(FTM) Should Neutral Italy attack Vichy France?

[DABegley]

I am playing my first FTM campaign game as Italy and am at a cross-roads. It is July 1939 and I have annexed Yugoslavia, Albania, Greece and Bulgaria. I have also puppeted Ethiopia and Romania. I was lining up to blitz Turkey when she offered me military access, I figured that would save me time and troops as I only really wanted land access to attack France and the UK in Syria/Iraq/Palestine and later to attack Russia in the Caucasus so I accepted. Germany has rolled over Poland and Denmark and is setting up to attack France. I am neutral.

I can either get involved in the France attack or stay neutral until after France falls. As I thought on that it occurred to me that I could stay neutral and blitz Republican Spain while France and the UK were busy. They probably would not get involved...I hope. I also thought of the question, can I declare war on Vichy France while neutral without Germany getting involved? I could then annex Vichy France and all France's African and Middle eastern possessions without having to deal with the UK...I hope. This would join my Italian and planned Spanish territory, allow me to attack Gibraltar and seal the straights as I would have Tangiers, and also give me the ability to quickly seal Suez attacking from Syria. I would join the Axis later when it would be most advantageous for assisting in Barbarossa.

I have read a few strategy guides that advocate attacking Vichy but they say to do it after joining the Axis and waiting until Germany is occupied with Barbarossa so you can over-run France before Germany can get troops back to steal the turf from you. Is staying neutral, waiting for Vichy to form and then attacking a viable strategy or is there something I am missing?

Thanks.

 

[Oof]

One thing you need to consider in your plans is that you cant attack from neutral territory even if you have military access. So the access the Turks gave you, will only have merit when they are at war with France or Vichy France or when you create a beachhead on the Turkish border. I.e. SRD the bulk of your forces to the Turkish border and move them into your beachhead. The downside is that as long as your forces are in Turkey, they are out of supply and slowly will lose org and eventually strength if org reaches zero. So any move like that needs to be a fast move!

Leaving France to the Germans sounds like a good plan. It will give them the LS and IC they need to attack the USSR. If you DOW France when Germany attacks the French, you’ll end up with a truce with Vichy and you can’t DOW en for some time (I think 6 months). I would DOW France anyway and set as war goal Tunesia, a month later Algeria and if possible another month later Morocco and DOW Vichy as soon as the truce expires (if there is no German guarantee). The thing is that the USA will DOW Vichy as soon as they are at war and the Germans will fire the Anton event and get Vichy. Might as well beat them to it.

The thing you need to check is whether the set-up of Vichy comes with a German guarantee. If the Germans have guaranteed Vichy the could DOW Italy theoretically. But if they would, I really don’t know. Especially if you’re part of the Axis it’s hard to predict how the AI would react. You can check if Vichy has a German guarantee in the Diplomacy screen after its set-up or by checking an old saved game.

In my experience you can do as you like in Europe if the UK is occupied by the Axis. As long as the UK isn’t occupied by one of the Axis powers, I wouldn’t recommend an occupation of Spain. Either the British or the US will invade Spain and you don’t know where, which means your reserves are too far of, so by the time you get there they will already have a sizeable bridgehead with lots of troops. Besides that Spain needs lots of units to defend against seaborne invasions, troops to guard against partisans, while it renders little IC and LS. Overall the cost-benefit ratio is negative!

 

[DABegley]

Hum, I did not know you can't attack out of a neutral even with military access. I am an EUIII player just starting HOI III and I do that all the time in EU III. That changes the whole picture. I guess what I will have to do is either cancel access and puppet them or move my troops into Turkey and naval invade a Syrian province on the border of Turkey. I could then move my land troops through that province, as you suggest, into the rest of Syria which I could annex and use to launch attacks on the UK provinces. I was trying to avoid any interference by the UK or French boats. It ialso complicates things that military access does not allow supply access, I did not know that either, it is a learning process.

If you do not invade Spain can you still block the straights of Gibraltar? I thought you had to own both Tangiers and Gibraltar to block the straights? That was the only reason I was going to invade Spain so I could attack Gibraltar by land and block the straights. If I don't invade Spain and take Tangiers first why invade Gibraltar at all?

Won't the German war goals take precedence over mine? I have read in some threads that in Barbarossa the Italians are always blocked out of any territory gain by the Germans taking the Bitter Peace. Even if Italy designates territory as their war goals they get nothing in the peace. I had assumed that would be the case with Vichy as well but it sounds like I am wrong.

Thanks.

 

[Kovax]

There are a couple of provinces that Italy can claim which will not go to Vichy, but there is nothing of value in them. You're better off waiting until Germany defeats France, and then you can beat up on Vichy for some almost free IC, resources, and Leadership. Problem is, a lot of that former French territory will belong to "Free France", not Vichy, so you won't get it.

If you join the fight before France falls, the truce will totally prohibit an attack for the next 6-12 months, and require a major force balance in your favor to pull off for the next few years after that. If they station their meager remaining forces on the border, you'll probably have to stack up way more troops of your own to overcome the truce, even after the initial 6-12 month wait. If you wait until France falls, then join the Axis, any guarantees by Germany won't be enforced against an ally (you), and you can take the rest of continental France almost unopposed.

 

[DABegley]

So my current re-vised plan is to cancel attacking Spain, cancel the Military Access through Turkey and puppet her and wait until France is Vichyed. If there is no guarantee by Germany attack while neutral. If Germany guarantees Vichy, join Axis and attack quickly to try and conquer before Germany gets involved. Thanks.

 

[Afganitia]

Well, if you enter the axis before the start of wwii, you acquire territories all North Africa plus Pacific Islands. Then you dow Vichy France with limited war after a year, which will not bring Germany to the war. With 3 divisions is enough.
If you are neutral, never dow Vichy as they are guaranteed by Germany. Enter the axis and limited war. Getting turkey is important or maybe not. Depends on your Africa campaign.
When you dow UK, you will need troops in Africa. With turkey Iraq and middle east you can directly deploy everywhere in Africa. You need turkey, and you will get extra IC and leadership by having African colonies non overseas. However, this means you will have to fight with Russia in caucasus. This is positive for the axis, but demands preparation. What's more, then you will get a special effect that gives research efficiency.

All in all, Vichy is good to conquer as Italy. Blitzkrieg it. That leadership and IC is needed as Italy. Compliment it with UK Islands.

BTW, you need troops in both sides of a strait to block it, be it Gibraltar or suez.

 

[DABegley]

"BTW, you need troops in both sides of a strait to block it, be it Gibraltar or Suez."

That leads back to my previous question, if I can't block the straights if I only hold Gibraltar, why invade Gibraltar at all unless I also invade Spain or bring them into the war on my side? Afganitia's statement implies I need to hold Spanish territory in Africa to block British ships from the Med. and also that the British cannot block me from leaving the Med. without Spanish African provinces. Not that I really want to leave the Med. anyway. If I need Spanish turf to block Gibraltar and they are Republican I may as well invade them but I will puppet them instead of annexing. Easy land access to Gibraltar and I can put a couple Divs in Tangiers to block the straights. I should be able to block the straights in a couple days after war declaration.Spain can watch their own turf with help from me...I hope. BTW I have played a little bit more and Turkey is now my puppet, works out much better supply wise and access to Syria/Iraq is easy but I need to have a pile of troops watching the Caucasus come Barbarossa. I may regret both these moves later but it will be entertaining. Thanks.

 

[Afganitia]

"BTW, you need troops in both sides of a strait to block it, be it Gibraltar or Suez."

That leads back to my previous question, if I can't block the straights if I only hold Gibraltar, why invade Gibraltar at all unless I also invade Spain or bring them into the war on my side? Afganitia's statement implies I need to hold Spanish territory in Africa to block British ships from the Med. and also that the British cannot block me from leaving the Med. without Spanish African provinces. Not that I really want to leave the Med. anyway. If I need Spanish turf to block Gibraltar and they are Republican I may as well invade them but I will puppet them instead of annexing. Easy land access to Gibraltar and I can put a couple Divs in Tangiers to block the straights. I should be able to block the straights in a couple days after war declaration.Spain can watch their own turf with help from me...I hope. BTW I have played a little bit more and Turkey is now my puppet, works out much better supply wise and access to Syria/Iraq is easy but I need to have a pile of troops watching the Caucasus come Barbarossa. I may regret both these moves later but it will be entertaining. Thanks.

Spain is good as puppet if you conquer Gibraltar. If the threat is high enough, and you hold Gibraltar you can get them to axis, but if they are republican attack them. Is a pain, as they have huge nu. Blocking the med is good because th English cannot enter and you gain Gibraltar effect.

 

[DABegley]

Proceeding on with the puppet/military access topic, why do my puppets (Turkey, Romania) keep offering me military access? Does it do me any good to accept it or will it mess me up if I do? Also I was reading some puppet threads and the issue of supply through a puppet was discussed, have I messed myself up by puppetting Romania and Turkey as supply for any Russian action and invasion of Syria/Iraq will now go through my puppets and thus will be very limited? Can I get around that by taking Russian and Syrian ports which I hope will then let me draw supply by convoy through the ports?

Thanks.

B.T.W. The invasion of Spain is on and I have taken almost all of the Barcelona area and am advancing on Zaragoza. A second invasion is about to hit Valencia and drive toward Madrid. I still intend to puppet her which I will probably regret but will be fun to play out. Hitting European (from Spain and Italy) and African (from Tangiers and Libya) Vichy France from two sides almost doesn't seem fair.

 

[Kovax]

It's already unfair. Vichy is only allowed a token army, and you can crush it with a little over a single Corps (been there, done that, with just one Corps).

You should be able to bypass Romania and Turkey by grabbing a port beyond them. Making Romania a puppet can be beneficial if you don't destroy their existing army in the process, since they've got enough troops to help out against the Soviets, and you still get a lot of oit. If you wreck the army during your invasion, then you might as well annex instead. In my opinion, if you can annex a country early, do so; if later, then there's not enough time to really benefit from the extra Leadership and IC, and their army "as-is" will probably be more useful.

 

[DABegley]

Good, once I block Gibraltar and Suez I can run supply to all the Med. and Black Sea ports with impunity. I puppetted Turkey in August 1939, Romania in late 1938. Romania's army was basically unscathed while Turkey's army took more damage but was fairly intact. I hope to puppet Spain quickly with the upcoming Valencia invasion striking for Madrid while the Barcelona beachhead pins down most of the army. So I think those three are OK to puppet in those situations. I assume that with Turkey not annexed all my African possessions are still "Over-Seas" and get the 90% leadership production penalty even after I over-run Syria/Palestine/Iraq/Egypt. That may be a reason to annex Turkey in future games, unless the leadership production is so small from Ethiopia/Libya etc. that it really doesn't matter.

Thanks.

 

[wubbeyman]

you want to attack Vichy asap for the MASSIVE buff that is the Turkish straight. leave mainland france excluding the coast for Germany.