FTM 3.04: Fall of Nat China (1936 scenario)

[ElVince]

in all my games in the 1936 scenario, china falls in a bit more than 1 year, a total push over. Is there anything we can do to balance that a bit? how is it as allies we cannot help china?
how could we simulate the massive military aid sent by the allies?
could we create a burma corridor bonus, as long as japan does not hold burma that gives a big production bonus to china?
a few events for massive militia help at the beginning of the war?

 

[comsubpac]

what does "in all my games" mean? i have seen several games were japan gets pushed out of china or needs years to accomplish anything. don't forget that as long as japan is engaged in china they leave the US alone.
btw, i think china already gets a bonus when they loose enough VP provinces.

 

[ElVince]

I played 3 games with russia, 1936 scenario, and eveytime it is the same thing that occurs. Japan rolls over all of china. which country did you play? 1936 scenario as well?

 

[damnt512]

it's probably random whether china can hold their ground or not.
in my current game as UK with the same version as yours (it include the scenario too), china pushed japan as far as shanxi after half of their country had fallen, a true miracle, now china (including the warlords) are in the allies. well they reached an almost unbreakable stalemate in shanxi, but US is currently invading korea, if they keep pushing inland eventually the stalemate would break, one more step towards total victory against axis

 

[comsubpac]

I played 3 games with russia, 1936 scenario, and eveytime it is the same thing that occurs. Japan rolls over all of china. which country did you play? 1936 scenario as well?

3 games? come back when you played 50 or more...

 

[Darkrenown]

Here's my current HO game:

While not looking too happy they are still about in late '42.

 

[Liquid Ghost]

I was surprised to see that there is a strategy effect for Sino-Soviet cooperation, maybe one should be created for the German-Chinese partnership?

 

[Syntalynder]

3 games? come back when you played 50 or more...

Guy has a right to report issues. Japan steamrolling Nat China has actually been problem since before FTM and is a known issue.

 

[comsubpac]

Guy has a right to report issues. Japan steamrolling Nat China has actually been problem since before FTM and is a known issue.

but it does not happen all the time and that is the important thing. in fact it happens far less now.
just look at what darkrenown posted above.

 

[ElVince]

3 games? come back when you played 50 or more...

come on 3 full games since 1.04 game out meaning 4 days ago... sorry if I cannot play play faster than that
I don't trust fast games playing haiti or switzerland, I prefer to play the game entirely and see what happens.

now the important thing is , are others finding the same issue?
yes dark posted one game where nat china does not get crushed.. but it seems to be juste one game.

If you add my 3 games with the 3 games of another and from another one again, then we have a trend, and this is all I am trying to see. Are others encountering the same issue in the Chinese theatre?
I doubt that 3 out of 3 games is pure luck, especially as it always happens very fast and relatively in the same maner.

Again it is the 1936 scenario, which used to be bad for nat china in SF, and there I am talking about hundreds of games...

What Dark and you are saying is that sometimes it does not happen as I describe it, which is great, I am glad to hear that. But do you think it is as it should be?

 

[comsubpac]

come on 3 full games since 1.04 game out meaning 4 days ago... sorry if I cannot play play faster than that
I don't trust fast games playing haiti or switzerland, I prefer to play the game entirely and see what happens.

now the important thing is , are others finding the same issue?
yes dark posted one game where nat china does not get crushed.. but it seems to be juste one game.

If you add my 3 games with the 3 games of another and from another one again, then we have a trend. and I doubt that 3 out of 3 games is pure luck, especially as it always happens very fast and relatively in the same maner.

Again it is the 1936 scenario, which used to be bad for nat china in SF, and there I am talking about hundreds of games...

well, at the moment we have 3 games on one side 1 on the other. that's already a ratio of 3:1 which is not bad. the point is that you can only say what really happens after several hundred tests.
i have done quite a few and i have seen extremly different outcomes. sometimes one side wins then the other. sometimes it goes fast sometimes slower. once or twice japan even reinvaded.
the important question is how often does what happen. maybe japan gets defeated too often despite the changes they made since semper fi and maybe not. three games is just not enough to come to conclusions...
again, all we know yet is that is does sometimes happen and that is totally okay.

 

[ElVince]

let's see what others add to these odds then
let's hope that it falls 3:1 in favor of Natchi! go china go!

 

[wright1331]

Here's my current HO game:

While not looking too happy they are still about in late '42.

This does seem like a rare oddity though
In 3.04 i'v ran 4 hands off games in 3 of them the war was over within about 14 months (give or take a few weeks) and the other one took just over 2 years. But in each and every game China fell fast.

While this may be disturbing (it almost has to happen this way for their to be a decent pacific theater), its not the bigger picture. With the current settup Japan needs to beat China in order to have any chance against the US. The problem is there needs to be a way to balance the war with China and still have the Japanese able to put up a good fight Vs the US. I have never seen this in Vanilla, the only time I'v seen it balanced decent was in a mod (possibly HPP I think).

 

[Axe27]

The problem with China is this:

Historically, the Chinese fought tooth and nail, throwing in their best divisions into the battles of Shanghai, and Wuhan, to exhaust Japanese manpower. The Battle of Wuhan, especially, utterly exhausted the Japanese. While the Chinese were able to absorb the 225,000 casualties they suffered, the Japanese did not effectively recover from the 160,000 or so casualties until 1944. It was a Pyrrhic victory for the Japanese that stopped the war for 6 years, until the next major offensive by the Japanese (Operation Ichi-Go) in 1944.

This, unfortunately, is extremely tough to model in HOI3, which is why the Nat. Chinese usually end up biting the dust so quickly (I've seen them go down in less than 4 months before in FTM).

 

[unmerged(304296)]

Japan's war against China was the catalyst for the Pacific War. The historical sequence of "Events" was (1)Japan's Army initiates the war, believing it will be relatively easy, with China being a collection of warring factions. (2)It turns out NOT to be easy and drags on and on. (3)Japan's Army blames "outside interference" (couldn't possibly be that they were grossly in error) and starts to take over the ports along the coast. (4)When France falls and Vichy is formed Japan takes advantage and occupies Indochina to eliminate it's potential as a supply conduit to China. (5) The USA, which has been getting increasingly angry over Japan's actions against China organizes an oil embargo against Japan which it will only lift if Japan leaves Indochina and China. (6) Japan's Army, faced with a choice between accepting status as a second-rate power and war, as was expected, chooses war.

As such, the proper balance for Japan's war in China is as crucial as the balance for Germany/Poland or Germany/France.

 

[ElVince]

This does seem like a rare oddity though
In 3.04 i'v ran 4 hands off games in 3 of them the war was over within about 14 months (give or take a few weeks) and the other one took just over 2 years. But in each and every game China fell fast.

this is exactly what I experienced... so 7:1 it seems

As such, the proper balance for Japan's war in China is as crucial as the balance for Germany/Poland or Germany/France.

I could not agree more

 

[Lamahorse]

Here's my current HO game:

While not looking too happy they are still about in late '42.

I've played numerous games, and China always loses in a year. Fixes I think that might help,

Upon the annexation by Japan of that green state near Manchuko, the country should go over to Nationalist China because when they annex the country, the whole territory pops over to Japan leaving all the Chinese and Communist Chinese forces without supply. Japan then just steamrolls China. Perhaps split the annexation on the lines of the current frontlines or add more victory points in this state on Nationalist China's side. Even give them 100% NU!

Actually another issue that I think needs address is the random batshitcrazy invasions the Allies seem to do, early in the war. I'm currently playing a game as France (VH) and I'm facing German doomstacks on my border. Britain and Germany have been trying to influence Luxemburg into their factions since 1936 which is such a waste of their leadership. When Germany DoWed Poland, Britain landed over 30 divisions in northern Denmark for some reason and there is heavy fighting on the Danish peninsula. The Australians and Kiwi's are hell bent on suicidal attacks on German ports. Landing 3/4 divisions at a time just to have them chewed up by the Germans.

The change to the AI is a double edged sword. From my Chinese game, I've discovered it's completely impossible to successfully invade Japan without an airforce now as leaping for the VPs doesn't quite work anymore. The AI can respond well to an invasion, meaning it will bomb it into submission and surround the beach head entirely before eliminating it. But these random pointless invasions by the UK, Aussies and Kiwi's in my Frence game seem stupid especially when France is still fighting tooth and nail on the Maginot.

Actually as a interesting side point, France is much more difficult now to play. The low leadership, national unity and IC makes being ready for the German doomstacks interesting. Also I'd also love to see the German / Axis AI being more aggressive. If a neutral nation is in the way of their enemies, they should be eager to invade the country inbetween them. Currently a neutral Belgium and Netherlands is keeping Germany out of my unfinished extended Maginot line.

 

[Spruce]

I agree with Elvince, when you take 3 games and see Japan pushover in China, there's an issue.

The problem is not that Japan defeats China, that easely, the problem is that Japan wants to pushover - or totally defeat China.

Historically Japan wanted to keep China in check and bring enough instabilty to the huge neighbouring country just to keep them quiet. Japanse army command was totally aware that Japans resources were so limited they couldn't take out China, USA, UK and Australia ...

I agree that sometimes Japan should want to pushover China in a gaze of insanity, but in the majority or even half of scenario's Japan should be more conservative in taking out China. I mean such a huge country, I really doubt if it was possible to totally subdue it.

Perhaps a "bitter peace event" would be more satisfying, were China would sue for peace and Japan would also be very happy to sue for peace under some conditions.

So the matter comes down to "why is Japan so stupid to want to totally defeat China ?". I've seen games before FTM were Japan finally subdues China, and then the Yankee invasion fleet sweeps away all of Japans ambitions.

 

[TerminusStop]

So the matter comes down to "why is Japan so stupid to want to totally defeat China ?". I've seen games before FTM were Japan finally subdues China, and then the Yankee invasion fleet sweeps away all of Japans ambitions.

I think it's like you said, there's no real mechanism for the japan AI to use, except conquer the whole thing, so perhaps a bitter peace type event is the way to go. So far I think it's the best suggestion so far.

 

[Sinbuster]

I agree that sometimes Japan should want to pushover China in a gaze of insanity, but in the majority or even half of scenario's Japan should be more conservative in taking out China. I mean such a huge country, I really doubt if it was possible to totally subdue it.

I agree with much of what you're saying Spruce, and in particular the above quote, though I would say impossible to subdue, at least within the timeframe of the game. The logistics of conquering the entirity of China is beyond the scope of any military save a chinese one, and especially so for a mid 20th century Japanese army fighting, in essence, overseas. Still, for the sake of sandbox play, I'd give a small, 5% chance for Japanese forces reaching Chongqing and effecting a bitter peace prior to 1944 - and I'm being grossly generous.

Not sure how Paradox can create the stalemate that occured in China without hindering the Japanese AI in some fashion. That seems doubtful. A mod from the community is more likely.