think the game as published will need some polish, but likely be a very 'fun' game. I'm not suggesting that any mod team will magically fix a 'broken' product and do what they couldn't do. I expect the engine to handdle adding crap like Fuel etc, even if it isn't graceful. The #1 challenge in my mind is how to train the AI to cope with something like Fuel and variable equipment attrition rates.

I have a plan for game balance vs stockpiling, but that hinges on the guts of the engine of course. I have no plan how to teach the AI to pick a strategy, form an economic plan to achive that strategy, and still react well to global events.

I cannot speak for others, but my summer in terms of modding effort would be entirely devopted to understanding the AI and mapping it's algorithms. Work on 'new' things would be months out. I'm hopping others will start in their areas of interest mapping the other parts of the engine so we can properly reverse engineer it before starting on new modules etc.
The level of complexity demands building both a requirements and interface document as well as maintaining a proper set of documentation for the various modules, both in engine and as part of the mods.

Hope this clarifies things a bit.

I have a few notions on how to get the AI to properly use the new resources.
SteelVolt confirmed in a dev diary that if you add new materials to the game (Heavy artillery was used as an example) the AI will know to assign factories to build heavy art if it has any divisions using it and furthermore will add H-Art to its own templates if it makes sense according to its own internal algorithms from looking at its stats.
With this in mind the AI should be able to handle fuel just like it handles any other resource.
The difficulty I see in this mod will be getting fuel to attrition when fleets/divisions are moved, but if it is possible to set equipment requirements for ships it could be quite elegant and if fuel can be attrition'd at a different rate to general division attrition it should, hopefully, all come together.

 

[Commissar Yossarian]

So using Fuel is relatively straight forward, I agree. Variable attrition rates are much more challenging. Then try and teach the AI how to cope with variable attrition rates. Say training is 6%*DivisionRequirement/Month, Moving is x%/km (calculated from province to province, with available fuel being deducted before the move is allowed) , Combat is 3%DivReq/day.
If the current system is binary for attrition (on/off) then the as is AI won't handle production vs stockpiling well.
Next you have to account for air operations and naval operation tempo. Lets say for the sake of argument the factory distribution is balanced out to give countries refining/stock pile capacity. Then you need to train the AI to adjust it's economic development and policy to mesh with it's future plan. Does Germany have a 6 month combat reserve of fuel and it thinks it only needs 5 to get to the oil fields? Then less stock pile capacity should be built and more refineries should be targeted to come on line when the new oil fields are captured.
Is the country supply constrained? Then large reserves is more important than throughput, and the natitional strategy needs to be tuned to cope with a few months of high tempo operation followed by a build up period before the next operation. The opposite country (like the USA) needs to focus on throughput, even if it's very inefficient early on, they need the capacity later in the game so they can continuously pressure their foe to break their back and colapse their industry.

But none of these things can be really examined in detail until we have access to the game and figure out how the mechanics and AI work.

Right now I'd love to collect a set of proposals outlining the goal and a proposed plan of getting there. Think of the algorithm you will need to implement to translate the idea into math the computer can solve. Map out the process and create a flow chart. We have a 40000 ft view of the game, so we need to keep ideas high level, then drill down into the game and have a honest (brutally honest) review of the proposals over the course of the summer.

Cheers

 

[Marfach]

A larger issue I foresee is that the AI scripting (from what I've seen) does not allow for maths at all. My worry will be that there won't be an effective way to 'call' an external function to actually implement fuel use and stockpile estimates. If we can't do that then the AI will very much be on rails and anything that a player does to derail it will cause the AI to descend into absurdity, Germany's endless Norweigen hordes dying of frost bite and starvation come to mind.
Creating an AI that projects its desired or expected consumption of various resources is easy, whether this can even be implemented in game is an entirely different story.
I'm optimistic about the project as a whole but I do see a lot of ways it can go wrong that might require some very cumbersome 'code monsters' to work around.

 

[Cardus]

While your concern about the engine is right, it appears that Paradox made a very deliberate decision to remove Fuel from the game. I would be suprised, not that it won't happen, but I would be very surprised if Paradox did a 180, added Fuel and tacitly admitted they failed to build the game they wanted at launch after all the delays.

I think the game as published will need some polish, but likely be a very 'fun' game. I'm not suggesting that any mod team will magically fix a 'broken' product and do what they couldn't do. I expect the engine to handdle adding crap like Fuel etc, even if it isn't graceful. The #1 challenge in my mind is how to train the AI to cope with something like Fuel and variable equipment attrition rates.

I have a plan for game balance vs stockpiling, but that hinges on the guts of the engine of course. I have no plan how to teach the AI to pick a strategy, form an economic plan to achive that strategy, and still react well to global events.

I cannot speak for others, but my summer in terms of modding effort would be entirely devopted to understanding the AI and mapping it's algorithms. Work on 'new' things would be months out. I'm hopping others will start in their areas of interest mapping the other parts of the engine so we can properly reverse engineer it before starting on new modules etc.
The level of complexity demands building both a requirements and interface document as well as maintaining a proper set of documentation for the various modules, both in engine and as part of the mods.

Hope this clarifies things a bit.

Sure do what what you wish. I just said what I was thinking

 

[Axe99]

My guess is that Paradox will devote some time to bug fixing for a month after release while at the same time podcat will work on a new DLC that should be ready around Christmas. And, if the engine is not completely unfit, one thing that is going to change is the oil issue which makes the game (in my opinion) broken.
IF I am right you should wait until September and maybe beyond.

I do think that if PDS are going to move on logistics, it'll be earlier in the DLC cycle - it's a fairly foundational thing, so if it's not in the first expansion or two, it's likely going to become too unwieldy to work a better model in. That said, I'm not sure they do plan on changing it, so having ideas about how to work it in, in some way, I don't see as a waste (at the very least, it's something to do while we wait for HoI4 ). Hopefully, we'll know what's in the first expansion at about the time we're ready to start tinkering with things, so have an idea where PDS will be going, moving forward (hopefully we'll get a DD not long after launch like the Stellaris DD yesterday, giving us an idea of what's coming - if fuel/logistics isn't there, then we probably know it's something for modders rather than DLC).

 

[tommylotto]

Random thought -- podcat mentioned that equipment from a disbanded unit goes to other units needing that equipment type in the same state before going back to stockpile. So, in a mod where fuel was an equipment type, you could have new units called "fuel depots" that had little or no combat value but had tons of fuel equipment. When your units start to slow down from lack of fuel, disband a fuel depot and the units in the same state would be immediately resupplied with fuel. Obviously, this is just brain storming and probably will not work. But it might and would allow a player to pre position resources for an offensive.

 

[Commissar Yossarian]

It would be a neat way of going about it, but I'd like to see if we can add supply dumps et al. on map like forts, so they can be destroyed by aerial bombing etc first. Though I could be completely wrong about how the air campaign will work so hang onto that thought.

On map untis for supply side tinkering could be really great though depending on how the game works out.

 

[Cardus]

I do think that if PDS are going to move on logistics, it'll be earlier in the DLC cycle - it's a fairly foundational thing, so if it's not in the first expansion or two, it's likely going to become too unwieldy to work a better model in. That said, I'm not sure they do plan on changing it, so having ideas about how to work it in, in some way, I don't see as a waste (at the very least, it's something to do while we wait for HoI4 ). Hopefully, we'll know what's in the first expansion at about the time we're ready to start tinkering with things, so have an idea where PDS will be going, moving forward (hopefully we'll get a DD not long after launch like the Stellaris DD yesterday, giving us an idea of what's coming - if fuel/logistics isn't there, then we probably know it's something for modders rather than DLC).

I partially agree as, if there is something really broken in HOI 4 is exactly the logistic/supply "system". I mean that the fact that fuel do not exist (it is "abstracted" in the production) is a consequence of the fact that supplies and logistic do not exist. There might be 2 reasons for that: 1) the engine is not able to cope with that and there are no remedies 2) the development of that feature requires some time and it is, at the current stage, not feasible. If 1 is true HOI4 will be broken forever, if 2 is true my guess is that Paradox will try to fix the game in one DLC.

PS
Maybe "abstracting" could be sometime a good idea but, also, could imply very peculiar results. Apart from supplies and fuel see what happens when planes are abstracted: paratroopers and bombs are just teleported...

 

[Marfach]

I partially agree as, if there is something really broken in HOI 4 is exactly the logistic/supply "system". I mean that the fact that fuel do not exist (it is "abstracted" in the production) is a consequence of the fact that supplies and logistic do not exist. There might be 2 reasons for that: 1) the engine is not able to cope with that and there are no remedies 2) the development of that feature requires some time and it is, at the current stage, not feasible. If 1 is true HOI4 will be broken forever, if 2 is true my guess is that Paradox will try to fix the game in one DLC.

PS
Maybe "abstracting" could be sometime a good idea but, also, could imply very peculiar results. Apart from supplies and fuel see what happens when planes are abstracted: paratroopers and bombs are just teleported...

It is not an engine limitation, it is a design choice.
The supply system we have currently isnt really too bad and the reason they moved to this was that most players simply did not understand the HoI3 supply system which made the game very inaccessible. The current supply system rather than moving discreet supplies simply gives every division a number between 0 and 100 (call it n) depending on the local infrastructure, ports etc and the unit will receive n% of its needed supplies each day.
I've been very critical of Paradox in a lot of threads but I actually think they created a semi-reasonable compromise here although I still think there should be more focus on the transport of supplies from core territories to occupied territories rather than the "grass" system as a poster in the logistics mega-thread illustrated.

 

[Cardus]

It is not an engine limitation, it is a design choice.

How can you be so sure about it?

The supply system we have currently isnt really too bad and the reason they moved to this was that most players simply did not understand the HoI3 supply system which made the game very inaccessible. The current supply system rather than moving discreet supplies simply gives every division a number between 0 and 100 (call it n) depending on the local infrastructure, ports etc and the unit will receive n% of its needed supplies each day.
I've been very critical of Paradox in a lot of threads but I actually think they created a semi-reasonable compromise here although I still think there should be more focus on the transport of supplies from core territories to occupied territories rather than the "grass" system as a poster in the logistics mega-thread illustrated.

In a matter of opinion everybody is right. The point is that, this so called "design choice", implies paradoxical things such that a ship or a tank is build with its fuel embedded for all the life span. In addition, this choice implies that you eat because you have a mouth not because you take food.
In fact, for example, if you have a division in a place oversea you don't need to send over there the supplies but it is sufficient that the division is somewhere next to a port. Does that makes sense?

 

[Marfach]

How can you be so sure about it?

They are using the same engine as HoI3 which had a completely different supply system.

In a matter of opinion everybody is right. The point is that, this so called "design choice", implies paradoxical things such that a ship or a tank is build with its fuel embedded for all the life span. In addition, this choice implies that you eat because you have a mouth not because you take food.
In fact, for example, if you have a division in a place oversea you don't need to send over there the supplies but it is sufficient that the division is somewhere next to a port. Does that makes sense?

The architecture of the supply system is reasonable, is the point I was trying to make, I won't defend the decisions to omit fuel or to omit discreet supply and equipment transportation. You are right, the fuel system is absurd and you can search my posts to see exactly how I feel about it. I think that there is the makings of a good supply system in what they currently have, but botched the execution. The n% supplied system could have worked if it was possible to intercept equipment and fuel in transit on the seas, and if logistical bombing was implemented to destroy infrastructure. This could still have reduced micro-management but give players a broader set of tools.
I dont have any issue with micro-management but I know many people do so features that can reduce micro-management without losing game-play features are a win imo. The battleplan system is a good example of that, the AI being able to execute your plans for you is a great idea, even if the planning bonus is a bit of a controversial issue atm.

 

[Mamluke]

Just keep in mind that the system is most likely set up so raw resources go into factories, and you get equipment as a result. The devs haven't stated that it's possible for factories to create raw materials, or for equipment to be used as a raw material to make other equipment. If that's indeed how the system works, you would need to either have fuel be an on-map resource like oil, or make a new building like the synthetic plant that generates fuel out of nothing.

wait, what about synthetic industry?

hmm now that I think about it, synthetic industry doesn't even need inputs to produce oil and rubber, right?

regardless, that Building type could be useful for this problem

 

[Cardus]

They are using the same engine as HoI3 which had a completely different supply system.

As far as I know, please correct me if I am wrong, HOI IV engine is quite new and it is based on a newer version of Clausewitz used for developing CK2 and EUIV

If I am right it could be that the engine is the problem

 

[Marfach]

As far as I know, please correct me if I am wrong, HOI IV engine is quite new and it is based on a newer version of Clausewitz used for developing CK2 and EUIV

If I am right it could be that the engine is the problem

Hmm, I would have assumed the capabilities would be similar if not the same but you might be right

 

[Commissar Yossarian]

@Axe99
This is a little off topic, but for your expanded ship set mod do you think it's better to have separate ship types for light convoy escort, or to make them part of the convoy?
Since ships cannot follow a flotilla anymore for escort purpose it'd be nice to have DDE or the like embedded in a convoy as close escort.
As ships don't get upgraded or have equipment distribution would be tricky, but it would allow for proper convoy defense without having to have a fleet stationed in each sea zone.

 

[Axe99]

@Axe99
This is a little off topic, but for your expanded ship set mod do you think it's better to have separate ship types for light convoy escort, or to make them part of the convoy?
Since ships cannot follow a flotilla anymore for escort purpose it'd be nice to have DDE or the like embedded in a convoy as close escort.
As ships don't get upgraded or have equipment distribution would be tricky, but it would allow for proper convoy defense without having to have a fleet stationed in each sea zone.

This is a good thought, but it really depends how the system works and I want to give it a good play, and get on top of the things we can and can't mod, before deciding either way, particularly as locking in DEs to convoy escort duty means they wouldn't be available for escorting CVEs and similar. Thanks for mentioning it . Once HoI4's out, and we know how CORE's going to work, I'll be throwing ideas around and listening to others in the modding sub-forum (as I'm sure we all will be about fuel and logistics ).